Let's chat Grotz and Moonclan

[Warboss Gorbolg]

Spears vs Stabbas

Now that the Destruction herald has been previewed, I find myself looking at Moonclan again.  The general rule for Moonclan Grots has been for large units, spears over stabbas.  However, now that I'm looking at it more closely, it seems that the options are more or less equal.  Let me know what I'm missing!

Both options have the same rend and damage.

Stabbas: 4+/4+ = 0.5 * 0.5 = 0.25 wounds per attack

Spears: 5+/4+ = 0.33 * 0.5 * 1.5 (50% more attacks b/c 3rd rank can also attack with 2" range) = 0.25 wounds (normalized)

[Malakree]

Isn't it 4 rows that the spears can attack in? 

To get the extra row? Could be wrong.

[Skumbaagh]

I have no experience of moonclan  myself but I really like the longer reach for my brutes with twohanders. Very easy to pile in and get most to attack. Also I like the look and feel of the spears better when it comes to the moonclan grots. 

[Warboss Gorbolg]

16 hours ago, Malakree said:

Isn't it 4 rows that the spears can attack in? 

To get the extra row? Could be wrong.

The only way that I can get to a 4th row with hexagonal packing is if you measure from the back edge of the base of the first row to the front edge of the 4th row.  I'm assuming that this is incorrect.

If you assume that the front rank is base to base with the enemy, with the 25mm rounds, I measure that with 1" stabbas, you just barely clip the 2nd rank with hexagonal packing.  With 2" spears, you get a 3rd rank.  The 2nd rank with the stabbas is so close that I'm wondering how most people play it.

I'm pretty new to this which is why I wanted to post.

1 hour ago, Skumbaagh said:

I have no experience of moonclan  myself but I really like the longer reach for my brutes with twohanders. Very easy to pile in and get most to attack. Also I like the look and feel of the spears better when it comes to the moonclan grots. 

I played WHFB some and because of the Battle for Skull Pass, all I've seen for the last decade are spears!  As a result, the stabbas have a lot of appeal to me.  I also appreciate that the various stabbas make them look a bit more like rabble and disorganized, like I imagine Grots to be.

[bsharitt]

4 minutes ago, Warboss Gorbolg said:

The only way that I can get to a 4th row with hexagonal packing is if you measure from the back edge of the base of the first row to the front edge of the 4th row.  I'm assuming that this is incorrect.

If you assume that the front rank is base to base with the enemy, with the 25mm rounds, I measure that with 1" stabbas, you just barely clip the 2nd rank with hexagonal packing.  With 2" spears, you get a 3rd rank.  The 2nd rank with the stabbas is so close that I'm wondering how most people play it.

Yeah, there's not way to get a fourth rang. A 25mm round base is slightly less than 1", so base to base you're just getting the third rank on 2" reach with square packing and the hexagaonal doesn't come close to giving you the nearly an inch you'd need to get a 4th rank.

[Malakree]

My mind is telling me that in perfectly optimal situation you could get slightly more than +50% with correct staggering and spacing but even if that is true (I could definitely be wrong) the gain would be minimal and impossible to achieve in any real situation. 

Primarily you would use spears because it is easier to get more out of them and just use in general. 

Also are there any hit buffs and how do they influence the probabilities. 

Ignore damage rend and to wound as they are all the same. 

0.33 x 1.5 against 0.5

With a +1 it would be 4+/3+

0.5x1.5 (0.75) against 0.66

+2 is then 3+/2+

0.66x1.5 (0.99) against 0.84

 

So the answer would be that any increase in the chance to hit, say damned terrain, makes spears better.

[Warboss Gorbolg]

15 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So the answer would be that any increase in the chance to hit, say damned terrain, makes spears better.

I had not thought of that and it's a good point.  However, at least currently, Moonclan don't have a way to boost hit rolls easily or reliably.  So I would see this as a minor bonus for spears.

What about the fact that stabbas allows one to stretch across the board more effectively as you don't need to bunch up as much for combat?  Perhaps stabbas better for movement denial, while I guess spears are probably better to park on an objective as a big blob.

