AoS Seraphon Battletome 2023 Discussion

[DinoJon]

Hey there, friendly local slann, here! 

With the new Battletome 2023 on the way I would like to start a discussion of the new book with tactics, insights and observations. 

As with all things, especially new, let's be positive and find the best way to play this new tome. 

[Malakithe]

Leaks all over FB right now

[DinoJon]

Just now, Malakithe said:

Leaks all over FB right now

Yeah at this point, all of the rules should be out there with point costs as well. I doubt there is anything missing rules wise from the leaks at this point. 

[Gailon]

Arcane Might command trait on the Starborne Slann seems like it could be really strong. Unfortunately we can’t take ixti grubs for a reroll

But an 8” range endless spell goes to 22” with arcane might and astrolith bearer. Then 8” movement for 30” threat range. Dropping 3 endless spells 30” across the table on turn 1 could really wreck havoc. 

[Malakithe]

56 minutes ago, Gailon said:

Arcane Might command trait on the Starborne Slann seems like it could be really strong. Unfortunately we can’t take ixti grubs for a reroll

But an 8” range endless spell goes to 22” with arcane might and astrolith bearer. Then 8” movement for 30” threat range. Dropping 3 endless spells 30” across the table on turn 1 could really wreck havoc. 

Ooh didnt think about the astrolith to increase the range for endless spells...that could be real spicy

How does the range increase work with the spell portal endless spell? 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Malakithe

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, DinoJon said:

Yeah at this point, all of the rules should be out there with point costs as well. I doubt there is anything missing rules wise from the leaks at this point. 

I saw the points and profiles for the new Saurus and they are roughly around where Chaos Warriors are which im okay with. Coalesced Saurus getting +1 to bites and -1 dmg dealt to them looks pretty good and +1 to sv for being near objectives is great. Really blunts all the dmg2 and higher rend thats going around

[JerekKruger]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

I saw the points and profiles for the new Saurus and they are roughly around where Chaos Warriors are which im okay with. Coalesced Saurus getting +1 to bites and -1 dmg dealt to them looks pretty good and +1 to sv for being near objectives is great. Really blunts all the dmg2 and higher rend thats going around

Yeah Saurus seem about right to me. Maybe a little over costed, but that's a problem which can be dealt with easily.

[JackStreicher]

They feel about right imo. Kroak is bonkers however: They limit the amount of damage certain attacks can do, but Kroak nuking half the board every Seraphon herophase is fine - what?

Kroxigors feel a little too squishy.

Saurus and Aggradons feel right!

 

I am a little worried the -1 damage for coalesced still exists. It was perceived as toxic before, yet it remains. I‘d have preferred if they were given a 6+ or 5+ ward.

Edited April 20, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Twisted Firaun]

Since I encouraged the creation of this thread, I shall now submit my potential Seraphon army's lore: a constellation attempts to harness the power of Lunaghast and the Necroquake, and is driven insane by the secrets revealed to them.

[JerekKruger]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I am a little worried the -1 damage for coalesced still exists. It was perceived as toxic before, yet it remains. I‘d have preferred if they were given a 6+ or 5+ ward.

Yeah, I'm rather surprised by that too. I guess someone in the design team plays coalesced 😄

[Trokair]

With the new Kroxigor I thought it might be time to work on Lizards again, and specifically a Kroxigor centric army now that they can be battleline. They do however appear to have not done enough sunbathing as they are now slower than before and can’t keep up with their little palls.

 

As there are no Kroxigor characters it will have to be a bunch of conversions and count as. Taking the movement, save and wound of the Kroxigor as a baseline and selecting characters that are in line with this I am looking at a 1000p list along the lines of:

Version 1

• Nakai the Wanderer (Saurus Scar-Veteran on Aggradon) 
• Kroxigor mage (Skink Starseer) 
• Kroxigor 
• 2x Kroxigor Warspawned 
• Kroxigor with Solar Engine (Spawn of Chotec) 

Version 2

• Nakai the Wanderer (Saurus Scar-Veteran on Aggradon) 
• Kroxigor Icon bearer (Saurus Astrolith Bearer) 
• Kroxigor mage (Skink Starseer) 
• 2x Kroxigor
• Kroxigor Warspawned 

Thoughts?

