Ghoul King's Command ability in Matched Play

[wayniac]

So I am planning out what I need to add to my Flesh-Eater Courts to make a solid 2k point list (at which point I'll likely move to a different army) but I'm curious how everyone deals with the fact that, in Matched Play, you need to set aside points to summon.  I find that I usually want to spend points on what I know I'll get, not what might show up, so as a result I find that my poor Ghoul King basically has no Command Ability because it's summon a new unit, so you need to put points aside for it.

How do you deal with that?  Are you content with the basic command ability from the 4-page rules, or is it worth it to consider points towards being able to summon?  Or does he really not even need a command ability because he's so good at everything else he does?

[Lysandestolpe]

Well, I don't know how your list looks like, but I know that some of the vampires have some bad-ass abilities that can make your FEC fly (not literally) across the battlefied or gain +1 attack for all melee weapons for the turn. I don't think you have to make the Ghoul King your general just because you include him. I would get at least one Vampire lord on foot or Abyssal Terror and use either one as your general. 

and how awesome and "fluffy" isn't a vampire that's behind the terrorising of the lands?

[nuttyknatty]

Hey wayniac.

For me, the issue with the ABK command ability is let down by how small those units they can summon are. I just can't see 10 Ghouls or 3 Horrors doing anything that scary. Flayers may be handy with their movement but I have to agree, they are nothing to write home about!

The ABK on a Zombie Dragon's ability may be a little better, what with being able to summon a Varghulf, but I've yet to be convinced.

Best bet is to stick Inspiring Prescence on a big unit of Ghouls I reckon.

At least it makes the decision to maybe forgo the ABK as your general and give that title to another hero more of an option?

[wayniac]

From a rules standpoint maybe, but from a fluff one I am hard pressed to make anyone other than the King the general, because after all he's the KING.  Clad in golden armour, scarlet cape fluttering in the wind, riding his mighty dragon steed at the head of his resplendent army of noble soldiers.  I like to run a pure army, so for me that's pure FEC and the King if fielded (almost always) always has to be the army General, no other Death factions (although I did briefly think of adding a unit of Morghasts as "angelic messengers from God") because I can't figure out how to make them fit the narrative (I haven't quite figured out how to include them as "noble allies" or some such to the mad Ghouls)

[deynon]

Personally I find the ability to summon quite strategic for different reasons:

1) they are not requiring  dice throws, it means you cna decide exacly to have them when you need them

2) even basing on magic you have to remember that you play scenarios where you have to control objectives, so being able to conquer/contest them and have the right choices (some scenarios require Hero, other battlelines and so on) it helps the versatility of the army and give boost

3) I personally use the GKoT cause I like to summon the horrors behind the enemy lines cause they are perfect to distract the enemy units, manace the machines, eventually also small units and hunt, or as support. Just that the opponent has to diverge it's own attnetion and dedicate forces elesewhere from the main front I think it's a great advantage and I like to use it.

The last point probably is cause I always loved to evoke wolves with my Von Carstein to "say hello" to dwarfs warmachines and imperial artillery and mages^^

[Mr.Moe]

Don't forget the Command Traits are quite nice on the GK. Red Fury or Ruler of the Night on a GkoZD is pretty impressive, I wouldn't want to put those on a lonesome Vampire, only if he was on top a ZD aswell.

[Lord Graves]

Deynon hit the needle on the nose there. The benefit of being able to summon units allows you to have a very diverse force from game to game.

Say you need zombies for this game to hold objectives? Plop two 10man(20 if you roll good) units on an objective and voltron them. Forcing your enemy to have to fight to take the objective. 

Next you have the wolves like Deynon pointed out. 

Most of the players I have taken advice from suggest you keep at least 320 points reserved in a 2k list. This is so you can summon a zombie dragon or terrorgheist if you don't have need of any other specialist units.

Sure summoning takes points away from your initial list, but it allows you to tailor your list to what you need at the moment. It is a powerful tool if used correctly. Also of interest is that the summoning of the unit does not break your battalion bonuses. Really cool things with Death so far and we still have a lot of fleshing out to go. I personally can't wait to see the Deathrattle book when it is released in 2020.

 

[Relentless]

The whole mechanic sounds really fun in my opinion.

 

I am assuming Summon points can be used to add additional minis to units that have not suffered casualties via the courtiers special abilities and you just work out the individual model points to remove from the pool?

Also? What about something like this leaving you the exact amount of points to Summon a ZD/TG and 3 Horrors...

