Let's chat... Order Wizards (from a Sylvaneth Perspective)

[MidasKiss]

It seems that there is general agreement out there that there is some possibility for some really nice mixed order lists even though Order players seem much more likely to stick to more specific allegiances.

Sylvaneth players will know that one of our lovely battalions allows you to take any order wizard without losing our allegiance, but that's a fair bit of choice! I thought this would be a good opportunity to do a write up on the order wizards to start a conversation about their utility in either a Sylvaneth Gnarlroot list, or in a general mixed order list.

I've written out a quick summary of each order wizard, and put them into tiers with the help of @scrubyandwells. We were approaching this from a Sylvaneth perspective, but I don't think the tiers will be too far off in a mixed Order list anyways. The tier positions are obviously all relative, we compared wizards to other order wizards, and other Sylvaneth units that you might get for the same points cost. For instance, the Battlemage on Griffin isn't that bad (and might be more of a tier two for general order lists), but at 280 points he is very close to a Treelord Ancient in points cost so we both felt unlikely to take him. If you were in a mixed order list though perhaps the Ancients utility of summoning woods and etc might be less useful, depending on how many Syvaneth troops you had.
Likewise, many wizards were placed low on the tier list because they have only specific allegiance abilities that won't be useful in a Sylvaneth or mainly mixed list. Obviously though if you are using multiple units from a narrow allegiance, those wizards might be worth taking. Lastly, Sylvaneth as an army is fantastic, but there aren't many opportunities to buff and debuff units and therefore wizards with these abilities were ranked more highly than they might have otherwise.

I've split the tiers into two lists, the normal AoS warscrolls and the Compendium Warscrolls. Realistically, the only wizards we found interesting in the compendium were Teclis and the old Alarielle the Radiant, which would both place in tier one against the normal AoS wizards. For now I still need to add the write up for the Compendium tiers, this one took forever to format and it's still wacky and changes font and font size despite my best efforts. I also will add Sylvaneth wizards in at some stage, but we've talked them to death in the Sylvaneth thread and they are all probably tier one or two.

Without further rambling, here's the tier list:

Tier One: Highly Useful

Loremaster (100 points - leader): 100 points to get rerolling hits AND wounds on a unit.

• Basic stats: 5 wounds, 4+ save. 6” move. He rerols failed save rolls in the shooting phase. Average melee and no shooting.
• Unique Spell: Hand of Glory (5): Pick a model within 18”, that model can re-roll failed hit and wound rolls until the next hero phase. 
  
  His low cost at 100 points, and this spell is what placed him at the top of tier one. Being able to put rerolling hits and wounds on a big hitting model like a Spirit of Durthu massively increases their effectiveness and at 100 points it is very easy to slot him into most lists without having to redesign the list around him. Sitting 18" behind your big hitters, they are going to want to shoot him off, but in cover he will have an easy 3+ save rerolling just to make that more difficult. Otherwise, leave him more in range and make them choose between attacking the Loremaster, or attacking what he is buffing.

Battlemage (100 points - Leader): highly flexible, can do damage, buff or debuff depending on what you want each game.

• Basic stats: 5 wounds, 6+ save. Average melee and no shooting.
• Unique Spells: The battlemage has access to one of 8 spells, you choose one "when setting up this model" (plus mystic shielf and arcane bolt of course).

1. Chain lightning (6): Unit within 18” suffers D3 mortal wounds. Roll a dice for each enemy unit within 6", on a 6 that unit also suffers D3 mortal wounds.
2. Fireball (5): Pick a unit within 18”. Roll a dice, on a 1 or 2 it suffers 1 mortal wound, 3 or 4 it suffers D3 mortal wounds, 5 or 6 it suffers D6 mortal wounds.
3. Soul Steal (5): Pick an enemy unit within 18”. You and your opponent roll a dice, both adding your bravery to the dice roll (Battlemage is 6 bravery before modification). If your score is highest, they suffers the number of mortal wounds equal to the difference between scores.
4. Light of Battle (4): Pick a unit within 18”. That unit does not need to take battleshock, and all units within 6” add one to bravery until your next hero phase.
5. Final Transmutation (6): pick a visible enemy unit within 18”, your opponent then picks a model within that unit and rolls a dice. If the result is more than that model’s remaining wounds it is transformed into a gleaming golden statue and slain (no mortal wound save vs this).
6. Mystifying Miasma (6): Pick a visible enemy unit within 18”, until your next hero phase your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls for that unit.
7. Wildform (6): pick a unit within 18”, until your next hero phase you can add 1 to all wound rolls for that unit.
8. Lifesurge (5): Pick a unit within 18”, one model in that unit heals D3 wounds. That unit also gets a 6+ ward save.

At his low cost of 100 points and this amazing flexibility of spells is what places the Battlemage in second position. Note that it explicitly says you choose (no rolling!) his spell when you deploy him, so you should raise this with any tournaments that want you to build in spells into your list. The spells all obviously have their benefits, with multiple damage spells each good against different types of armies, three buffing spells and a debuff. Highlights include running Soul Steal when using Spite Revenants -1 bravery buff, using Final Transmutation against lower wound heroes or elite units (they pick the model, but do they pick one you've already wounded or do they pick a model on full wounds and risk losing that instead), using Lifesurge on an already healy Sylvaneth army (and getting a 6+ ward save to boot), and getting those +1 to wounds or -1 to hits against an already hard to hit (I've gotten to -3 to hit a unit) Sylvaneth army.

 

Sisters of the Thorn (220 points): Not cheap, but gives you rerolling saves doing mortal wounds back. Stack with save modifiers to really hurt your attacker.