[The Brotherhood of Necros]

29 minutes ago, Trokair said:

With the new Kroxigor I thought it might be time to work on Lizards again, and specifically a Kroxigor centric army now that they can be battleline. They do however appear to have not done enough sunbathing as they are now slower than before and can’t keep up with their little palls.

 

As there are no Kroxigor characters it will have to be a bunch of conversions and count as. Taking the movement, save and wound of the Kroxigor as a baseline and selecting characters that are in line with this I am looking at a 1000p list along the lines of:

Version 1

• Nakai the Wanderer (Saurus Scar-Veteran on Aggradon) 
• Kroxigor mage (Skink Starseer) 
• Kroxigor 
• 2x Kroxigor Warspawned 
• Kroxigor with Solar Engine (Spawn of Chotec) 

Version 2

• Nakai the Wanderer (Saurus Scar-Veteran on Aggradon) 
• Kroxigor Icon bearer (Saurus Astrolith Bearer) 
• Kroxigor mage (Skink Starseer) 
• 2x Kroxigor
• Kroxigor Warspawned 

Thoughts?

Love the idea of a little skink priest on or beside a hulking Kroxigor bodyguard for your skink starseer proxy, a sort of divine counterpart to the Lizzies’ most hated foe’s Thanquol and Boneripper! 

[Skreech Verminking]

Personally as a non seraphon player I can say this much.

i really hated playing against the current seraphon book.

most of the time it was a struggle just trying to keep your heroes alive.

while this feature still seems to be a part of the seraphon, at least it is now as it seems kept to one subfaction while the other seems to have lost it.

which I  guess will makes it a lot more pleasurable to fight them, at least one of the subfactions.

i’m also very happy to see that units like the bastialdon got a slight change in shooting, making it a less interesting yet still viable shooting options.

and last but mot least Saurus finally seem playable.

something on the other hand I still consider somewhat toxic is the fact that slann have an unlimited range of unbinding spell.

consider that they are often going around with a +1-3 to their unbinding roll (I might be wrong here though) just makes it unbearable to fight them with any kind of wizards.

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Skreech Verminking

[Gailon]

3 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Personally as a non seraphon player I can say this much.

i really hated playing against the current seraphon book.

most of the time it was a struggle just trying to keep your heroes alive.

while this feature still seems to be a part of the seraphon, at least it is now as it seems kept to one subfaction while the other seems to have lost it.

which I  guess will makes it a lot more pleasurable to fight them, at least one of the subfactions.

i’m also very happy to see that units like the bastialdon got a slight change in shooting, making it a less interesting yet still viable shooting options.

and last but mot least Saurus finally seem playable.

something on the other hand I still consider somewhat toxic is the fact that slann have an unlimited range of unbinding spell.

consider that they are often going around with a +1-3 to their unbinding roll (I might be wrong here though) just makes it unbearable to fight them with any kind of wizards.

 

The board wide unbind is definitely a npe for a lot of people. But they did remove the astrolism, so as I am reading it it will only be a +1 (+2 for kroak). 

[Skreech Verminking]

38 minutes ago, Gailon said:

The board wide unbind is definitely a npe for a lot of people. But they did remove the astrolism, so as I am reading it it will only be a +1 (+2 for kroak). 

That does make it better.

[The Brotherhood of Necros]

Greetings, cold bloods!

I haven’t been this excited by a release in a long time. 

My dad was my gateway to Warhammer, some thirty years ago. I’d sit by the gaming table for hours while he battled against Skaven and Bretonnians. One of his favourite armies was the Lizardmen and they’ve captured my imagination ever since.

This is my first foray into the Lizards myself. I’m a little bit obsessed with the idea of the “long defeat” — faded glories, dwindling strength, irreparable loss, impossible but noble battles, gradual declines, last stands and so forth. Few races illustrate this quite like the Lizardmen of old and I’ll be channeling it for my Seraphon. 