Leaders
Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)
- General
- Trait: Ruler of the Night
- Artefact: Cloak of Mists and Shadows
Crypt Haunter Courtier (120)
Abhorrant Ghoul King (100)

Units
Crypt Ghouls x 20 (200)
Crypt Ghouls x 20 (200)
Crypt Ghouls x 10 (100)
Crypt Horrors x 9 (420)

Total: 1540/2000
 

 

[deynon]

About the summoning of ZD and terror I would like to remember that those are only the GA:D version possibility, not the flesh eater version

[Grimnaud]

Summoning only really comes into full effect when you're summoning from the entire GA:Death pool, as @deynon mentioned above. In a pure FEC army (and one where you only want to use and summon FEC units), it's pretty worthless in matched play. In open or narrative play, the king summoning wave upon wave of ghouls to do his bidding is fluff-awesomeness. In matched play the small units sizes and lack of movement the turn they are summoned really limits the worth of summoning FEC. If you're looking for deployment shenanigans then the Ghoul Patrol Battalion does a better job. 

[deynon]

46 minutes ago, Grimnaud said:

Summoning only really comes into full effect when you're summoning from the entire GA:Death pool, as @deynon mentioned above. In a pure FEC army (and one where you only want to use and summon FEC units), it's pretty worthless in matched play. In open or narrative play, the king summoning wave upon wave of ghouls to do his bidding is fluff-awesomeness. In matched play the small units sizes and lack of movement the turn they are summoned really limits the worth of summoning FEC. If you're looking for deployment shenanigans then the Ghoul Patrol Battalion does a better job. 

Ehm... but I summon horrors with teh GKoT^^ 

I agree about Ghoul Patrol Battalion but it's also a lot of points so not always it's avalaible as option. 

What I indicated with my previous post is that the rules are different in the models related to the books, so the FEC:B terrors and DZ doesn't let evoke them, while in the GA:D yes, but they are also related to different profiles, so to keep it in mind.

Moreover I don't think that those DZ and terrors from GA:D are not FEC, cause they have the same Keywords so it's a choice which version to use.

[Grimnaud]

1 hour ago, deynon said:

Ehm... but I summon horrors with teh GKoT^^ 

I agree about Ghoul Patrol Battalion but it's also a lot of points so not always it's avalaible as option. 

What I indicated with my previous post is that the rules are different in the models related to the books, so the FEC:B terrors and DZ doesn't let evoke them, while in the GA:D yes, but they are also related to different profiles, so to keep it in mind.

Moreover I don't think that those DZ and terrors from GA:D are not FEC, cause they have the same Keywords so it's a choice which version to use.

Whups! Bit of misrepresentation there. Sorry. I was reading Lord Graves post and didn't read yours thoroughly enough.

 

Summoning Horrors into the backline is very handy, especially since it is guaranteed to go off, and can't be dispelled, but you are stuck to a table edge. Summoning Morghast Harbringers, with their 3ds charge, or a large zombie unit to claim an objective would open up even more flexibility.

 

I don't have the generals handbook with me, but does the Beasts of the grave versions even have points? If not then summoning them is out in matched play. And the Beasts of the grave and FEC versions are definitely not interchangeable.

[deynon]

1 minute ago, Grimnaud said:

Whups! Bit of misrepresentation there. Sorry. I was reading Lord Graves post and didn't read yours thoroughly enough.

 

Summoning Horrors into the backline is very handy, especially since it is guaranteed to go off, and can't be dispelled, but you are stuck to a table edge. Summoning Morghast Harbringers, with their 3ds charge, or a large zombie unit to claim an objective would open up even more flexibility.

 

I don't have the generals handbook with me, but does the Beasts of the grave versions even have points? If not then summoning them is out in matched play. And the Beasts of the grave and FEC versions are definitely not interchangeable.

I don't think such summons are a problem. I mean: horrors have the ability to be eovked and distract and catch different units, and are quite useful for little units or as stoppers, but compared to the Morghasts have 2 great advanteges: 

1) they are much cheaper (you can summon 2 times them against 1 the morghasts

2) you don't need to roll simply to call them

That doesn't mean they're better, simply they are suitable to different options and possibilities. About zombies siencerly I prefer to evoke them in small units to merge with the yet present ones on the battlefield. But this is my way to play ffor now where I prefer not to use pure FEC.

 

About the points, simply doesn't exist the problem, there is not referring to battletome or GA, simply Flesh Eater units, so the same points are avalaible for both versions with no problems about it. So at the same points you can have deply terror from FEC:B or from GA:D, but if you summon it, it can only be GA:D cause the FEC:B version doesn't have the rule who allows it. 

 

You are right they are not interchangeable, but you are a bit wrong too, cause you don't do it, you choose wich one to use. 

And it's perfectly legal too cause even GW has written in the FAQs that you can choose the rules to use for the units if they have more versions.

Obviously you have to declare it before to be correct.

The FEC units have such advantage : there are two different versions so you can choose wich ones are prefereable. At least for now it's so.