It seems that unlike many units, Moonclan Grots can achieve pretty similar results regardless of how one arms them.  That's pretty cool.

[Sheriff]

anyone notice that one of the seldom-used fanatic heads has mushrooms growing from his scalp? This portents good 

So after initially doing pretty well with grots (6 wins, 2 losses), I've now been brutally crushed a few times, mainly through silly mistakes that I've learned from, but also due to many grot units simply being unreliable, including:

• Fanatics rolling terribly, even 6 of them together. Failing charge rolls (2s, 3s inch rolls), terrible wounds even after rolling 18 attacks!
• spiders doing very few mortal wounds even when buffed to do them on 5s to hit
• spiders being squishy in combat, seldom achieving that desired super-strike that slaughters a unit and gets no hits back after.
• shaman rolling 1 on his mushroom and doing nothing for a turn
• arachnarok getting befuddled on mystical terrain (he is so big its not always easy to not be near it)
• Bravery. oh my christ bravery. EVERYTHING is awful bravery, even after buffing with Bellowing Tyrant. Death armies wreck goblins (and even the arachnarok) with bravery shenanigins, battleshock is brutal most rounds, especially for my precious spider riders (expensive, squishy, bravery 4 ) 
• Squishiness across the board, with the army getting wiped out in a turn if I don't position right. 
• Destruction allegiance move ability seldom works
• Gutstomper allegiance is unreliable, and opponents are sometimes adamant that its not allowed in matched play when it is. 

On the plus side, these guys have been reliable after many games of experimentation:

• Grot netters - they just always perform well, and cannot die til the unit dies. they even hit pretty well, suprisingly. They stop some nasty attacks getting my dudes too, and seem to irritate enemies most games. 
• Arachnarok is good versus everything basically, and the only somewhat tanky unit grots have. When I'm not messing up positioning he is great, frequently. 
• Grots being sneaky and avoiding combat are great for objectives, and just getting enemy front lines and netting them. 
• The spider general. Tough little dude, sits back mostly handing out buffs (that don't require rolls)

So basically I would love some advice, as grot players yourself, or as opponents who have fought them - what changes should I make as I work my way up to 2000pts? 

My current plan, given the above issues, is to build on the strengths, and just be careful with positioning and risk generally to mitigate the weaknesses:

• Add  another arachnarok, because why not, I lack tanky reliability, and they deliver it in spades, as well as crowding out the table to protect the lame goblins behind them. Adds another roll to Destruction allegiance move. 
• Add a load more grots, because a unit of 60 will become brave (most likely a bravery of 9 after it gets whacked, this would be amazing), and gives more MVP netters, and even more damage (which will be novel for those guys, compared to 20 of them), and won't be squishy and die in a turn. 
• Keep the fanatic to a minimum (3), treating them as a bonus unit that might do some damage, but don't rely on it, plus can sometimes heroically sacrifice itself when i get charged by something particularly scary. 
• Add a shaman as a throw-away caster that will probably die but I won't rely on him. Adds another roll  to Destruction allegiance move. 
• Something else? 

List I'm aiming for is:

• Spiderfang general
• 2x arachnarok with shamen
• 1 moonclan shaman
• 10 spider riders
• 15 spider riders
• 60 moonclan grots
• 20 moonclan grots
• 20 moonclan grots
• 3 fanatics (in the 60)

Feedback appreciated! 

[Sheriff]

On 27/12/2017 at 11:07 PM, Malakree said:

Isn't it 4 rows that the spears can attack in? 

To get the extra row? Could be wrong.

The problem I've had is that using movement trays you go from 3 rows of spear attacks to 2, because the move trays have a rim round them. (its 1.96 inches for the 3rd row normally, just over 2 inches with move trays)

I tend to explain this to opponents and offer to ditch the move trays if they prefer. 

[Malakree]

33 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

Destruction allegiance move ability seldom works

This is something which really annoys me. It should be 4+ across the board with a 2+ on the general. The 6+ is just so unreliable it makes the extra heroes not worth it. Plus it requiring the 6" range and forced charge if something is within 12" is just really limits it's usefulness.

