Looking for pro players! (Fyreslayers)

[Louzi]

I say take 30 Vulkites. If you cant afford 30, go with 10 Hearthguard Berserkers and Battlesmith.

[Malakithe]

25 is probably ok. I'd be more comfortable at 30 since they are still single wound guys. 

Also a unit of 10 HB is just as tanky but has to stay glued to a hero. The only hero capable of doing it is the Runefather on foot as general 

[Andreas]

I agree that 30 vulkites are better than 15 vulkites. ? But I am curious to know why you think 10 hearthguards are better than 15 vulkites. I am not sure about that, or I think 15 vulkites are better than 10 hearthguards but I am not sure they are 40pt better. 

One argument for hearthguards is that you get access to more cosistent mortal wound that the vulkites. The argument against it would be that the opponent must have really good save to make it count (like 2+) and you miss out on the reroll to wounds that is easy to get for Fyreslayers.

The argument for vulkites could be that 5 more models, +1 Save in combat (synergice great with the battlesmith), and reroll on charge is worth more than 40pt.

But I dont know, seems pretty even to me, ie pointed ok internaly.

[Malakithe]

I don't know if that's really something to compare. Vulkite are only really useful in blocks of 25-30 for all purpose stuff. If less then they need to be full offensive otherwise they won't survive long enough to even get into combat. 

And HB need to be 10+ to be effective. They can sling out mortal wounds way better but aren't as tanky unless a hero is nearby. Of course none of the heroes are tanky at all except for very specific abilities like the Runefather as general, the Grimwrath, or a magmadroth

[Andreas]

18 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I don't know if that's really something to compare. Vulkite are only really useful in blocks of 25-30 for all purpose stuff. If less then they need to be full offensive otherwise they won't survive long enough to even get into combat. 

And HB need to be 10+ to be effective. They can sling out mortal wounds way better but aren't as tanky unless a hero is nearby. Of course none of the heroes are tanky at all except for very specific abilities like the Runefather as general, the Grimwrath, or a magmadroth

But it is interesting to compare. Many list I have seen run 10 Hearthguards, why not 15 vulkites for 40pt more?

Just to give some numbers:

15 vulkites attacks average 7.5 -1 rend wounds and 2.5 mortal wounds (on charge)

10 Hearthguards with broadaxe average 4,4 -1 rend damage 2 wounds

10 Hearthguards with poleaxe average 3.3 -1 rend wounds and 4,4 mortal wounds

[Louzi]

Because a single HB is still tough while close to a hero, a Vulkite not. If you start your Vulkites with 15, they will get very soon very squishy. But if you have at least 30, they are as tanky as HB and do more dmg.

[Malakithe]

9 minutes ago, Louzi said:

Because a single HB is still tough while close to a hero, a Vulkite not. If you start your Vulkites with 15, they will get very soon very squishy. But if you have at least 30, they are as tanky as HB and do more dmg.

That's pretty much it. Vulkite will get slaughtered once they dip below 20. 15 won't do much of anything 

[Andreas]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

That's pretty much it. Vulkite will get slaughtered once they dip below 20. 15 won't do much of anything 

But but mathematicaly 15 Vulkites is as though as 10 Hearthguard or even thougher with shields. ?

But ok if we see different things here maybe we should leave at that. I am not saying that 15 vulkites are better than 10 Hearthguards just that the resoning why is missing. The thoughness is not a valid argument if you do some calculations. The damage output isnt either. It must be something else.

Edit: There are arguments just not the ones you are using IMO. One more could be that vulkites suffer more from battleshock.

[Aeonotakist]

I dont think people really understand Fyreslayer, it is not strong but not really weak army. It wont show up in Tourney just because we cannot deal with shooting list very well, which is a must for all competitive lists.

Vulkite Berserker actually is not a good battleline. Compare with Librators, Librators have similar wound per point (10 points for 1 wound) compare with Berserkers (considering special save, 8 points per wound at 20+ models and 10,6 points at 10+ models). But Librators also have hit hard on HQ and mosters with special weapon used by their Prime, while the damage of Berserkers is just meh even considering the throwing axe.

Hearthguard is the core of Fyreslayer and the only one with ability of doing stable damage with focus fire and without problems of pile-in. Only thing is how to move their asses to 15' with others. Runesmiter with tunneling might be an answer but the potential is not big enough.

The battlion that gives you 3 times of +1 save is really powerful if used in the right way.

The Runesmiter on lizard is a monster of tons of MW but only 220 points. The cheapest MW dealer I have ever seen.