• Basic stats: Five 2 wound models, 5+ save, 12" move. Average melee, with an average shooting attack (9" range only), but any shooting is nice these days. Can re-roll their run rolls.
• Unique Spell: Shield of Thorns (6): Pick a unit within 18". That unit can re-roll failed save rolls until your next hero phase. In addition, each time you make a successful roll of a 6+ or more, the attacking unit suffers a mortal wound.
  
  Obviously, at 220 points the sisters are all about this spell. Rerolling saves is nice on a high priority target, but the 6 or more of course means that that is affected by save modifiers. Mystic shield makes it 5's doing mortal wounds, in cover goes to 4+, any unique save modifiers (dryads get +1 save when there's more than 12 models, Sylvaneth have a +1 to save item, though monsters don't get cover) can bring that down to a rerolling save (probably saving on a 3 or so depending on your save stat), with 2/3 or half of the saves doing mortal wounds back! Obviously, straight up mortal wounds and high rend are the answer to that, but a lot of armies don't have access to that so this could really be a PITA for some lists. Stick it on a Durthu to get survivability, or put it on 20 Dryads to really punish them for trying to take an objective.
  Obviously, at 220 points they aren't cheap and probably you would start to design lists around them rather than the other way round, but in some games they would be insanely valuable and in others still pretty good.

 

Celestial Hurricanum with Battlemage (320 points, Leader and Behemoth)

• Basic stats: 11 wounds, 4+ save. 10" move (gets worse as it takes wounds). Obviously bad melee attacks, but fantastic, albeit short range (18") shooting attack. If you've taken 2 wounds or less, you're rolling 3 dice (no hit or wound rolls) with 1-3s doing a mortal wound, 4-5s doing D3 and 6's doing D6 mortal wounds. So anywhere between 3 and 3D6 mortal wounds. Not sure what the math hammer would say the average would be.
• Portents of Battle ability gives the infamous +1 to hit buff to units within 10” (down to 2” at 9+ wounds).
• Gives itself (and any other collegiate arcane wizards within 10" if you have them) +1 to cast.
• Unique Spell: Comet of Casandora (6):  Pick a unit within 18”, then your opponent picks one of their units within 18” of caster. One a 1-3 the unit your opponent picked is struck, on a 4-6 the unit you picked is struck – that unit suffers D6 mortal wounds.
  
  At 320 points the Hurricanum isn't cheap, and you are definitely going to need to build the list around this inclusion. The +1 to hit buff is amazing, and is obviously going to work well with ranged units (Kurnoth Hunters!) but also your front line if you can risk getting it close enough. 18" range on its shooting and spell, so it is going to get targeted quickly by anything with a decent range, and is well within move and charge range for most things if you position poorly if you can't force them to prioritise something else.  A great source of mortal wounds, the Hurricanum is a fantastic addition to a list and doesn't place higher simply because of the points cost.

 

Archmage (120 Leader): 120 points for a 18" 6+ ward save bubble.

• Basic stats: 5 wounds, 6+ save. Give him a steed for 14" movement.
• +1 to unbinding rolls.
• Unique spell: Elemental Shield (6): The archmage and all units within 18" of him get a 6+ ward save.
  
  An AoE 6+ ward save is obviously great. In a mixed order army the Archmage would definitely be high tier one, but if you are choosing one wizard for a Gnarlroot wargrove, although he is awesome you are probably going to choose one of the other tier one's over this guy. If you face a lot of mortal wound armies obviously his value skyrockets, but he's a little more expensive at 100 points than the Loremaster and the Battlemage.

Tier Two: Useful

Skink Starseer (160 points, Leader): 160 points for dice roll modifiers, might be worth it if you had some points spare but hard to see this being used over other options.

• Basic stats: 5 wounds, 4+ save. 5” move.
• Cosmic Herald: Can get some rerolls for the round depending on a mini game where you and your opponent both choose a dice value. If they don't match yours you get that many rerolls for the round, but if they do match yours, then they get that many rerolls instead.
• Unique Spell: Curse of Fates (4): Pick a unit within 20”. Once per phase, until your next hero phase, you can increase or decrease the result of a single dice roll by one.
  
  I was a lot more excited about this unit when I thought it could summon other Seraphon, but unfortunately that is of course the Slanns only. In my disappointment I moved it down to tier two but there's a chance it still belongs higher.  Gets some fun points for the Cosmic Herald mini game, and rerolls are always nice (though you might give some up). Spell is a nice buff or debuff for heroes with a smaller amount of more powerful attacks, just wait until they roll so you can take out an attack.

Luminark of Hysh with Celestial Battlemage (240 Behemoth + Leader): 240 points for an nice shooting attack and a decent spell.

• Basic stats: 11 wounds, 4+ save. 10” move (lower as wounds taken). At full strength it has 1 30" attack (3’s and 3’s) -2 rend 6 damage missile weapon.
• Unique spell: Burning Gaze (6"). Pick a visible unit within 18", they suffer D3 mortal wounds, but is doubled if they have 10 or more models and tripled if they have 20 or more.
  
  On 3's and 3's it's often going to miss with its attack, but being able to kill high priority targets turn one is very strong in the current meta where most people want to make the opponent go first. When you hear about needing to take out savage ork heroes to squash the Kunning Ruk and etc, think of this thing. The spell is obviously very good versus hoard armies. Triple D3 mortal wounds going into a lot of units early into the game is amazing. A little expensive at 240,  but might do well in some armies to add solid ranged threat. Put some Kurnoth Hunters with bows on the board and your threat range is incredible, but if you were going to do that you might be better off with the Hurricanum's +1 to hit. Very good (I wouldn't want to verse one), but not an obvious first choice over the other options.