What it could really do with being is something like all units within 6" of a hero roll a d6 and on a 4+ get 6" of movement. This is improved to a 2+ for any unit within 6" of the general.

[Sheriff]

1 minute ago, Malakree said:

This is something which really annoys me. It should be 4+ across the board with a 2+ on the general. The 6+ is just so unreliable it makes the extra heroes not worth it. Plus it requiring the 6" range and forced charge if something is within 12" is just really limits it's usefulness.

What it could really do with being is something like all units within 6" of a hero roll a d6 and on a 4+ get 6" of movement. This is improved to a 2+ for any unit within 6" of the general.

Yeah I don't rely on it, I treat it as a bonus if it happens. I figure that if you have plenty of heroes it could become reliable at 2000pts, as you get about 4-5 rolls. 

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, Sheriff said:

Yeah I don't rely on it, I treat it as a bonus if it happens. I figure that if you have plenty of heroes it could become reliable at 2000pts, as you get about 4-5 rolls. 

As an IJ player who runs 4 heroes it really doesn't. Then there's that time you get 3 in a single turn and your goregruntas get 18" of movement followed by the ironfist, followed by 9" of base movement followed by a charge roll. 

Opponent sits there and calls ****** while you agree with them.

[Sheriff]

Just now, Malakree said:

As an IJ player who runs 4 heroes it really doesn't. Then there's that time you get 3 in a single turn and your goregruntas get 18" of movement followed by the ironfist, followed by 9" of base movement followed by a charge roll. 

Opponent sits there and calls ****** while you agree with them.

So this comes back to my reliability problem - how do you make destruction armies reliable? Or at least somewhat reliable. 

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, Sheriff said:

So this comes back to my reliability problem - how do you make destruction armies reliable? Or at least somewhat reliable. 

Well I guess you could always just change it so that all destruction units get d6" of movement in the hero phase....

[Warboss Gorbolg]

2 hours ago, Sheriff said:

So this comes back to my reliability problem - how do you make destruction armies reliable? Or at least somewhat reliable. 

For many many years, extra randomness, often the the detriment of Destruction (I.e. Orcs and Goblins), has been considered a "feature" by GW.  I don't see this changing, at least for Moonclan, Gitmob and Greenskinz, as I believe that GW thinks this is a core characteristic of these factions.   In WHFB, O&G were considered a poor army for competitive players because of their randomness.

[Sheriff]

Just now, Warboss Gorbolg said:

For many many years, extra randomness, often the the detriment of Destruction (I.e. Orcs and Goblins), has been considered a "feature" by GW.  I don't see this changing, at least for Moonclan, Gitmob and Greenskinz, as I believe that GW thinks this is a core characteristic of these factions.   In WHFB, O&G were considered a poor army for competitive players because of their randomness.

And I totally get this, and like it, I just don't feel that the pendulum swings one way as much as the other; it seems that a single bad roll will just implode your battle, and this happens way more often than that hilarious roll that wins for you. 

I'm not competitive, I just like reasonably fair fights that are forgiving enough to allow 1 bad roll per game. 

Regardless, I will keep trying to make my destruction army a bit more reliable. 

[Warboss Gorbolg]

1) I'm struggling to get excited about Fanatics.  They seem expensive for an unreliable one-use unit.  I'm thinking that it may be a better investment to spend the points on other offensive oriented units to "accompany" the big blocks of Grots.  I also struggle with how expensive big Moonclan units are along with Fanatics (460-560).

2) My going theory for the best use of Fanatics might be to hide them in 20 man units of Grots that are just meant to get to your closest objective and park them there.  Seem like they could be a nasty surprise for many small, fast but relatively fragile units that might try to get into your backfield.

3) I'm finding it hard to keep Grot heroes alive.  Low wounds and poor saves.  The regular Warboss in particular seems overcosted. 

Just starting my Moonclan journey and need more experience with...everything!  Right now I'm heading in a Grot + Fellwater direction.

[bsharitt]

3 hours ago, Warboss Gorbolg said:

1) I'm struggling to get excited about Fanatics.  They seem expensive for an unreliable one-use unit.  I'm thinking that it may be a better investment to spend the points on other offensive oriented units to "accompany" the big blocks of Grots.  I also struggle with how expensive big Moonclan units are along with Fanatics (460-560).