 

Unfortunately till now no people is really trying to combine all the advantages of Fyreslayer into some useful combo. Argueing about Berserkers will not help the situation too much.

 

[Andreas]

57 minutes ago, Aeonotakist said:

.....

 

I completely agree with this.

But the vulkites vs hearthguard is a small part of the problem to solve.

We seems to agree that you need one big unit of vulkites but then you need two more small units since you can’t really afford big ones. Hence, which one should you use 15 vulkites or 10 hearthguards. Or should you use the Runemaster as your general and only use two combat units with greater size.

Then we come to the next question. What general should you use? I think maybe the runeson on magmadroths command ability is the best but is it worth it given the battleline requirements and that you need a 280pt model (I think the runesmiter on magmadroth is superior given the price) or should you go for a Runefather or even a Runemaster since IP is maybe the command ability you will use anyway most of the time.

Then comes the next question how many Auric Hearthguards and how much do you want to pay to tunnel them and how do you fit the battalion in the list. Let’s say you want 20 Auric Hearthguards, should you pay for two runesmiters or should you have them in one unit or should you tunnel 10 and leave two units of 5 to use the battalion’s ability or do you need more. Maybe 20 + 5 + 5 or even 20 + 5 + 5 + 5.

And the last question how do you fit the two best heroes in the list, the battlesmith and the runesmiter on magmadroth (plus runesmiters on foot of course, they are given).

Not easy. 

[Louzi]

Are you sure with the 3 times +1 saves of the battalion?

[Nico]

It is ambiguous - but they interpreted the similar wording in the Gnarlroot Wargrove to mean "all" not "one". It's not that great because of the lose it if you charge issue. 

[Veterannoob]

8 hours ago, Andreas said:

But it is interesting to compare. Many list I have seen run 10 Hearthguards, why not 15 vulkites for 40pt more?

Just to give some numbers:

15 vulkites attacks average 7.5 -1 rend wounds and 2.5 mortal wounds (on charge)

10 Hearthguards with broadaxe average 5 -1 rend damage 2 wounds

10 Hearthguards with poleaxe average 3.3 -1 rend wounds and 5 mortal wounds

Probability doesn't apply to me (though I respect/envy that it does to everyone else) with much of the unholy dice rolling I usually do but with 10 HB mortal wounds on 3+ isn't that more than 5/10 mortal wounds? Hell, even I've been pushing out a usual batch of 6-7 mortal wounds and 5-6 regular wounds at 10, though I've been rocking 15-20 lately with Lords of the Lodge to great effect.

I do agree though that vulkites in smaller units don't do much. Unless it's a small game, under 1,000 for example, any tiny units would be throw-aways.

[Andreas]

5 minutes ago, Veterannoob said:

Probability doesn't apply to me (though I respect/envy that it does to everyone else) with much of the unholy dice rolling I usually do but with 10 HB mortal wounds on 3+ isn't that more than 5/10 mortal wounds? Hell, even I've been pushing out a usual batch of 6-7 mortal wounds and 5-6 regular wounds at 10, though I've been rocking 15-20 lately with Lords of the Lodge to great effect.

You need to hit also. ?

2/3*2/3=4/9 ... Ok a little bit less than 5 actually.

But since they are painted and probably have names 6-7 seems resonable.

[Veterannoob]

@Andreas ahhhhh, gotcha  

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

I dont think people really understand Fyreslayer, it is not strong but not really weak army. It wont show up in Tourney just because we cannot deal with shooting list very well, which is a must for all competitive lists.
Vulkite Berserker actually is not a good battleline. Compare with Librators, Librators have similar wound per point (10 points for 1 wound) compare with Berserkers (considering special save, 8 points per wound at 20+ models and 10,6 points at 10+ models). But Librators also have hit hard on HQ and mosters with special weapon used by their Prime, while the damage of Berserkers is just meh even considering the throwing axe.
Hearthguard is the core of Fyreslayer and the only one with ability of doing stable damage with focus fire and without problems of pile-in. Only thing is how to move their asses to 15' with others. Runesmiter with tunneling might be an answer but the potential is not big enough.
The battlion that gives you 3 times of +1 save is really powerful if used in the right way.
The Runesmiter on lizard is a monster of tons of MW but only 220 points. The cheapest MW dealer I have ever seen.
 
Unfortunately till now no people is really trying to combine all the advantages of Fyreslayer into some useful combo. Argueing about Berserkers will not help the situation too much.

I disagree with all this, vulkite Berserkers are a very descent battleline unit and possibly one of the better efficient defensive units for the cost.