Other things I love that will be reflected in this project:

—Underwater ruins

—Lovecraft

—Cults/folklore

—Horror

—Dioramas

—The slann aesthetic 

Finally, I’m also keen to shift away from the Meso-American influences slightly in favour of more Ancient Briton vibes. Think the Celts, Albion, my lovely wet, boggy homeland, the UK. As well as being excited to root a project in, and make some mythology inspired by, the sort of local legends I grew up on, I think this will add a certain dank, squamous feel to the army when it eventually crawls from the swamps… 

The scene 

Picture ruins, half-swallowed by marsh water and wreathed in mist. It’s cold. Quiet, except for the croak of toads, crow chatter, an occasional splash. Each stone is ancient, towering, almost cyclopean save for the lingering suggestion where lichen fades that it had once been well-ordered, regular: perfect in its original construction. No more. 

Columns rise like immovable reeds, by which the wary can map a treacherous route deeper into the mire. The unwary vanish, to join the base of the monoliths beneath the brackish surface. Walls sag. Arches slump. The sun appears to melt. Countless times you almost slip or trip, arms windmilling, and once come face-to-face with a broadly smiling visage, stone but no less unsettling, its lips like two fat slugs. Wade out far enough, and other things yawn back at you from out of the water: the gaping mouths of passageways long choked by bullrushes and weeds. 

Your shadow starts as behind you, a sudden light wavers. Another. Then another, and now the squelch of hurried boots churning through the mud. No fireflies or will-o’-the-wisps these but torches and the ones bearing them bobbing in the gloom. To wait and greet whoever has tracked you to here, now, or keep to yourself and push on alone?

You see the figure seconds before it hops through the mist. Cloak flapping. Legs kicking. Hands splashing in the shallows. When it looks up at you from behind a grinning human skull, you turn, throw yourself into that tunnel and don’t look back. 

Darkness, of the sort that makes you wish for moonlight, a torch, matches: anything to shed light on where you’re treading next. You stare until your eyes must be bulging. They water, your tears lost against the damp, the sweat. Still you stumble onwards, the prospect of your pursuer always a hop behind you. Your fingers find stonework — the tunnel wall? — and stay there, fumbling crack by crack deeper into the dark. Occasionally you turn, following sudden twists and turns. Left. Right. Left again. Seconds stretch on for hours or are gobbled up in the blink of a strained eye. Sometimes your fingertips brush moss, other times the angular scratch of what might be old runes or whatever passes for writing in this primitive place. Even as you think it, your choice of words feels wrong to you: for all the ancient architecture and irrevocable decay, the ghost of civilisation hangs over you, like a shed skin or scum on old water. 

The first you see of it is a glimmer. A mote of light, blueish, like any of the countless others to have haunted your vision since losing yourself in the dark. But as you stagger onwards it steadies, grows, getting larger and brighter on your approach. You pick up your pace, clawing at the brickwork, breath gasping, nails scratching against the rough stone.

The stairs appear as if from out of nowhere. You don’t see them or sense them in any way until your feet are dangling into nothingness and then you are sliding, tumbling down. Stars explode behind your eyes, a constellation you do not recognise and will never see again. A splash breaks your fall. 

The water is not deep but it is all around you. A glassy mirror, stretching off into nothingness, almost unbroken except for the ripples shimmering around you. Tall, rectangular columns rise from the water, weathered yet defiant. On either side of you, a short swim away, stairwells like this one lead to other passageways. The ceiling wavers back at you from the glassy waters, hewn immaculately from titanic slabs, hoary with stagnant slime and the tickle of far-reaching roots, all of it visible by the faint glow of two vast rocks embedded in the roof.

Their light bathes the room in a submarine blue, revealing every minute crack even as it turns the pool beneath into a massive mirror. For the first time you see the writing your fingers have traced, more pictures than words. Glyphs, not runes, etched timelessly in stone. Faces stare up at you from the water, statues hewn into the likeness of frogs and fish and things that might be neither or both reflected in its surface or perhaps watching you from just beneath it. Your face swims amongst them, thinner than you ever remember seeing yourself and impossibly pale, almost sunken beneath that unfaltering blue. You are still staring at yourself when several other faces appear beside you. 