Mistweaver Saih (80 Leader): she is a cheap hero at 80 points which places her a little higher than she would be otherwise.

• Basic stats: 5 wounds, 6+ save, 8" move. 
• Can giver herself +1 to save versus one attack per turn.
• Unique Spell: Illusory Assault (6): 24” range, roll 3 dice. If it exceeds the units bravery D3 mortal wounds, if double D6 mortal wounds.
  
  From Silver Tower. Has a nice spell if you are going up against low bravery armies. Against bravery 10 daemons or Seraphon you're better casting arcane bolt though. She's cheap, so not a bad option if you have a spare 80 points in a Gnarlroot list, but you're better off planning your list around one of the tier one options. In a mixed order list I'd probably rather take more troops (skinks) for a similar price.

Archmage on Dragon (360 Leader, Behemoth): A little expensive (40 points less than Durthu), but brings mobility, some good damage and a decent spell

• Basic stats: 14 wounds, 5+ save. 14” move. Good melee damage from the dragon. Dragon can shoot an enemy unit within 12” which takes 1, D3, or D6 mortal wounds depending on a dice roll (1/3 chance of each). Gets two spell casts and two unbinds.
• Unique Spell: Drain Magic (4): Select a unit within 18”, any spells affecting that unit immediately cease. If that unit is a daemon unit it suffers D3 mortal wounds.
  
  Not bad, and if you had the model already it would be tempting to use it. It's nice to have some mobility with good ranged damage. The main problems I see are 1st, the points. At 360 points that's 6 Kurnoth Hunters (30 wounds!) or almost a Durthu, so you would really need to be efficient with this guy to get his points back. Secondly, with only a 5+ save base (compared to the $+ save for hunters, or the 3+ save for Durthu) any decent attacks with even no or -1 rend are really going to take this guy down quickly. Like many of these big, non-Sylvaneth characters, the Regrowth spell is only going to be healing D3 back as well.

Tier Three: Not Very Useful

Sorceress (80 points, Leader): Another cheap hero who gives decent -1 to hit debuff, but the spell is a difficult 7 to cast without other Darkling Coven models to sacrifice.

• Basic Stats: 5 wounds, 6+ save. 6” move. Average melee, no shooting attack.
• Unique Spell: Word of Pain (7). Pick a visible enemy unit within 16”, that unit suffers a mortal wound. In addition, your opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls for that unit until your next hero phase.
  
  She is cheap and the spell is decent, but it's a 7 to cast so just take the battlemage for much more flexibility and an easier 6 to cast hit debuff spell.

Skink Starpriest (100 Leader): Another -1 to hit debuff spell

• Basic stats: 4 wounds, 5+ save, 8” move. Average melee.
• Serpent Staff ability makes other seraphon do double damage on 6 + to wound.
• Unique Spell: Summon Starlight (6): pick a unit within 20”, subtract 1 from the hit rolls of any attacks that it makes (if chaos, it also suffers D3 mortal wounds).
  
  It's fine. Better if you have other Seraphon units, but otherwise just take the Battlemage.

Battlemage on Griffon (280 points, Leader, Behemoth): I wouldn't laugh in ones face but at 280 points he isn't cheap.

• Basic stats: 13 wounds, 5+ save. Starts at 15” move (gradually down to 7” when 12+ wounds taken). Decent melee attacks (27 wound output if rolling perfectly, but 4 or 3’s to hit, 3’s to wound), no ranged.
• Unique Spell: Amber Spear (7): Pick a model within 18”, that model and all other units on the line from the caster take D3 mortal wounds.
  
  Not a bad unit to have run up the flank, but at 280 points that's almost a Treelord Ancient and is the same points as Drycha Hamadreth. The spell is fine but takes positioning and at 7 to cast wont even go off half the time (he gets +1 to cast in the realm of beasts, but when was the last time that happened). 

 

Spellweaver (100 Leader): Can automatically unbind one spell per game but her spell only works on wanderers.

 

• Basic stats: 5 wounds, 6+ save, 6" move. Average attacks.
• Ancient Blessings ability guarantees one unbind per game if in range.
• Unique Spell: Blessings of Life (5): 16" range, brings D3 slain wanderers models back.
  
  While the unbind is nice, her spell only effects wanderers. If you have more wanderers she might be a good option, but otherwise she's not particularly useful compared to the other options.

Slann Starmaster (260 Leader): Can summon more Seraphon without breaking Allegiance in Gnarlroot, but that's quite a points investment.

• Basic stats: 7 wounds, 4+ save. 5” move. Average melee. 3 spell casts and unbinds.
• He has some complex abilities that I wont describe here because they mostly effect Seraphon. But in a Seraphon heavy mixed order list he's worth considering.
• Unique Spells: Light of the Heavens (6): battleshock tests for celestial daemons or chaos daemon units are made using two dice (choose the lowest for celestial, the highest for chaos).
  
  Only in tier 3 because of summoning which is nice. Lame spell, but you would just use this to summon Seraphon units in a Gnarlroot formation. Probably not worth the points investment, the advantage of summoning cheap skinks is massively offset by the 260 points the slann costs. Check out his abilities if you are running multiple Seraphon units though.

