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8 hours ago, Gailon said:

Kroak and trogolodon. Teleport the troglodon as a heroic action up to the opponent army. Cast celestial deliverance 4 times at 18” range from the troglodon and +3 to cast (no rerolls though). Doing 12d3 mortal wounds. The troglodon can cast mystic shield on itself or it’s warscroll spell into the enemy army to potentially cut off runs. 

That‘s what I am talking about. It has to be restricted. Kroak is pretty cheap, that’s a Nagash-Points-Level-Ability.

I agree with @Beliman I initially was very upset with Soulblight, however the book plays really well (streamlined) and it mostly feels right. Point costs are also too high on some models and the damage isn’t really there at all. Yet the book works. It’s too soon to talk about win rates though :)

Edited by JackStreicher
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13 hours ago, Gailon said:

Kroak and trogolodon. Teleport the troglodon as a heroic action up to the opponent army. Cast celestial deliverance 4 times at 18” range from the troglodon and +3 to cast (no rerolls though). Doing 12d3 mortal wounds. The troglodon can cast mystic shield on itself or it’s warscroll spell into the enemy army to potentially cut off runs. 

So 12d3 mortals to one unit.

or are we talking to multiple units?

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42 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

So 12d3 mortals to one unit.

or are we talking to multiple units?

It will be 1d3 to three different units 4 times. So up to 4d3 to a single unit. Could add realmshaper engine to that if they are near terrain. Could add a Slann for comets call. But that is a ton of points on wizards. Would be completely relying on getting the spells cast in order to summon. 

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Y'all are forgetting Cleanse the Realms.

If you save your cosmic power points till turn 2, then you can use Kroak to:

Spatial Translocation a Trog into center of enemy army. 

Cosmic Crush = ~5 MWs to a unit of 10 with 4+ saves.

Deliverance x4 = 4d3 MWs to 3 units within 18".

Cleanse the Realms = D6 MWs to any units within 12".

So, assuming all spellcasts are successful, if you have three enemy units within 12" of the trog, you can potentially inflict ~40 MWs on average, and can then shoot with the trog for even more damage. After that there won't be much left to retaliate against the trog, and with its -1 to hit bubble it should survive to finish off what remains.

This combo seems like the most powerful thing we can do in the new book, and it'll probably result in a points hike for Kroak at the very least. 

 

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no, im not one of those guys who dont know any math and only see, oh this unit atack at 4+ so is bad, or see lots of atacks so it is good!!

i do real numbers every unit does. math with his point cost and see buffs it can get. so everything i said is set in stome absolute for sure. samething with idoneth tome, maths said book was total garbage, and unknowledge guys came claiming i was a noob, i didnt have any idea. book is amazing and i need learn to play.... now after some years? turns out book has been among worst of all since his release, right now is lowest one among all 3.0 books....

 

same on seraphon,only variable is kroak since magic cant be counted so easy.worst case is it be op, so general stupid reaction of people will be book is op like always, when it sucks besides kroak.

 

and noone who knows 2+2=4 could see vampires or kharadrons and think it would be a bad book. kharadron melee build was absolute op on a first glance, and vampires... zombyes,grave guard,vamp on horse,vampires and volka are among the best unit in all aos by far.

 

seraphon book only has saurus buffed, new chikens being okish, and maybe kroak being op or bad, time will say. everything outside that is 100% not on 5/0 level book, some things are fun and okish but only for casual games

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4 hours ago, Gailon said:

It will be 1d3 to three different units 4 times. So up to 4d3 to a single unit. Could add realmshaper engine to that if they are near terrain. Could add a Slann for comets call. But that is a ton of points on wizards. Would be completely relying on getting the spells cast in order to summon. 

Got it so kroak cans till cast the same spel more then once.

thank god am I unable to play any games after this sunday for about half a year.

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I still processing everything before I start putting things into list, but in general this book remind me a lot of the sylvaneth playstyle. I think most of the its power will come from its mobility and power projection this mobility allows. Outside of the kroak + 2 slanns + astrolith + trogladon lists focusing on getting CPP and dishing out mortals, I fell lists will need to focus their ok-ish melee units and supplement it with shooting/magic damage to eliminate key threats.