The vault echoes with your cry as you stumble backwards, only to realise those faces are reflections too and you are backing into them. A second shout echoes with your first as you plunge back down the steps and into the water, but the faces and the people to whom they belong don’t follow. In fact, they make no move at all, standing or crouching every bit as still as the statues around you. Some watch from behind skull masks. Others stare unashamedly down at you, beards knotted, fish bones dangling from their ears, noses, and the cowls of their hoods.

Slowly, cold seeping into every inch of your body, you swim out from the stairs. For a few moments, it is still possible to touch the bottom, the rest of the stairwell descending into the deeps, and then you are treading water. You make for one of the other passages — not the closest one, or the one after that, but something far enough away from the first that if your pursuers follow, you might have a a chance yet to run. 

Overhead, one of the two rocks looms closer. Its light washes over you, strangely warm when it hits your face. A tingle passes through you that has nothing to do with the cold. Indeed, even the water here feels warmer, if only marginally. A faint sense of tranquility settles over you and for the briefest moment you dare to close your eyes.

When you open them, a monster is towering over you. 

You thrash, the surface of the pool shattering around you, before you realise this too is a statue. It is gargantuan, made smaller only by its hunched pose, not dissimilar to that of a diver about to plunge into the water, and as you stare up at it, you cannot help but feel that that is where it belongs. There is something at once ichthyic and batrachian about it, a texture both scaled and slimy, that feels both strange and familiar. You realise that you have seen it before, or something much like it, carved in stone, smiling up at you from the brown marsh waters. The rocks have painted this one an aqueous blue, but the material from which it has been made shines unmistakably though: a vast effigy moulded from gold, tarnished, even green in some spots but bright where it catches the light and the waters beneath.

The scuff of leather on stone makes you turn. Your audience is still there, unmoving at the top of the stairs, except they have moved since last you checked, for to a man they have dropped kneeling to the cold stone floor.  Quickly you make for the nearest stairwell, pulling yourself as quietly as you’re able from out of the shadow of the statue and through the water before they look up. Before long, your boot taps the first submerged steps.

Up ahead, two smaller statues stand sentry either side of your exit. You think of newts, or miniature versions of the idol behind you. Despite your desperation to be free of this place, you draw up before the sudden darkness. The portal is black, impenetrable, and the prospect of wandering blindly through the shadows again sets your heart racing. A faint breeze carries through it, rank and swampy. You are still staring into the inky blackness when the statue to your left blinks.

Your breath hitches as you stumble backwards. The steps are wet, like everything else in this place, and you immediately slip. The crash as you hit the water is like that of a stone striking a mirror. The pool shatters.

Water fills your mouth. Spluttering, you rise to the surface, but it has filled your eyes too. Even so, you can just make out the portal and the empty alcoves either side of it. Where have the statues gone? Even as you think it, you don’t want to know. The breeze comes again, carrying the stench of outside and something else: a voice. No, dozens of human voices, united in choir. The word means nothing to you, but it crawls down your spine anyway: 

“Sunkegh! Sunkegh! Sunkegh!”

You are still shivering when the hand folds around your ankle and drags you under. 

TLDR

An Albion-themed human cult dedicated to the worship of the Old One Tzunki and the small spawning of blessed skinks who still worship him from the ruins of a sunken temple-city, long swallowed by the marshes.

Edited April 20, 2023 by The Brotherhood of Necros

[woolf]

3 hours ago, JerekKruger said:

Yeah, I'm rather surprised by that too. I guess someone in the design team plays coalesced 😄

on the other hand this effect seems to be getting more common if anything, NH, DOK and now OBR all got it too right? 

[Malakithe]

Kind of a strange move to not give the laserdon any abilities or rules whatsoever

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

10 hours ago, Gailon said:

Arcane Might command trait on the Starborne Slann seems like it could be really strong. Unfortunately we can’t take ixti grubs for a reroll

But an 8” range endless spell goes to 22” with arcane might and astrolith bearer. Then 8” movement for 30” threat range. Dropping 3 endless spells 30” across the table on turn 1 could really wreck havoc. 