Tier Four: Not Usable

Doomfire Warlocks (200): sound more exciting than they are

• Basic stats: 2 wounds each, 5 models, 5+ save. 14” move. Average melee, no shooting.
• Unique Spell: Doombolt (5): Pick a visible enemy unit within 18”. The target suffers D3 mortal wounds if the casting unit has <5 models, D6 mortal wounds if you have 5 or more, and 6 mortal wounds if you have 10 or more models.
  
  You will get one or two D6 mortal wound spells off, but you paid 200 points for that and not much else. It's 20 points more than 3 Kurnoth hunters, and double the cost of many good tier one options.

Lord Kroak (540 Leader): Even if they let him multicast his spell he's still too expensive.

• Basic stats: Special Kroak wounds. 4+ save, 5” move. In the battleshock phase, roll a dice and add the number of wounds Kroak suffered. If it’s more than his bravery (base 10), he is slain. Otherwise he is immediately healed. Command ability that gives up to 3 dice rerolls before your next hero phase. Gets 4 spell casts and 4 unbinds.
• Unique Spell: Celestial Deliverance (7/8/9). Roll 3 dice to determine range, each enemy unit within range suffers D3 mortal wounds (D6 for chaos).
• Comets call (7): pick up to D3 enemy units, or D6 if the casting result was >10. Each of these units suffers D3 mortal wounds.
  
  Spells are nice, but just pick something else for the points (9 Kurnoth Hunters). 

Sorceress on Black Dragon (340 Leader, Behemoth): decent damage but expensive for a lame spell

• Basic stats: 14 wounds, 5+ save. Decent Melee damage from the Dragon. Can shoot, pick a unit and roll a dice for each model within 6", 6s cause mortal wounds.
• Unique Spell: Bladewind (6): Pick a visible enemy unit within 18” and roll 6 dice. Each dice less than their best ‘to hit’ characteristic they suffer a mortal wound.
  
  Expensive for average stats and a pretty lame spell.

THE END

 

[MidasKiss]

Let me know what you think about the rankings, and if there are any things I've missed and synergies I haven't thought of. I'd like to expand it past the perspective of a Sylvaneth player, I'd love to see some strong mixed order lists being played.

Hopefully this helps starts a discussion! I'll get the Compendium list up as soon as I get some time. Thanks again to @scrubyandwells for spending the time to talk it all through on Skype.

[Double Misfire]

Great thread, I'm out of likes for the day, but I definitely owe you one.

-I'd personally bump the Archmage down to tier 2, sure a 6+ ward bubble is noting to turn your nose up at, but when you've got the Loremaster, Sisters of the Thorn and ****ing Teclis competing for the same spot he's never gonna get a look in. Possibly the Battlemage too tbh.

-The sisters' Shield of Thorns is particularly gross cast on a Treelord Ancient who's got the ignore -1 rend command trait and the +1 save artefact cast on him (as well as the obligatory mystic shield), and is part of the Gnarlroot Wargrove's compulsory Household battalion, meaning enemy units can't retreat from him (models have to attack if they can in AoS so if you get the Ancient and only the Ancient into an enemy unit it's kinda screwed).

-I don't have the time right now to skim through every Seraphon unit, but surely at least a couple of the Slann's summons could greatly benefit/break a Sylvaneth allegiance force and would be well worth looking into?

-Compendium wise it's worth having a gander at Eltharion and Balthasar Gelt as well as the two obvious ones. Eltharion is crazy fast, hard hitting and flys around on a griffon, with the added bonus of being able to cast mystic shield and arcane bolt and dispel stuff. In situations where Balewind Vortexes are allowed Gelt becomes a pretty mad character sniping artillery piece, being able to cast searing doom (6 dice, mortal wounds on the target's armour save) and arcane bolt at 48".

-Teclis is just great and I'm amazed he hasn't started turning up in people's Stormcast lists. Tempest is probably the single most effective way to control the battlefield in AoS and he doesn't even need a Balewind Vortex. Oh so gross.

 

You should totally do a similar list to this breaking down the most effective Duardin units available to an Ironbark Wargrove (the most choice of all wargroves) 

[Double Misfire]

Oh and Sisters of the Thorn are also a really fantastic speedy ranged/utility unit as well as having one of the best spells in the game, so totally worth 220 points.

[scrubyandwells]

Awesome write up @MidasKiss. Thanks!

Re: Seraphon summoning via Slann Starmaster for Sylvaneth Gnarlroot: It was getting late so we didn't review the summoning options/potential, but 260pts + reinforcement pts for any summoning seemed like a very large price to pay. It'd be good, though, to look at the options and see if there's anything really interesting.

Re: compendium wizards, we loved Teclis. At 200pts, we thought he was an incredible buy and the best in class. We also liked Alarielle at tier one, and then I'm pretty sure we had Belthasar and Eltharion as tier two. 

That's a great idea re: looking at the Ironbark Wargrove options. One of my faves is 30 Thunderers with a Runelord, giving the Thunderers -2 rend on their shots.

[MidasKiss]

3 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Great thread, I'm out of likes for the day, but I definitely owe you one.

-I'd personally bump the Archmage down to tier 2, sure a 6+ ward bubble is noting to turn your nose up at, but when you've got the Loremaster, Sisters of the Thorn and ****ing Teclis competing for the same spot he's never gonna get a look in. Possibly the Battlemage too tbh.

-The sisters' Shield of Thorns is particularly gross cast on a Treelord Ancient who's got the ignore -1 rend command trait and the +1 save artefact cast on him (as well as the obligatory mystic shield), and is part of the Gnarlroot Wargrove's compulsory Household battalion, meaning enemy units can't retreat from him (models have to attack if they can in AoS so if you get the Ancient and only the Ancient into an enemy unit it's kinda screwed).