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per examble how my brain see scrolls.

20 saurus do 34 dmg vs a 4+ save, being in galletians, with all atack, chargin in koatl, slann casting rend spell and skink mortals buff. 

so 400points + 400points behind buffing them. seems prety nice eh

but them you compare them to another infantry unit with similar move atacks etc like grave guard. 30 grave guard not nedding being in galletian only needing a vampire cloose for aura, cant fail anything. and only needing all out atack. will do 35,6 dmg.... not counting smaller bases making everything easier, or necro making them fight again on hero phase or getting tons of models revived every turn, and half unit revived once etc etc. so:

20 saurus do 34dmg vs 4armor for 400p+400p buffing them

30 grave guard do 35.6 for 420p+140p buffing them

or 41,3 dmg if u add velladama spell, rounding it up to same seraphon combo points

fast glimpse see how much better skellys are even being a revived unit, yes has less wound and armor save, but with death ward and multiples revives they are even thoughter. and still vampires and graveguard arent one of the best books. and that saurus tactic is the best one in all book besides kroak mw spam, and it is inferior to only one of the multiples combos in a okish book as soulblight.

still i can sound harsh, because is internet, but it isnt so bad. like i said im sure book will be lower part of middle tier, with even some lucky tourney wins. after some years being on top was obvious we would get this. miniatures are amazing thats most important,and book is fun and good enough for casual games to be fairs and fun.

and it could even be totally op toptier if kroak combo proves to be too strong. but it would be only 1 miniature, not real state of whole book

Edited by Kitsumy
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15 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

per examble how my brain see scrolls.

20 saurus do 34 dmg vs a 4+ save, being in galletians, with all atack, chargin in koatl, slann casting rend spell and skink mortals buff. 

so 400points + 400points behind buffing them. seems prety nice eh

but them you compare them to another infantry unit with similar move atacks etc like grave guard. 30 grave guard not nedding being in galletian only needing a vampire cloose for aura, cant fail anything. and only needing all out atack. will do 35,6 dmg.... not counting smaller bases making everything easier, or necro making them fight again on hero phase or getting tons of models revived every turn, and half unit revived once etc etc. so:

20 saurus do 34dmg vs 4armor for 400p+400p buffing them

30 grave guard do 35.6 for 420p+140p buffing them

fast glimpse see how much better skellys are even being a revived unit, yes has less wound and armor save, but with death ward and multiples revives they are even thoughter. and still vampires and graveguard arent one of the best books. and that saurus tactic is the best one in all book besides kroak mw spam, and it is inferior to only one of the multiples combos in a okish book as soulblight.

still i can sound harsh, because is internet, but it isnt so bad. like i said im sure book will be lower part of middle tier, with even some lucky tourney wins. after some years being on top was obvious we would get this. miniatures are amazing thats most important,and book is fun and good enough for casual games to be fairs and fun.

and it could even be totally op toptier if kroak combo proves to be too strong. but it would be only 1 miniature, not real state of whole book

Even with the 6++ and potential heals, GG are substantially less tanky than Saurus, also it doesn't really seem like you're thinking about the reality of a battle and how hard it'll be getting 30 models all attacking a single unit whilst also being within range of small aura buffs.

GG also can't be reinforced twice to 30 models in a single unit unless too take a Wight king as a general, so that's another thing to bear in mind.

I'm not saying GG are bad, far from it, but I think Saurus are great from what I've read, and only time will tell how well they perform.

GG are one of the heaviest hitters in the game when buffed right, and the fact saurus can even come close says something - whilst being harder to remove and having access to teleports and movement shenanigans. They fulfil a different role to GG and would be better to compare them to units like liberators, blood warriors etc.

Another thing to note is you're not only comparing two very different units, but you're also comparing two very different armies. Soulblight rely heavily on the glass cannons and array of small aura buffs to get damage in. GG barely move, die to a stiff breeze and the entire army has a whole phase (shooting) that they pretty much don't take part in. The army needs big hammers and easy buffs, always have.