[Grimnaud]

1 hour ago, deynon said:

I don't think such summons are a problem. I mean: horrors have the ability to be eovked and distract and catch different units, and are quite useful for little units or as stoppers, but compared to the Morghasts have 2 great advanteges: 

1) they are much cheaper (you can summon 2 times them against 1 the morghasts

2) you don't need to roll simply to call them

That doesn't mean they're better, simply they are suitable to different options and possibilities. About zombies siencerly I prefer to evoke them in small units to merge with the yet present ones on the battlefield. But this is my way to play ffor now where I prefer not to use pure FEC.

 

About the points, simply doesn't exist the problem, there is not referring to battletome or GA, simply Flesh Eater units, so the same points are avalaible for both versions with no problems about it. So at the same points you can have deply terror from FEC:B or from GA:D, but if you summon it, it can only be GA:D cause the FEC:B version doesn't have the rule who allows it. 

 

You are right they are not interchangeable, but you are a bit wrong too, cause you don't do it, you choose wich one to use. 

And it's perfectly legal too cause even GW has written in the FAQs that you can choose the rules to use for the units if they have more versions.

Obviously you have to declare it before to be correct.

The FEC units have such advantage : there are two different versions so you can choose wich ones are prefereable. At least for now it's so.

Regarding summoning Horrors, I'm not saying that it is never useful, only that I personally consider summoning Horrors a suboptimal use of the points in matched play. To get the most out of their abilities, and the abilities of the support characters they need to be within range of a Ghouls kings preroll bubble, and a Hauter or Varghulf Courtiers muster bubble. I find that easier to accomplish if they are not summoned from a table edge, effectively either being out of play for one or more turns or summoned first turn and most likely torn apart while the rest of my army is out of range. There's nothing wrong with any style of play as long as you follow the rules, I personally just don't think it's as effective as summoning either generic GA:Death units, or deploying them normally, where I can get a bigger unit.

 

When it comes to summoning Terrorgheists and Zombie dragons, in open play I have no problems with it. Whatever floats your goat. Use whatever version of war scroll you feel like. In matched play however, then I would disagree.

It is in my opinion not an open choice which of the two you use. Only the version in the Flesh-Eaters Court battle tome has been given points, and only that version is available for matched play. There are two reasons why I believe this to be the case; 1) The points given are listed under the Flesh-Eater Courts headline, a very strong indicator that you can gain the Flesh-Eater Courts allegiance by using the units listed under that headline. Only one of the two has the Flesh-Eater Courts keyword making this allegiance possible, and that's the non-summonable one. 2) The points given are surely meant to be either directly tied to the units abilities, or to be a strong indication of them. Why then, should two different war scrolls, where one is superior to the other, cost as much? The one listed in the GA:Death tome under Beasts of the Grave (a headline that does not exist in the generals handbook), can be summoned, has a better shriek, and can heal even when not within 5" of a ghoul king. Why should they cost the same amount of points? The FAQ, to the best of my recollection came out before the release of the generals handbook, and refers to open play, not matched. I'm not trying to be insulting here, but if I came across that in a tournament setting I'd wave the ref over for a ruling, as in my mind it would be cherry-picking war scrolls to your advantage. 

[deynon]

Unlucky we not match in the points analysis, always unluckyly I'm used to be a torneist and I'm quite used to see the rules blending so the question when you say that the units flesheater from GA:D are not pointed is: where is it written?

Cause if you see in the GK it names the Flesh Eater Courts, not the Battletome and if you go to see the GA:D those same units are Flesh Eater Courts: so there is no difference.

Morever ther eiis the FAQ that allow you to choose without worry and it is for almost all the units of the Flesh eater Courts included both in the GA:D and Battletome. 

ie. GKoT has also the Keyword related so you can virtually choose wich one to play.

In case of the Beast monsters the problem is a bit different and that there is the name. And the units are identified base on the name. 

Don't worry, I don't think is a trying to insult, only that if we go talking about tournaments...beh, the problem is the ruling about the tournament cause the only edge problem is related to the Dragon Zombie and Terrogheist alone, but all the other units have the option to can be choosen and even to be played in both version at the same time.

And you can't use the referring to be out before the GH cause it's so for almost everyunit. Moreover some units are in the compendium, but they are categorized differently form they own key owrds. 

i.e. if you'd want to play Vlad von Carstein he is under the "Vampire counts" in the compendium section of the GH, based on what you say cause it's not referring in the description to "Vampire counts" as Keyword it has a prfile and points but can't be used. 

But if it's seen in the other way "Vlad Von Carstein" is a keyword and is priced but the same is for "Terrorgheist" and "Dragon Zombie".

And the same is about for a lot of other units from other armies.

 

I think too that it should be used the last release about the model, but if it's seen in a tournament ruling way it's not so cause the same ruling allow it, moreover having a ufficial FAQ. 

 

And about the "cherry picking warscroll to its own advantage"...beh... it's the tournament way from the beginning. 