-I don't have the time right now to skim through every Seraphon unit, but surely at least a couple of the Slann's summons could greatly benefit/break a Sylvaneth allegiance force and would be well worth looking into?

-Compendium wise it's worth having a gander at Eltharion and Balthasar Gelt as well as the two obvious ones. Eltharion is crazy fast, hard hitting and flys around on a griffon, with the added bonus of being able to cast mystic shield and arcane bolt and dispel stuff. In situations where Balewind Vortexes are allowed Gelt becomes a pretty mad character sniping artillery piece, being able to cast searing doom (6 dice, mortal wounds on the target's armour save) and arcane bolt at 48".

-Teclis is just great and I'm amazed he hasn't started turning up in people's Stormcast lists. Tempest is probably the single most effective way to control the battlefield in AoS and he doesn't even need a Balewind Vortex. Oh so gross.

You should totally do a similar list to this breaking down the most effective Duardin units available to an Ironbark Wargrove (the most choice of all wargroves) 

No problem!

Noted on the Archmage. It's hard to tell exactly how he might benefit some of the more clumped lists that have the offence they need (with lots of hunters for instance). Having multiple units of Hunters rerolling their save and then with a 6+ ward save could be very resilient I think. And versus Thundertusk levels of mortal wounds I'd love to have the ward save. You might be right though.

The Seraphon list does open up a lot of possibilities, the stegadon and the skinks are quite good (10 skinks for 80 points I think). If the Slann was a bit better by itself (like when we thought the Starseer could summon) it would definitely be worth it.

I was so excited for the hour or so that I thought the Starseer could summon because it's not that expensive and not bad even if you didn't summon (it probably would have been top of tier one). There must be some combos of things to summon, and it does get 3 casts so you could theoretically get it all out pretty fast. It is going to be expensive though. There's a lot of ranged options to bring in.

On the Compendium, like Scruby said we pretty much had Teclis and Alarielle at tier 1. Her spell is another heal D6 wounds with the bonus of a 6 up ward save, but doesn't stop you also casting regrowth on someone else. 

We felt that Balthasar is a top of tier two, or bottom of tier one option like you said. Nothing wrong with him, but at 160 points better stuff is cheaper. Morathi was tier two as well, 220 points was the main thing as his spell and stats aren't bad. Eltharion we had at the bottom of two, 340 points is really getting up there.

3 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Oh and Sisters of the Thorn are also a really fantastic speedy ranged/utility unit as well as having one of the best spells in the game, so totally worth 220 points.

Yeah definitely. The main problem doesn't seem to be stuff not being worth it, but just not worth it compared to other things. I think the sisters are definitely deserving of tier one, but I don't expect to see them all the time either (same as the hurricanum).

1 hour ago, scrubyandwells said:

Awesome write up @MidasKiss. Thanks!

Re: Seraphon summoning via Slann Starmaster for Sylvaneth Gnarlroot: It was getting late so we didn't review the summoning options/potential, but 260pts + reinforcement pts for any summoning seemed like a very large price to pay. It'd be good, though, to look at the options and see if there's anything really interesting.

Re: compendium wizards, we loved Teclis. At 200pts, we thought he was an incredible buy and the best in class. We also liked Alarielle at tier one, and then I'm pretty sure we had Belthasar and Eltharion as tier two. 

That's a great idea re: looking at the Ironbark Wargrove options. One of my faves is 30 Thunderers with a Runelord, giving the Thunderers -2 rend on their shots.

Ironbark is next on the list, but I'd really want some people who have played duardin and fyreslayers. If anyone has send me a message, or the same if you know someone who has. There's some more obvious stuff like the thunderers and vulkite berserkers,  I'm also curious about some of the artillery pieces. Must be lots of options with the choice of two units.

[Nico]

Quote

Teclis is just great and I'm amazed he hasn't started turning up in people's Stormcast lists. Tempest is probably the single most effective way to control the battlefield in AoS and he doesn't even need a Balewind Vortex. Oh so gross.

Teclis is a lad and I think he has a big plus to unbind so that's helpful. He brings 3 spells, so 3 activations of Wyldwoods - but keep him out of the wood or he will die!

Quote

At his low cost of 100 points and this amazing flexibility of spells is what places the Battlemage in second position. Note that it explicitly says you choose (no rolling!) his spell when you deploy him, so you should raise this with any tournaments that want you to build in spells into your list.

I'm not a fan of WYSIWYG in general, but you would need to at least paint this guy the right colour for it to be useable in most tournaments. It may be worth bringing a couple of models to interchange.

I like Wildform for a big unit of Hunters with Scythes or maybe Durthu.

The -1 to hit abilities are sweet. Against a 4+ to hit unit, you are knocking out a third of the damage (whereas mystic shield is a sixth of the damage)

Never count out Kroak - you might want to make him your general for the generic rerolls - rerolling Durthu misses, rerolling Navigate Realmroots, mystical terrain and potentially even initiative rolls. The Sylvaneth command abilities aren't great. His spells are still extremely useful and he's incredibly hard to kill.

Did you mention Malekith - quite expensive, but he's an ubertank - can also be healed using Regrowth - halving wounds mechanic - on top of his own healing spell?

 

[Double Misfire]

4 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Awesome write up @MidasKiss. Thanks!

Re: Seraphon summoning via Slann Starmaster for Sylvaneth Gnarlroot: It was getting late so we didn't review the summoning options/potential, but 260pts + reinforcement pts for any summoning seemed like a very large price to pay. It'd be good, though, to look at the options and see if there's anything really interesting.