Saurus can also be 3+ save 5+ ward save -1 damage and the army has extremely easy access to making enemy rend 0, giving -1 to hit and so on. They can be real tanks if you want, they dish out enough damage to be decent in combat and tanky, they are quicker than GG and can teleport and so on, they're more a 'jack of all trades master of none' type unit, whereas GG are just GG. They move slow and hit hard, that's it.

Edited by MotherGoose
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As for grave guards.

I should probably mention this.

they cost about as much as stormvermins. And as for reliability in surviving oncoming attacks stormvermins are about as good as grave guards unless the grave guard players play Vyrkos dynsaty and has that artefact that gives his summonable units a 5+ ward, in which case grave guards will be able to take punishment like real champs.

all in all.

grave guards are in every single way better the. Stromvermins.

So considering that I find it quite funny how the seraphon players are currently complaining about them while we in the skaven forum talked about it once and didn’t consider it necessary.

afterall what else are we even supposed to play but stormfiends and thanqoul😂

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I don’t see that Saurus are damage dealers. They are chaos warriors. You can buff them up to do damage, but they can get take objectives with a 3+ save and damage reduction. If you want to compare the buffs you can put on them it should be defensive. 
 

-1 to hit, negate rend etc. 

I think agrodons and kroxigor are meant to deal the damage. That’s where the comparison should be for points cost to other hammers. Of course they also have built in damage reduction. 
 

I agree the book definitely lacks damage. Besides troglodon/Kroak missile it looks mid tier. (And even that is countered pretty hard by nighthaunt, Fyreslayers and potentially khorne?) 

but mid tier is good. The coalesced side of the army seems to have a lot of similarities to StD. Do medium damage with nice defensive buffs. But we have access to support shooting. 

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6 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

per examble how my brain see scrolls.

20 saurus do 34 dmg vs a 4+ save, being in galletians, with all atack, chargin in koatl, slann casting rend spell and skink mortals buff. 

so 400points + 400points behind buffing them. seems prety nice eh

but them you compare them to another infantry unit with similar move atacks etc like grave guard. 30 grave guard not nedding being in galletian only needing a vampire cloose for aura, cant fail anything. and only needing all out atack. will do 35,6 dmg.... not counting smaller bases making everything easier, or necro making them fight again on hero phase or getting tons of models revived every turn, and half unit revived once etc etc. so:

20 saurus do 34dmg vs 4armor for 400p+400p buffing them

30 grave guard do 35.6 for 420p+140p buffing them

or 41,3 dmg if u add velladama spell, rounding it up to same seraphon combo points

fast glimpse see how much better skellys are even being a revived unit, yes has less wound and armor save, but with death ward and multiples revives they are even thoughter. and still vampires and graveguard arent one of the best books. and that saurus tactic is the best one in all book besides kroak mw spam, and it is inferior to only one of the multiples combos in a okish book as soulblight.

still i can sound harsh, because is internet, but it isnt so bad. like i said im sure book will be lower part of middle tier, with even some lucky tourney wins. after some years being on top was obvious we would get this. miniatures are amazing thats most important,and book is fun and good enough for casual games to be fairs and fun.

and it could even be totally op toptier if kroak combo proves to be too strong. but it would be only 1 miniature, not real state of whole book

So 35.6 damage for 560 points for grave guard? I think a lot of things in Seraphon do more damage than that per point. It’s true it’s harder to put into one giant block. But that seems healthier for the game to me.

Edited by Gailon
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3 hours ago, Gailon said:

So 35.6 damage for 560 points for grave guard? I think a lot of things in Seraphon do more damage than that per point. It’s true it’s harder to put into one giant block. But that seems healthier for the game to me.

aginst 4+save, that would be around 70vdmg versus no save target xD

 

and noope, that saurus combo is be best in book. only other thing close are new chikens melee, but they would need to have the ranged version cloose, cant really be reinforced being cavalry with 1", and only figthing in an objetive, that wont really happen. 

still will do fast maths( could be wrong but wont take some minutes to do it slowly on calculator).

melee chikens outside obj alone do 7,6 for 150points

both chikens meleeing and shoting same target do 16 dmg for 300points+130 skinkmage( 430points)

or 20,3 if they are figthing in a objetive

new raptors despite being the absolute best model ever made are reaaally bad ruleswise,i dont even count his ability since it wont ever matter,

so they do 9,1 dmg for 210points

or 10,9 chargin in koatl for 210p

idoneth eels do 9.7 for 180points

so for the points they are even worse than eels, one of the worst unit in the weakest tome of this eddition.