2) My going theory for the best use of Fanatics might be to hide them in 20 man units of Grots that are just meant to get to your closest objective and park them there.  Seem like they could be a nasty surprise for many small, fast but relatively fragile units that might try to get into your backfield.

3) I'm finding it hard to keep Grot heroes alive.  Low wounds and poor saves.  The regular Warboss in particular seems overcosted. 

Just starting my Moonclan journey and need more experience with...everything!  Right now I'm heading in a Grot + Fellwater direction.

I think they're one of those units that either more than pay for themselves or you wasted points on them with little in between. When they prevent your grots from getting tied up so they can go grab and objective or kill some high value hero your opponent was protecting, they could be the difference in winning the game.

All the unmounted warbosses being tied up in the same warscroll sucks and really hurts the plain old metal one, he's probably worth 80 points(which I think they were in the old GHB). It'd be nice if they separated them into at least two warscrolls with the one with the giant cave squig being 120 points and the rest being 80.

[Sheriff]

See my earlier post for similar fanatic rage.  The more i use them the more they seem better suited to intercepting nasty charges and just sacrificing themselves. 

I've also got some trolls to test out more but I'm worried about their bravery. If one dies then the remaining 2 could just run away instantly. A major waste of 180 points if so, and hardly helps fix the unreliability issue that moonclan have.

Im guessing that the faction is design to have loads of weak heros, and not be reliant on a general for synergies beyond turn 1 or 2 once the big beasts have been thrown at the enemy. 

[Warboss Gorbolg]

24 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

See my earlier post for similar fanatic rage.  The more i use them the more they seem better suited to intercepting nasty charges and just sacrificing themselves. 

I've also got some trolls to test out more but I'm worried about their bravery. If one dies then the remaining 2 could just run away instantly. A major waste of 180 points if so, and hardly helps fix the unreliability issue that moonclan have.

Im guessing that the faction is design to have loads of weak heros, and not be reliant on a general for synergies beyond turn 1 or 2 once the big beasts have been thrown at the enemy. 

Regarding Troggoths, I agree that they seem more squishy than some assume.  Just 4 wounds and 5+ saves means that it's not real hard to kill 1.  I do think that the bravery issue is partly mitigated by the fact that they are 4 wound models.  In my limited experience, you're often just testing on the d6+1.  If you lost more than 1, they are in big trouble anyway.  Last game I kept Inspiring on them until my grot general was easily sniped.  Regardless, my unit of 3 Troggoths took out a min unit of Endrinriggers, a gunhauler and a khemist!

Lots of weak heroes sounds fine to me, as long as they are appropriately pointed.  The fact that the Warboss with slicer is only 20 points cheaper than a megaboss is nuts.

[Malakree]

6 minutes ago, Warboss Gorbolg said:

Lots of weak heroes sounds fine to me, as long as they are appropriately pointed.  The fact that the Warboss with slicer is only 20 points cheaper than a megaboss is nuts.

And lets be fair, the megaboss himself is overcosted for what he is. Really makes a mockery of the Moonclan boss though 

[Dave Fraser]

With GHB 17 what trait & item have people been running with Moonclan?

GHB16 I used bellowing & battlebrew (yeah surprise right), I'm actually tempted to leave this unchanged for '17 but haven't been running my moonclan the last few months so will be my first run out with them tonight.

[Warboss Gorbolg]

I like the idea of Bellowing + Talisman.  However, until I figure out how to protect the General better, I'm going with Brutish and Talisman.  I really don't want to lose Inspiring Presence for the allied Troggoths or some other key unit.

[Warboss Gorbolg]

What size base did Everyone use for Skarsnik?  I'm thinking of using a 75x42 oval but I don't have one on hand to check the fit.  Skarsnik comes with a 60x40 rectangle and overhangs a bit.

[bsharitt]

Well right after I order the old Moonclan shaman, they announced mushroom head. Now I've just ordered up by initial batch of squigs and hearders, so plastic squigs are probably going to get announced any day now. You're welcome.