Re: compendium wizards, we loved Teclis. At 200pts, we thought he was an incredible buy and the best in class. We also liked Alarielle at tier one, and then I'm pretty sure we had Belthasar and Eltharion as tier two. 

That's a great idea re: looking at the Ironbark Wargrove options. One of my faves is 30 Thunderers with a Runelord, giving the Thunderers -2 rend on their shots.

As a Dispossessed player I always take Quarrellers over Thunderers for the extra 4" range and double shots in units over 20 (obviously I've got the luxury of multiple Runelords throwing Rend on them, so that makes a difference too). You could also take a look at Irondrakes - point for point you'll get more shots paying slightly less than them from thunderers if they're standing still, and they can take a fun missile launcher and are super survivable.

 

2 hours ago, MidasKiss said:

Ironbark is next on the list, but I'd really want some people who have played duardin and fyreslayers. If anyone has send me a message, or the same if you know someone who has. There's some more obvious stuff like the thunderers and vulkite berserkers,  I'm also curious about some of the artillery pieces. Must be lots of options with the choice of two units.

iirc I've never played a game of AoS without Dispossessed models on my side. I'll send you a PM later.

57 minutes ago, Nico said:

I'm not a fan of WYSIWYG in general, but you would need to at least paint this guy the right colour for it to be useable in most tournaments. It may be worth bringing a couple of models to interchange.

In WFB I'd tell someone to take their wizard model off if they'd had a Jade Wizard wearing shoes. In AoS I'm much more flexible as we don't really know anything about the different schools of the Collegiate Arcane and they could look like anything.

Quote

Did you mention Malekith - quite expensive, but he's an ubertank - can also be healed using Regrowth - halving wounds mechanic - on top of his own healing spell?

Wow, how did I manage to remember Eltharion is a wizard and forget Malekith!  Yeah, he's probably nuts in any list!

[DagW]

Not to be a busybody, but the Loremaster, buspell only affects one *model*, not unit. And you also forgot the Drakeseer and Archmage on Dragon with Flames of the Phoenix and Drain Magic respectively. 

[Nico]

Yeah Drain Magic is excellent.

[Double Misfire]

Whew, first part of my Dispossessed breakdown (warmachines) sent.

[Rend 4]

Not sure if it was mentioned or not but the loremaster's hand of glory only works on a single model. It won't buff an entire unit of troops.


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[MidasKiss]

Not to be a busybody, but the Loremaster, buspell only affects one *model*, not unit. And you also forgot the Drakeseer and Archmage on Dragon with Flames of the Phoenix and Drain Magic respectively. 

Thanks for the heads up with the Loremaster, I had read it I think at first because I was always planning on using it on Durthu, but I think I forgot later and started to think of other uses. Makes it a little less useful for some lists, though it's still good on an Ancient I guess!

I will check out the others, there are a few which don't show up when you search for order wizards on the website for some reason.

Cheers!

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[MidasKiss]

I've put the Archmage on Dragon in at the bottom of tier 2, though I could see it being a little higher or lower depending on actual play testing.

The big thing with these big wizards isn't that they aren't good, they could all be very good, but they are all quite costly in the current GH points list. As I mentioned in the Archmage on Dragon's post, as soon as you're up there in the high 300's your either not taking an ancient, a bunch of Kurnoth Hunters, or nearly a Durthu, so you're really going to have to use that model effectively to get your moneys worth. For whatever reason, Sylvaneth monster saves are all amazing, which is a bit of a comparative downer when looking at these point expensive models with a 5+ save.

Let me know if you disagree! I'm hoping I don't come off as trying to sound like an authority on anything, I'm probably not even in the best 50% of people to write a list like this, but it didn't seem like anyone was doing it so I've taken up the mantle for now.

[Tiger]

Sylvaneth have amazing options when it comes to magic and multiple wound models.

I'd downgrade archmage and loremaster to tier 2, they are useful but they sort of pale out compared to other options. I'd keep Battlemages where they are, they are cheap and having access to multiple lores gives you nice flexibility, when building a mixed list. Personally enjoy having diverse elements, hence the high rating on them.

It would be nice to have Sylvaneth wizards up there as well, however I'm approaching things from non Sylvaneth perspective.

[MidasKiss]

19 hours ago, Tiger said:

Sylvaneth have amazing options when it comes to magic and multiple wound models.

I'd downgrade archmage and loremaster to tier 2, they are useful but they sort of pale out compared to other options. I'd keep Battlemages where they are, they are cheap and having access to multiple lores gives you nice flexibility, when building a mixed list. Personally enjoy having diverse elements, hence the high rating on them.

It would be nice to have Sylvaneth wizards up there as well, however I'm approaching things from non Sylvaneth perspective.

I'm thinking about the Loremaster. Now that I know he doesn't effect a unit, but only one model it limits his usefulness to buffing Durthu. That's a pretty amazing thing to buff but it probably isn't top tier anymore. Thanks for the suggestions!

What would be your top of tier one choice?

[Xerek]

Why do you mention Teclis and Alarielle in top tier?  Granted, I'm coming from a Sylvaneth point of view, but neither seems to work particularly well with a sylvaneth allegiance, and at 200 pts. Maybe I'm missing something, but the awesomeness of Teclis only works with Highborn wizards.  Yeah, if it was just wizards, he'd prolly be my top choice but...

[Suave]

I had thought about Alarielle the Radiant but I think her 200 points cost is what really brings her down.

