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WSDdeloach

Concerns with ITC...

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So, at this moment the ITC for AoS is running straight out of the GHB. But, after the LVO they are talking about removing random initiative. Going back fo a more traditional you go, I go. 

I find this disturbing, cause one the game is so new.. It's an infant. The U.K. has from what I understand ZERO issue with the mechanic. In fact I believe this is one of a few reasons U.K. Scene has a higher player quality on average. Willing to build around core mechanics and finding tactics to anticipate opponent's turns makes for better players & games. 

So, reason I'm ranting... I want to support the ITC for AoS. But if this goes to a community vote. I'd like to see it voted down. I know some U.K. Players think it doesn't effect them. But the ITC is making a big push (with GW support) for U.K. Events. 

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Well, ummm...

I can't say I disagree. I mean the double-turn can literally lose you the game at a key moment, and means that any forward planning is worthless. On one hand, I've always had the view that the best general is one who adapts when the situation just keeps twisting and turning, and still comes out on top. I think that's a general British mentality, really.

The US scene always seems to be about building up a really clever combo strategy and executing it, as seen in 40K and by the fact that WMH and Magic are so astonishingly-popular there, because they both live and breathe that. The game is less about reacting and countering an opponent, and more about having a strategy and executing it.

The real question is whether it really matters. Does it really ruin the game that much to remove it? Hardly "disturbing."

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I'd hate to see that mechanic leave. You have to plan for winning OR losing the initiative, and balance out the gambles you are willing to take. Sometimes it doesn't go in your favor. I had my opponent on the fence in my last game, but didn't win a single initiative roll. I will grant you my opponents skill and a slew of bad dice rolls on my part made it go to a tie where he won in models killed. 

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I dunno, it really makes the opening turns dull unless one of you is incredibly-fast, as both sides just jostle around waiting for a good chance to charge. Against shooting armies that surprise extra turn can spell the difference between having a chance to get some damage in, or having your army get ripped to shreds. :/

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I dunno, it really makes the opening turns dull unless one of you is incredibly-fast, as both sides just jostle around waiting for a good chance to charge. Against shooting armies that surprise extra turn can spell the difference between having a chance to get some damage in, or having your army get ripped to shreds. [emoji32]


Shooting does seem super strong with the double turn. At least with combat it still breaks down to taking turns picking units


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A couple interesting things to think about regarding double initiative...

If you go second, it is impossible for your opponent to have a double turn before you do. As the player going second, if the risk is too great to let your opponent have a double turn, you can just choose to not take it when you have the opportunity, and it's unlikely that your opponent will force you to take the double. So from that understanding, making an army with as few drops as possible is definitely a viable strategy to ensure that you get to make the call regarding initiative order. Debuffs also work twice as effectively during a double turn, as most last until your own next hero phase, so if you can debuff the opponent, when they take a double, they'll be penalized for two game turns, instead of one.  It also leads to interesting late game decision making, "do I give my opponent the double turn, which allows me to go last and hop on objectives, or do I keep it alternating so that they don't get a double, but they can also act last."

When you play strictly you-go-I-go, it means that as a melee army against a shooty army, you have almost no chance of getting into combat before your opponent has shot twice, which I've found to be a huge problem. The double-turn keeps alpha strike armies from being the only way to play.

I've found that 40k veterans in particular have huge issue with the random initiative, but players from systems with non-standard activation order (like Bolt Action or Antares) are far more accepting, and also much better equipped to handle it.

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Yes - that's an advanced tactical option that many people fail to notice - choosing NOT to take a double turn the first time you have the opportunity.  Excellent point.

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1 minute ago, amysrevenge said:

Yes - that's an advanced tactical option that many people fail to notice - choosing NOT to take a double turn the first time you have the opportunity.  Excellent point.

And it's a hugely important decision. In addition to denying your opponent the chance for a double, if you're a combat army and most of your stuff is engaged, you probably don't need the double turn, so don't take it, you're going to attack at full effectiveness during their turn and won't need to re-cast any of your buffs.

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18 minutes ago, thediceabide said:

I've found that 40k veterans in particular have huge issue with the random initiative, but players from systems with non-standard activation order (like Bolt Action or Antares) are far more accepting, and also much better equipped to handle it.

I've never played 40k or any of the other games, AoS has been my first. And I love the double-turn. Just for the fact that it is there. You always have to plan on either getting the double turn or losing it and defending your army as best as possible. Seems like one of the more thematic rules in the entire game.

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Feels like ETC all over again.  A small group of people with a solidified opinion and no room for experimentation.  

40K players should have less issue, because in their world going first often means getting a good advantage.  With random initiative the person going second at least gets an opportunity to catch up.

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Being to AoS and GW in general. what is the ITC and why would we care?

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Independent Tournament Commission

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15 minutes ago, Dez said:

Independent Tournament Commission

Independent Tournament Circuit.