I also think the main reason we don't see Fyreslayers in tourneys is because they're almost prohibitively expensive to collect a large force. No start collecting set and one of the most expensive per point infantry boxes out there, which you need a lot of.

[Veterannoob]

1 hour ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

 

I disagree with all this, vulkite Berserkers are a very descent battleline unit and possibly one of the better efficient defensive units for the cost.

I also think the main reason we don't see Fyreslayers in tourneys is because they're almost prohibitively expensive to collect a large force. No start collecting set and one of the most expensive per point infantry boxes out there, which you need a lot of.

 

I do know from the people I chat with or hear from anywhere that the cost is cited as the biggest reason we don't see more of them. My armies are always the expensive ones  A Start Collecting w/vulkites, Hearthguard and a character or two would help much. On the plus side we are unique and lesser seen so that's kinda cool and always draws folks in at events or even open gaming. Something different.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

I do know from the people I chat with or hear from anywhere that the cost is cited as the biggest reason we don't see more of them. My armies are always the expensive ones [emoji20] A Start Collecting w/vulkites, Hearthguard and a character or two would help much. On the plus side we are unique and lesser seen so that's kinda cool and always draws folks in at events or even open gaming. Something different.

It's definitely something we can leverage to our advantage. In a tournament it's easy to catch people unawares if they haven't faced a faction much or even at all in a lot of cases.

People are a lot more scared of magmadroths than they should be and react in odd ways to them. They also seem to massively underestimate our infantry so don't send as much against them as they should, allowing us a strong advantage.

Obviously this won't always be the case and experiences may differ

[Louzi]

Guys, the thread is going offtopic.

Any suggestion how to handle heavy shooting armies like Bonesplitters or Stormcast with 20+ Judicators? We didnt talk much about tactics yet.

[Veterannoob]

Fair enough.  

Personally I weather shooting with ward saves, so HB w/hero buff or 20+ vulkites. That helped a ton vs. elves and judicators. If it's not rending shooting then a battlesmith helps to re-roll (hell, I just bought a second one to spread out). The auric battalion +1 save is also another tool in absorbing damage.

Of course, the best way I successfully handle shooting armies is by tunneling. Remove the units/heroes as a target until the shooting is neutralized, withered down or you really need the units now. That has been my own personal tactic vs. heavy shooty or even arcane bolt-chucking armies.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

Guys, the thread is going offtopic.
Any suggestion how to handle heavy shooting armies like Bonesplitters or Stormcast with 20+ Judicators? We didnt talk much about tactics yet.

Not that off topic! But fair enough, your thread.

I think we're actually pretty well placed against mass low rend ranged shooting, all out infantry can easily get a triple 4+ or better which is about 90% of damage saved.

I would run your infantry up with a Battlesmith or two as fast as you can and tunnel a couple of magmadroths in the same time the troops charge. The tunnelling is good protection for the unprotected droths

[Aeonotakist]

2 hours ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

 

 

Not that off topic! But fair enough, your thread.

I think we're actually pretty well placed against mass low rend ranged shooting, all out infantry can easily get a triple 4+ or better which is about 90% of damage saved.

I would run your infantry up with a Battlesmith or two as fast as you can and tunnel a couple of magmadroths in the same time the troops charge. The tunnelling is good protection for the unprotected droths
 

 

 

Unfortunately The problem of Fyrestalyer is just against heavy shooting table, I mean heavy, not any ****** like Judicators.

All their saves rely heavily on HQ like Runesmiter driven battlion or Battlesmith. Brethen Battlion lost +save ability when Runesmiter get killed, similar for Ballesmith. And shooting is the easiest way of dealing with HQs.

Also a lot people believe Vulkite Berserker is tough by their points, but actually a lot of thing can do better than them. They are a group of 16 points models with only one wound. Even considering  their ward save 4++ plus Battlesmith, they are just fair - just equal to something with '16 points 2 wound 4+ save reroll 1', a little better than Librator.

But they can lose their battlesmith and 4++ in real battle.

 

Actually a lot problem in paper warhammer is that the objective system populated in AOS is a big minus for army that needs a lot synergy. Fyreslayer is unfortunately among them. If you do paper Warhammer, some combo like Witch Aelve + 4 Blood Caldron will be extremely powerful cause they have mere 20% chance to receive any form of damage. But do you see any of those list in a real world?

Price is never the main reason. The most expensive list in Stormcast run under full Procecutors with Jevelin with 80 ponits trade for 45 Euro. But I still see people carrying them around.