She's basically the same thing as a Battlemage with Lifesurge. Except instead of healing d3 wounds you get d6. When building up a list I run into the problem of not having enough points for another unit of Kurnoth Hunters, or Dryads, or Tree Revenants. So then you have to question is it worth sacrificing an additional unit for an extra d3 heal on wounds? Personally if I needed a heal I would just take Battlemage.

[scrubyandwells]

3 hours ago, Xerek said:

Why do you mention Teclis and Alarielle in top tier?  Granted, I'm coming from a Sylvaneth point of view, but neither seems to work particularly well with a sylvaneth allegiance, and at 200 pts. Maybe I'm missing something, but the awesomeness of Teclis only works with Highborn wizards.  Yeah, if it was just wizards, he'd prolly be my top choice but...

Teclis is incredible value at 200pts. He casts 3 spells. Better yet, he gets +2 to cast and unbind, so he's almost always successfully casting. Even more, when he exceeds the casting value by 3 or more, the spell range is doubled, so he's mystic shielding, arcane bolting, and tempesting at 36" range. And Tempest's move debuff can be invaluable against certain opponents (e.g., fast-moving Ironjawz, Beastclaw Raiders, et al.). 

27 minutes ago, Suave said:

I had thought about Alarielle the Radiant but I think her 200 points cost is what really brings her down.

She's basically the same thing as a Battlemage with Lifesurge. Except instead of healing d3 wounds you get d6. When building up a list I run into the problem of not having enough points for another unit of Kurnoth Hunters, or Dryads, or Tree Revenants. So then you have to question is it worth sacrificing an additional unit for an extra d3 heal on wounds? Personally if I needed a heal I would just take Battlemage.

Yeah there's a better argument to be made vs Alarielle, but she's still reasonable value (but not Teclis-value) at 200pts, since she can also heal herself, and most importantly, she's casting 2 spells per turn. But I could see her getting knocked down to tier 2. FWIW, personally I'd never take her old warscroll, since she has a new model/warscroll.

[Xerek]

53 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

Teclis is incredible value at 200pts. He casts 3 spells. Better yet, he gets +2 to cast and unbind, so he's almost always successfully casting. Even more, when he exceeds the casting value by 3 or more, the spell range is doubled, so he's mystic shielding, arcane bolting, and tempesting at 36" range. And Tempest's move debuff can be invaluable against certain opponents (e.g., fast-moving Ironjawz, Beastclaw Raiders, et al.). 

I don't disagree with all of the above; however, for those 3 spells, there is only 1 unique and with the rule of 1s in matched play, I would have more casters than spells to cast.  From a sylvaneth point of view, I'm using him if I'm likely doing gnarlroot, except he won't get the deepwood spell lore and none of the other wizards are highborne.  With gnarlroot, I already end up not casting all the spell slots I have because I run out of spells to cast due to duplicates.  For 200 pts, he has some really great abilities, but doesn't cut it from a sylvaneth perspective.  Having spells isn't the same as putting out damage. 

[scrubyandwells]

6 minutes ago, Xerek said:

I don't disagree with all of the above; however, for those 3 spells, there is only 1 unique and with the rule of 1s in matched play, I would have more casters than spells to cast.  From a sylvaneth point of view, I'm using him if I'm likely doing gnarlroot, except he won't get the deepwood spell lore and none of the other wizards are highborne.  With gnarlroot, I already end up not casting all the spell slots I have because I run out of spells to cast due to duplicates.  For 200 pts, he has some really great abilities, but doesn't cut it from a sylvaneth perspective.  Having spells isn't the same as putting out damage. 

Yeah I could see that case. Thanks for laying it out.

[Mirage8112]

On 10/4/2016 at 10:04 AM, Xerek said:

I don't disagree with all of the above; however, for those 3 spells, there is only 1 unique and with the rule of 1s in matched play, I would have more casters than spells to cast.  From a sylvaneth point of view, I'm using him if I'm likely doing gnarlroot, except he won't get the deepwood spell lore and none of the other wizards are highborne.  With gnarlroot, I already end up not casting all the spell slots I have because I run out of spells to cast due to duplicates.  For 200 pts, he has some really great abilities, but doesn't cut it from a sylvaneth perspective.  Having spells isn't the same as putting out damage. 

 

On 9/30/2016 at 6:14 PM, MidasKiss said:

Spellweaver (100 Leader): Can automatically unbind one spell per game but her spell only works on wanderers.

 

• Basic stats: 5 wounds, 6+ save, 6" move. Average attacks.
• Ancient Blessings ability guarantees one unbind per game if in range.
• Unique Spell: Blessings of Life (5): 16" range, brings D3 slain wanderers models back.
  
  While the unbind is nice, her spell only effects wanderers. If you have more wanderers she might be a good option, but otherwise she's not particularly useful compared to the other options.

A word on the two above. Yes, Teclis can cast 3 spells, and only 1 of which is unique. Likewise, yes, the Spellsinger's signature spell only works on wanderers. But I think there is more utility in these two models than is given credit above. 

The gnarlroot list has two Sylvaneth wizards built in as mandatory; the Treelord Ancient and the Branchwytch are required for the meta-formation. It is also quite likely you'll be including at least one branchwraith as well, making the default amount of wizards likely 3, with the ability to add a fourth ORDER wizard. Likewise, the Wytch, Wraith and Ancient will get to cast a second spell.