Unless I missed something or they errata it, that doesn't work until late engagement. The number of Endless Spells you can control is a separate rule from how many you can cast in a single turn. They total for each happens to be 1 by default, but increasing the first doesn't inherently increase the second.

[Gailon]

7 hours ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Unless I missed something or they errata it, that doesn't work until late engagement. The number of Endless Spells you can control is a separate rule from how many you can cast in a single turn. They total for each happens to be 1 by default, but increasing the first doesn't inherently increase the second.

I didn’t know that rule, but that does help make this a lot more reasonable. 
 

Then here is my prediction for a npe combo. Is there something that prevents this from working? 
 

Kroak and trogolodon. Teleport the troglodon as a heroic action up to the opponent army. Cast celestial deliverance 4 times at 18” range from the troglodon and +3 to cast (no rerolls though). Doing 12d3 mortal wounds. The troglodon can cast mystic shield on itself or it’s warscroll spell into the enemy army to potentially cut off runs. 
 

if you double turn, do it again. If not use finest hour on the troglodon and it’s in their face at -1 to hit (with a roar to prevent aoa), 4+ save that  can stack go to 0+ with stegadon helm, finest hour, mystic shield and aod.  Could even cast the -1 to wound spell on him (giving up one celestial deliverance cast). I’m not saying it will survive a turn, but it will take a lot of the opponents energy to kill. So it’s not an all in on needing a double. 
 

Does that work? That seems crushing into anything that doesn’t have inherent spell defense. And I’d still be happy trying it into Fyreslayers with a 4+ spell shrug aura. It might feed khorne a lot of blood tithe. 
 

i don’t know. Seems to be potentially very oppressive. 

[Tizianolol]

I dont wanna be pessimistic but I think the kroak combo is our only competitive choice we got. I like rapdadons finesse playstyle expecially in fangs of sotek  and the fact we can summon VERY easy makes me think about some intersting lists anyway. At least after a fast read of the book.

An interesting combo wuth rapdadons could be :

- put 5 rapdadons hunters on the list, move them in range of the enemy unit u wanna target

- turn 2 ( maybe 1 too) summon 5 lancers within 7" from target unit( with slann starborne artefact)

and charge with +1 from lancers warscroll, triggering another shoot from hunters. 

The problem of that is we can clear screens very effectively,  idk if we got the damage to kill opponent hammers!

[Kitsumy]

well i know i sound harsh and like criying, but only states facts as economist who knows some maths.

everything do way too low dmg with way too high point costs.

like allready said despite general seraphon hate actual book was weakest one since 6vmonths ago(under 45%winrate and only army without any 5/0 on this generals). and we lost most of abilitys buffing, bye bye buff stackings, everything is the same or worse and instead points going down to make up for it, they were increased hahaha

 

per example, why some guys think saurus are good now? they were useless before, now they doubled his cost but only doubled his wounds.... gw forgot to double his dmg too. so in reality they are like 25% worse than a allready bad scroll. 

 

or kroak. he lost +1 to cast on asterysm, lost comet, comands are useless now since we lost every comand ability. yes it can cast his spell 4 times now, but noone casted it before since noone was in range never so who cares,gained 2" on his spell and not nedding a 2+ to do dmg and spell difficulty not raising on every cast, not enough to go from bad to omg amazing broken for me, still reaally easy to kill, 8wounds at 4+ without ward, i always oneshot him on turn1 with my idoneths on every game, unless he takes guard, but then he cost 540points,680 etc etc for every guard unit

same on slann, lost +1 to cast of asterysm and comet, and not being able to garrison on our scenography anymore.

every dinosaur lost bites and some atacks in someway with the removal of the ability stacking( trice chief could have even +5 atacks before), and everything went up by far.

poor basti was absurdly overpriced only for being able to double shoot, how many times was used on sotek per example??, they deleted the 2 shotting, nerfed the dmg but keept the absurded cost...

skinks are totally dead, even zombyes do same dmg for almost half points and gives back wound, revive etc

new raptors have the worst mechanic i have seen, a cavalry that get rewarded for fail in his job, a cavalry is done to charge and kill the unit,thats why everyone uses spears on them always, getting a buff for not killing something is useless, and even then rival only have to disengage and you loose every charge buff haha

kudos to engine. as the first miniature with negative dmg, since it always will dmg himself instead doing dmg, unless you dont do anything for several turns.

best thing about book are the best miniatures in all aos. and that haters shouldnt cry anymore about we being op.