   

 

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

 

Unfortunately The problem of Fyrestalyer is just against heavy shooting table, I mean heavy, not any ****** like Judicators.

All their saves rely heavily on HQ like Runesmiter driven battlion or Battlesmith. Brethen Battlion lost +save ability when Runesmiter get killed, similar for Ballesmith. And shooting is the easiest way of dealing with HQs.

Their saves only rely on their numbers, yes it's better with the heros but that's the point of AoS. a unit of vulkites should on average take about ten wounds from 80 Kunning ruk and buffed arrowboys. They cant kill enough before you reach them.

Also a lot people believe Vulkite Berserker is tough by their points, but actually a lot of thing can do better than them. They are a group of 16 points models with only one wound. Even considering  their ward save 4++ plus Battlesmith, they are just fair - just equal to something with '16 points 2 wound 4+ save reroll 1', a little better than Librator.

But they can lose their battlesmith and 4++ in real battle.

Actually with no battlesmith, they are equal to liberators. With Battlesmith they would take over double the damage.

I believe vulkite berserkers are tough by experience and so do others on this thread.

 

Actually a lot problem in paper warhammer is that the objective system populated in AOS is a big minus for army that needs a lot synergy. Fyreslayer is unfortunately among them. If you do paper Warhammer, some combo like Witch Aelve + 4 Blood Caldron will be extremely powerful cause they have mere 20% chance to receive any form of damage. But do you see any of those list in a real world?

The witch self army has recently come to light in the tournament scene doing very well indeed. I have faced it before and it's crazy powerful if you don't have good ranged to deal with it.

Price is never the main reason. The most expensive list in Stormcast run under full Procecutors with Jevelin with 80 ponits trade for 45 Euro. But I still see people carrying them around.

I definitely disagree. You can get 2000 points in almost any other army a lot quicker than you can with Fyreslayers. They're one of the most expensive to play with a few exceptions because you don't really have a cheap £ but expensive in points set to spam.

[Veterannoob]

I find from my own experience playing, watching and interacting w/other players/games that what looks good on paper, from previous wargames perhaps, doesn't always translate so well practically in play. Naturally I see this most often in my circle w/Fyreslayers and equipping options. This is not to say it won't work out that way for that person. Who knows.

I do absolutely find vulkites effective and scares the ****** out of my opponents when they get close. I run 25 w/double axes so I hit and thus wound a lot, and those 25 (often tunneling both 25 if not a magmadroth for mortal wounds purposes) pop up 9" away, re-roll a die in charge range...that, that is quite effective. Plus, again with the 4+ ward as long as possible) really allows you to stay in the fight longer. We use realmgates a lot in games at GW store and they are freaking fun! but I've used some successful tactics with sending my general through to be in range to inspiring presence the vulkites across the field and that won me two games, draw another. I've done that also with extending Lords of the Lodge to another battle front...seriously, try this out if you use realmates, it's a lot of fun and very effective, obviously there are other options as well.  

Another tactic I use relies on the mystique of the army and/or it being vastly underestimated. Bait with the magmabomb and stick them in with mortal wounds or vulkites from behind or a well-placed Grimwrath(s) getting a 3-2+ ward save between small weaker units/warmachines is killer! But volcanos call causing too much psych-out board control where your opponent won't risk models dying or forgets about the ur-gold can also be sweet. I can't say there's a definitive it-will-do-exactly-this plug & play playbook but we're not so bad off.

[Louzi]

Ok, so I took all your feedback and opinions and have made a list.

I took 2 battalions to get 3 relics, which makes the weak heroes a little bit better.

1) Lords of the Lodge

Battlesmith

Runemaster (General)

Runefather on foot

20 HB

2) Forge Brethren

Runesmiter on Magmadroth

3x5 Auric Hearthguard (battleline)

3) Others

Runesmiter on foot

30 Vulkite Berserkers

total: 2020 points.

Tactics:

I hold Runesmiter on foot and 30 Vulkite Berserkers back. They catch up enemy obejctives later in the game.

Lords of the Lodge and (behind) Forge Brethren running. Hopefully that doesnt last too long. I take Reckless as command trait and hope to boost the run move. Also hoping the 20 HB are tough enough (+4 save, reroll save, +4 ward save, double pile in, reroll failed wound rolls).

So, thats the best I can get out of the Fyreslayers. I hope it works and can beat other competetive lists. I would like to add another Battlesmith or a few Grimwarth Berserkers, but havnt enough points and the other units are more important (I guess).

Thank you all for your comments and shared thoughts. This thread wasnt for nothing