[Oppenheimer]

The reinforcement rules really put a crimp in my style with ask my Death characters but even more so with the flesh eaters. I have fielded a 1000 pt army with a ghoul king on foot since his spell is still good but in a 2000 pt army the ghoul king on terrorgheist just seems like a waste.

[deynon]

1 hour ago, Oppenheimer said:

The reinforcement rules really put a crimp in my style with ask my Death characters but even more so with the flesh eaters. I have fielded a 1000 pt army with a ghoul king on foot since his spell is still good but in a 2000 pt army the ghoul king on terrorgheist just seems like a waste.

Sincerly I tried the GKoT evocation ability also with 2k army and I found it really useful. I think it's only style related and it's not a bad thing, there are more options and less mirror lists^^

[TerrorPenguin]

Yeah the ghoul king would have been better as a buffer (although not the original buff, admittedly that was a bit strong) than a summoner, especially as the courtiers exist.

Summoning a Terrorghiest or ZD feels like a big risk, needs a 10 I think? If you did get it into their backline that would be great, but it's a gamble.

[Honcho]

I feel that if you're playing a Death army in Matched Play that you're hindering yourself if you're not leaving points aside for summoning. I think there are very few lists that wouldn't benefit from it. The auto-summons from the GK just make it even better as there's no risk.

You get units to arrive when and where you want to. That is invaluable in objective-based play as it allows you to challenge distant objectives and backline units your opponent may think were safe.  If you're not playing the Matched Play missions then it's less of an advantage, but it's still good.

Everyone has a different playstyle, but Death's relatively easy summoning is one of the big benefits of the GA. The fact that most FEC summoning doesn't require a roll is just gray and one of the reasons I picked up the army in the first place. 

There's a great joy in swarming your opponent in ghouls that come from his own backfield.

[wayniac]

I might just have to try it and see how it works; admittedly I picked up FEC as my first AOS army after having played only in like 5th edition, so I'm not used to summoning or anything since only Undead/Vampire Counts (this was before Tomb Kings were an army!) could summon and IIRC it only replenished, so the whole concept is new to me.

I'm a little confused about how it works anyways, like you "spend" the points immediately when the unit is summoned, right, and then it's just as though you used actual points?  So like, if I put aside 160 points to summon, I could summon let's say a unit of Crypt Horrors (140 for 3) and that immediately spends 140 out of 160 points, so I can't summon anything else?  So the command ability essentially becomes once per game (unless you put like a huge amount of points into reserve) instead of once per Hero phase?  

[TerrorPenguin]

That is how I understand it Wayne, yes. Although if you had the models and left a chunk of points for reinforcements, say 320, you could make the decision depending on how well the game is going to summon a terrorgheist or two units of crypt horrors (though not in the same turn)

[Honcho]

12 hours ago, wayniac said:

I might just have to try it and see how it works; admittedly I picked up FEC as my first AOS army after having played only in like 5th edition, so I'm not used to summoning or anything since only Undead/Vampire Counts (this was before Tomb Kings were an army!) could summon and IIRC it only replenished, so the whole concept is new to me.

I'm a little confused about how it works anyways, like you "spend" the points immediately when the unit is summoned, right, and then it's just as though you used actual points?  So like, if I put aside 160 points to summon, I could summon let's say a unit of Crypt Horrors (140 for 3) and that immediately spends 140 out of 160 points, so I can't summon anything else?  So the command ability essentially becomes once per game (unless you put like a huge amount of points into reserve) instead of once per Hero phase?  

Yes, that's how I understand it. 

[wayniac]

I won't lie that really seems to ****** over Death, because we only get a 1/game at best command ability when every other army gets theirs every turn if they want.  

[Grimnaud]

35 minutes ago, wayniac said:

I won't lie that really seems to ****** over Death, because we only get a 1/game at best command ability when every other army gets theirs every turn if they want.  

Well, FEC more than GA:Death in general. I'd call that a trade off against having to roll to summon if that was all. However, the only leaders FEC get that can summon anything but min sized ghoul units with their command ability are big monsters (summoning from most of GA:Death is open to all wizards in contrast). So that already tempting target (General - check, wizard - check, monster - check) just got even more valuable as your opponent can dictate your summoning options by taking him out.

That's one of the reasons why I forgo summoning with my FEC. 

Edit; Ohh, not to mention that our summoning is tied to a table edge. So no summoning on or close to an objective.

[Honcho]

1 hour ago, wayniac said:

I won't lie that really seems to ****** over Death, because we only get a 1/game at best command ability when every other army gets theirs every turn if they want.  

Most Death wizards gets summons as spells so you can get multiple summons a turn if you've got enough wizards and points in reserve. FEC only can summon through a few units units so you have less opportunities to summon but the trade-off is that there's no chance of failure.