 

18 minutes ago, chord said:

Being to AoS and GW in general. what is the ITC and why would we care?

The reason to care is that at least in the US, they have the most say in how people play 40k. A major part of me quitting 40k was due to people being unwilling to play non-ITC format games, even in friendly matches, and forget about tournaments. They use democracy as a method to make changes to the core game, so generally speaking, if it favors a popular army, it is more likely to pass, if it nerfs an over-stated threat, it is more likely to pass, so your army and how you play the game is based purely on opinions. On top of that, anyone can vote, and it is super easy to vote multiple times, so if someone is a 40k player who played AOS once and didn't like double turns, you can bet they'll vote to change it.

Also, with their podcast, they can easily sway the opinion of the people who vote on their site, and the surveys they use for the vote are not always written in a way that hides any bias they may have themselves.

That said, I really like the guys, I just think their format has gone too far from the core rules.

Edited by thediceabide
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Some armies greatly benefit from  my turn your turn my turn, others not so,  

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In their podcast they said "They are not changing the rules, and not looking to change the rules from the GHB".

This is a false rumor.

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I think this is an excellent discussion to have. I shared the same concern after listening to the Ninth Realm podcast. While I enjoy their cast and am happy they're fully adopting AoS, their rush to proclaim certain elements (initiative rolls, shooting while in combat, etc.) invalid for competitive play was quite concerning. It seems that their 40k background might be slanting their views a bit, as these rules might be pretty shocking in 40k but really are not out of place at all in AoS.

I think it's important that players at LVO and in other ITC events speak up about maintaining the base ruleset (or not) and make their voices heard. The last thing we want is for a small group of people who had a couple bad experiences with double turns speaking for the collective whole who generally enjoy the mechanic.

I do think the ITC provides a nice toolbox for TO's to pull from for running events, and the reach of ITC could potentially help grow the size of our player base, which are both good things. 

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3 minutes ago, thejughead said:

In their podcast they said "They are not changing the rules, and not looking to change the rules from the GHB".

This is a false rumor.

This is true for this LVO. They're going to have a vote at LVO as part of a gauge for whether or not to keep these mechanics moving forward for ITC.

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Please listen to their podcast. They said they had zero plans and they are not voting at the event. 

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34 minutes ago, thejughead said:

In their podcast they said "They are not changing the rules, and not looking to change the rules from the GHB".

This is a false rumor.

I posted this as they did state "after LVO, in the 2017 season they're going to looking into mod/comp for the following season." Please re listen.. It's the episode on rules 

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He mentioned last weeks podcast and directly said they had no intention.  Also, he followed up his comment in the thread of forum of the podcast, https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/11/03/the-ninth-realm-insert-title-here/#comments

 

"How in the blazes does everyone get from the cast that we’re talking about changing anything, lol? We said multiple times that we weren’t changing anything, haha. 

Glad you’re enjoying the cast but sheesh, I said at least three times that it was just talk not a plan to change anything.

Thanks for the feedback on playing the game and getting more experience though, too true. I had a chance to hang out with and chat with Rob quite a bit and he certainly did know so much more about the game than we did, it was cool to talk to him."

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1 hour ago, thejughead said:

Please listen to their podcast. They said they had zero plans and they are not voting at the event. 

Yep, completely agree that they have no plans to change for this season, you are correct. They will be using straight GHB at the LVO in 2017, which is great.

However they do state in the cast that they intend on polling the attendees about certain mechanics and that their responses might influence potential changes in the future. 

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3 hours ago, Dez said:

Independent Tournament Commission

Holy ******. That's a thing?  Wow, the egos! Man, just play the game and have fun.  smh

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3 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Holy ******. That's a thing?  Wow, the egos! Man, just play the game and have fun.  smh

Circuit, I made a typo. Not sure why I keep thinking commission haha!

Tournaments are still a thing, they aren't going away. I think the object is to create a level playing field. 

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Eh I mean having been on the receiving end of a shooty army with a melee one, I definitely think shooting is way too strong.  But I'm also against swathes of house rules, especially the ITC style of pushing competitive gaming for a non-competitive game.  So not sure where I stand on this.

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I played a bit of kill team (40k) after starting in age of Sigmar and thought the seize the initiative thing must happen every turn ! 

I really like the initiative roll mechanic, I think as others have said, it introduces a dynamic to the game that 'a good general' should plan for. I get that you want to write a list and have a plan, but most plans don't survive enemy contact etc, it's being able to deal with it that marks the better player (in my humble opinion)

Aos is not truly igougo anyway because of the combat phase. I actually think it's a pretty good compromise on igougo and alternative activation.

Its true that you could loose a game on turn 2 to a double turn, but with straight alternating turns you could conceivably lose the game on the opening initiative roll

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