You'll likely be casting Verdurous harmony (the spell granted from the battalion) every phase, and since your Sylvaneth Wizards will also have access to the Sylvaneth Lore, you should probably be using them to cast Verdant Blessing, The Reaping or Dwellers, rather than Celestial Sheild or Arcane Bolt. That means if you're bringing Telcis, you should be planning to use him for Shield/Arcane Bolt (doubly so since he is very likely able to get double range, keeping him well back from danger and unbinding attempts). Also, as @scrubyandwells and I have discussed frequently, so much of a Sylvaneth players success depends on our ability to pick our fights when it suits us. We have massive area denial potential with our wildwoods, and the ability to restrict an enemy's movement could mean the difference between a Frostlord crossing the board and joining combat in the first turn, or the third turn. Likewise, our wyldwood's ability causes units to test when they attempt to charge (if they are already in the forest) means if they fail the charge (and teclis's spell halves charge ranges), they still have to test; possibly forcing them to declare a charge twice, losing twice as many models in the process. I might also add that in Teclis's case, he knows any spells by highborn wizards within 16", the way it's worded is "any Highborn wizards". That includes your opponent wizards as well.

Furthermore, the Gnarlroot Wargrove can pretty effectively stand on it's own. Especially given how resilient we can make our units through the spells provided by the battletome and the extra spell granted from the formation. In the test games I ran with the Sisters of the thorn, I didn't really need them at any point during the game. (I even ran 10, which meant I was running less core-sylvaneth units than usual, with the sisters clocking in at whopping 440 pts.) However, there were a few times when I really could have used a guaranteed dispel. In this instance, if I had substituted a spellsinger for her auto-dispel (and plunked her inside a unit of 3 hunters with bows near the middle of the board) I would have had a very handy tool for shutting down critical spells AND still had an extra 260 pts to throw around. 

It's tempting to look at wizards solely in terms of damage output, but don't underestimate the importance of a strong magical defense. There are a couple of units in the game that can steal spells from other wizards (the Curseling and Archon at this point in time). An auto-dispel can mean the difference between your opponent being able to cast regrowth on his own models (in the case of the Curseling) or if Archaon decides he wants to chomp on a wizard, the ability to resurrect wanderers won't be that helpful. Likewise, most wizards can only dispel a single spell. Telcis can dispel 3 AND get's a 2+ to unbind rolls to boot. There's not many units in the game that can reliably provide that kind of magic defense.

[Xerek]

19 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

There's not many units in the game that can reliably provide that kind of magic defense.

I get where you are going here.  I guess my local meta doesn't have too much spell casting at the moment so I haven't had any concerns.

[MidasKiss]

On 05/10/2016 at 4:04 AM, Xerek said:

I don't disagree with all of the above; however, for those 3 spells, there is only 1 unique and with the rule of 1s in matched play, I would have more casters than spells to cast.  From a sylvaneth point of view, I'm using him if I'm likely doing gnarlroot, except he won't get the deepwood spell lore and none of the other wizards are highborne.  With gnarlroot, I already end up not casting all the spell slots I have because I run out of spells to cast due to duplicates.  For 200 pts, he has some really great abilities, but doesn't cut it from a sylvaneth perspective.  Having spells isn't the same as putting out damage. 

I see Alarielle's old scroll as being quite good in some lists, depending on what kind of damage you are versing. I routinely verse high damage output lists (my three main opponents are Beastclaw, Seraphon (ripperdactlys), and Bonesplitters with Boars, Arrowboys and Stabbers. In all three of those lists I find a good heal can keep me in it, and bad luck can mean getting chipped away next turn. I'm not saying she's automatic, but being able to essentially heal off the 9-10 wound of a treelord, or be able to heal up a hunter and give them a ward save for a rerolling with 6+ ward save I think puts her pretty highly. I'm not super rigid with the tiers, if it turns out she's good on paper but no one would actually want to take her I'd happily move her to tier two, not sure how others will feel though. 

+1 to what Frank said on Teclis, his spell is what grabbed mine and Scruby's attention, his extra casts were just bonuses. 

Keep throwing suggestions at me though, I've been really busy the last couple of weeks (my partner is about to hand in her Thesis, and I'm working on my own due at the end of the year), but I'm hoping to come in and do a big update of this soon with tier adjustments and adding in compendium and Sylvaneth wizards. I'd love for people to try some of this stuff out, proxy stuff in at the local club and let me know how it goes! 

[Gengis137]

Hi everyone, 1st post for me

I'm French so please pardon my accent

I've been plating Sylvaneth for a lil while now, especially the gnarlroot wg, and I recently added the sisters

I have to say: if you have money to spend, they worth it a 100%

they weak as f*** in melee as at shooting, can't stand a fight for a turn (even if 2w each is actually nice if you can get the initiative)

But the spell...

so far I just tried it on some dryads but you should see the face of the opponent

basically I just draw the spell on 20 dryads (never failed so far, doesn't worth playing them by 10 regarding their cost and their individual weakness ) and move the dryads forward

Let me tell you that even without no advanced combos (cover/m shield/tl ancient command ability etc) the save of 4+ with a reroll and a mw on 5+ is really awesome 

exemple: last time I did it that, my opponent charged them with his 30 slaanesh daemon girls (sorry I dunno the English GW names my bad), and in his attacking part only he lost 9 models against 2 for me (such a shame they have such high bravery)

worked so well I'm really tempted to try next time something like: a treelord ancient with +1 save artefact/+1 to charge command trait/maybe reaping spell?

cast the sisters spell, pop a forest on the side I need regarding the free one I dropped before deployment, and just put him in front of his army

the good thing is that even if I miss my charge, he won't be able to simply bypass it regarding the danger it represents and will have to engage it at some point (not to mention that he potentially have a free movement when getting out of the wood on a 6+)

I'm also thinking of trying it on making of drycha an even more dangerous suicidal bomb

tell me what you think of it!