 

i started doing numbers on saurus because they are the best unit once buffed to me.

Edited by Kitsumy
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Funnily enough, far from the doom and gloom some folks are feeling, the rules leaks have made me even more hyped than I already was for the models. I told myself I wouldn't start a Seraphon army until next year when the hype died down and my current hobby projects are farther along, but that might be harder than anticipated.

Sure, they are not the most potent top tier army--I don't actually want that. I like mid-tier, and think more armies (and players) should hope for that honestly. It's healthier for the game. And I find mid-tier armies have less of a roller-coaster experience with balance updates too.

Aside from that, I like what it seems like the Coalesced playstyle will be. The comparison to S2D appeals to me, as I play that already, but the increased monster options and a little bit of shooting would make it stand out from my existing army. I'm currently brainstorming some lists, and being able to throw in 2-3 Carnosaurs alongside a solid block of troops seems like fun.

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You can also not just look at damage done, since this game is about more then that.

It's about movement, screening and controlling objectives and considering all the teleports and the fact that you could redeploy three times with certain builds you could really mess up your opponents plans.

You can win games without destroying a single unit of your opponents and if you are able to destroy a couple of units you probably have a chance to go 5 for 5 on battle tactics with this book.

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13 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

I still processing everything before I start putting things into list, but in general this book remind me a lot of the sylvaneth playstyle. I think most of the its power will come from its mobility and power projection this mobility allows. Outside of the kroak + 2 slanns + astrolith + trogladon lists focusing on getting CPP and dishing out mortals, I fell lists will need to focus their ok-ish melee units and supplement it with shooting/magic damage to eliminate key threats.

 

24 minutes ago, Boingrot Bouncer said:

You can also not just look at damage done, since this game is about more then that.

It's about movement, screening and controlling objectives and considering all the teleports and the fact that you could redeploy three times with certain builds you could really mess up your opponents plans.

You can win games without destroying a single unit of your opponents and if you are able to destroy a couple of units you probably have a chance to go 5 for 5 on battle tactics with this book.

Considering how much mortal wounds kroak is going to put out per turn.

i think you guys will just make mincemeat out of any key threads.

Before they even get a chance to bring slaughter in return

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21 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

kharadron melee build was absolute op on a first glance,

Completely agree. Our 360p unit with Brokk (dmg buff), frigatte (delivery)  admiral (rend) - that's 640p - average 37 wounds (melee and ranged attacks bw). And even if they are 9 models with 4+ save and 2 wounds each, we love them. Of course our frigatte, admiral and Brokk can still shoot and fight, but our OP melee unit seems perfect.

 

20 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

20 saurus do 34dmg vs 4armor for 400p+400p buffing them

To me, it seems awesome that a non-conditional battleline can do that! Congratz to all saurus-fanatics!

Edited by Beliman
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36 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

 

Considering how much mortal wounds kroak is going to put out per turn.

i think you guys will just make mincemeat out of any key threads.

Before they even get a chance to bring slaughter in return

 

I agree, you may not deal a massive amount of damage all the time but taking out a foot hero or a unit will be done quite easy and unless you play against another mage dom Kroak or even slanns will do a lot with their spells.

My problem with what I read is more about the NPE. As a non-competitive player I see a lot of risk of having a lot of feel bad-moments playing against the Seraphon.

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48 minutes ago, Boingrot Bouncer said:

 

I agree, you may not deal a massive amount of damage all the time but taking out a foot hero or a unit will be done quite easy and unless you play against another mage dom Kroak or even slanns will do a lot with their spells.

My problem with what I read is more about the NPE. As a non-competitive player I see a lot of risk of having a lot of feel bad-moments playing against the Seraphon.

Well I’m a skaven player.

and from the looks of it seraphon are going to be an incredible struggle for the rat man.

 

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