 

ok, end of facts/cry. now my 2 cents 

a unit of 20 saurus on koatls charging with all out atack, priest mortals buff and slamm buff of +rend will be expensive but brutal if get to hit doing an average of 10 mw and 21 rend2 dmg. it would delete almost everything despite nedding 400points of saurus 1cp, 2 spells going off, getting the charge and 400points buffing them. so 800points and somethings going off, but is the best thing i can come with this book.

 

or the obvious kroak+ kamikace troglodon, but the combo nedding 1k+ points only to do at best 24mw 1 turn and then losing troglodon and all dmg dont seems very nice to me.

not saying book be totally useless and fire up our minis lol, but im sure it will be a 45-49% winrate book that get some lucky 5/0s, so around the lower half of table. unless kroak prove to be op, since magic isnt so easy to math up, and it could be too strong like some people thinks,

Edited April 21, 2023 by Kitsumy

[Kitsumy]

3 hours ago, Gailon said:

 

Then here is my prediction for a npe combo. Is there something that prevents this from working? 
 

Kroak and trogolodon. Teleport the troglodon as a heroic action up to the opponent army. Cast celestial deliverance 4 times at 18” range from the troglodon and +3 to cast (no rerolls though). Doing 12d3 mortal wounds. The troglodon can cast mystic shield on itself or it’s warscroll spell into the enemy army to potentially cut off runs. 
 

if you double turn, do it again. 

 

i don’t know. Seems to be potentially very oppressive. 

yes i think you can do it, and of course wouldnt be fun, but not sure if it would be good enough for tourneys. since troglodon will die 100% on first oponnent turn after be teleported or in turn1 if you are against a strong shoting army. then all ur plans are ruined, and need like 1100points only on combo.

you can do it now, but only 3 casts and harder on following spells but with kroak having the +1 to cast of asterysm, and noone used it never despite people thinking about it on kroak release.

[Gailon]

1 hour ago, Kitsumy said:

yes i think you can do it, and of course wouldnt be fun, but not sure if it would be good enough for tourneys. since troglodon will die 100% on first oponnent turn after be teleported or in turn1 if you are against a strong shoting army. then all ur plans are ruined, and need like 1100points only on combo.

you can do it now, but only 3 casts and harder on following spells but with kroak having the +1 to cast of asterysm, and noone used it never despite people thinking about it on kroak release.

You can’t do it now because teleport is in movement phase. The key change is teleport in hero phase. It is a lot of points and may fail too often with spell shrugs and chance of miscast. 
 

everything does just seem too expensive.

 

i do like the game going to something with more survivability. That isn’t just delete unit, delete unit, continue. It seems like they have been printing a lot more stuff that hits on 4’s. 
 

The army seems to have good tricks and absolutely no damage at high points. 

[Beliman]

@Kitsumy 

I'm not a Seraphon player, but I've seen the same argument in other 3.0 battletomes too. 2 months ago, my battletome was released, and all my KO friends (we have a group with 150 KO admirals) started arguing about how bad is our new book: expensive units (170p gunhauler average 3 wounds to 4+save with a range of 12"), our most Elite unit Wound on 4+ (and we lost aethergold for that +1 to wound), 90% of our artifacts are "once-per-game", we can't Fly High as many times and we need Commands to do what are we supposed to do, we lost our Ammunition, etc...

With all this going around, I was (and still I'am) really happy about our book, because this new book unlocks diferent gameplays: melee combat, tech-heroes, more battlelines (take in mind that we have a small roster), etc...

The weird things is that people are winning more than before. There are a few interactions that probably need a FAQ (mainly Tuskhelmet and Bridge), but we have so much versatility that we are in better position than when we had better raw damage (and free infinite teleports).

After reading the Seraphon book, I've got the same feeling. Buffing "that" unit at the right momment could mean a lot more than just raw damage.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Beliman