Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion - 3rd edition

[Overread]

A new  Tome is unleashed and the legion marches to a new beat - thus the old thread passes and a new is arisen!


Previous thread:

 

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Between seeing the Petrifex resilience in action (I did a battle report lite in the previous thread) and the possibly-not-an-error option to run Gothizzar in units of two (they don't have Single on the Pitched Battle Profile!) I am torn between selling the Harvester from the Mortisan Tithe-Echelon I've been holding onto, or keeping it and buying a second one. I feel like 10 wounds feels a little too fragile for the points*, even in Petrifex, but a reinforced unit would be hilarious.

 

*I'm not entirely consistent here, as I am okay with Morghasts, but I like their models better!

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

9 hours ago, Overread said:

A new  Tome is unleashed and the legion marches to a new beat - thus the old thread passes and a new is arisen!


Previous thread:

 

Thanks for making the new thread, but we will also get a subforum for OBR, as well, right?

[JerekKruger]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Thanks for making the new thread, but we will also get a subforum for OBR, as well, right?

Doesn't seem to happen these days? Neither S2D nor GSG have their own subforums.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, JerekKruger said:

Doesn't seem to happen these days? Neither S2D nor GSG have their own subforums.

@Gaz Taylor is the one with enough admin rights to do it. Hey Gaz! I'm sure you're a busy man, but I hope you can get around to it at some point

[Gaz Taylor]

4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

@Gaz Taylor is the one with enough admin rights to do it. Hey Gaz! I'm sure you're a busy man, but I hope you can get around to it at some point

I’ll have a chat with Ben about it as I know he had plans about reorganising stuff but not sure when as I’m busy with work (team has shrunk and I was already doing job of a few people and trying not to get stressed). 

[Overread]

7 hours ago, JerekKruger said:

Doesn't seem to happen these days? Neither S2D nor GSG have their own subforums.

It's also cause forum activity reduced. In general subforums work great when there's LOTS of threads about a faction so we can hive them off to their own spot. What's actually happened is the mega-threads prove the most popular and we don't get a swarm of separate threads that makes giving a whole section as much value as it used too. 

[Sception]

should nighthsunt & spulblight be reconsolidated then?  i understand chaos or order forums being too hasslesome, but i liked the singular death board.

[Flippy]

I’ve had a game today against HoS, 1500 points. We played with a casual battlepack, so generally just objective control, no battle tactics, battalions, grand strategies.

 I’ve took Arkhan, Boneshaper (Key) and Liege (Diversionary Tactics, Helm). Then Deathriders, Harbringers and 2 units of Immortis. Petrifex Elite.

The HoS came with KoS, Epitome, Masque and lots of shooting - 2 x Blissbarb Archers, one Seekers and one Hellstriders.

They were really fast and came close on the first round. But the shooting was too weak - he killed a deathrider or two and two immortis - on my turn the damage was healed and one Immortis returned. His magic (4 casts in total) was blocked by Arkhan and Boneshaper.

On my turn the mass combat started, as Deathriders, Liege and both Immortis units made their charges (Arkhan and Harbringers failed) - and that was basically the end, as the KoS failed to deliver and other units were unable to handle the Immortis.

End of second round he managed to kill my Deathriders and Liege but that was it.

My general feeling is that every single unit was worth it. Even the Harbringers, expensive but the flexibility of deep strikes is something special in OBR. The Immortis fell like a benchmark unit now - every time you spend 200 points, ask yourself “is it as good as these guys”. Seriously, super strong all around.

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

New OBR definitely seem very tanky and healy again. What do you guys think are the chances that we will see another nerf for Petrifex or Katakros in the future? Are they as problematic in the current environement as they were during their 2nd edition launch?

[JerekKruger]

32 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

New OBR definitely seem very tanky and healy again. What do you guys think are the chances that we will see another nerf for Petrifex or Katakros in the future? Are they as problematic in the current environement as they were during their 2nd edition launch?

Is Katakros that bad? He's got plenty of good abilities, and is fairly tanky himself, but he's not cheap. You're paying a little over 20% of your army for a model which is incredibly slow, isn't going to contribute much to capturing objective, and whilst he can hit hard under the right circumstances, those circumstances don't always present themselves.

I feel like his strong buffing abilities are about right to round out his points. His (nearly) board wide super command is very powerful, but you've sacrificed a fair chunk of points to get it, and a lot of units that can receive it aren't that powerful by default. They only become scary with a bunch of buffs stacked on them.

Petrifex on the other hand, maybe? With the right build a lot of your army has one if the best survivability buffs around, and the units that can receive it are natively some of your best. The question is how will GW nerf it? They are usually reluctant to make significant changes to rules themselves, preferring to use points as a balancing tool, so unless it's really broken my guess is they'll leave it as is and it's raise the points of Hekatos units. This will suck for anyone not running Petrifex who wants to run Hekatos though, so I'm hoping it turns out not to be as powerful as feared.

[Volkhov]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

New OBR definitely seem very tanky and healy again. What do you guys think are the chances that we will see another nerf for Petrifex or Katakros in the future? Are they as problematic in the current environement as they were during their 2nd edition launch?

I think the change to shield wall among other things keeps Katakros from being over the top. In 2nd he was giving mortek blocks +1 to a rerollable save, now you have to pick between the 3+ or a 4+ that  ignore modifiers up or down 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, JerekKruger said:

Is Katakros that bad? He's got plenty of good abilities, and is fairly tanky himself, but he's not cheap. You're paying a little over 20% of your army for a model which is incredibly slow, isn't going to contribute much to capturing objective, and whilst he can hit hard under the right circumstances, those circumstances don't always present themselves.

I mentioned him mainly because he is one of the two things that really turns on the defense of OBR units. And also because of the history of OBR, where they had the Petrifex +1 saves at launch, and then when that was nerfed people switched to Praetorians with Katakros to get +1 save back (even though the subfaction was previously inferior). Katakros still gives +1 to saves now, but his ability to do so is no longer locked to Praetorians and can actually be combined with the damage reduction from Petrifex. That the same time, Immortis Guard have become a lot better. You can now feasibly use them as your main battleline, and they will have a 2+ save, -1 damage with the Katakros/Petrifex setup. In 2nd edition, people found going up against blocks of regenerating Mortek on high saves un-interactive. I wonder if this will be the case again or whether the general power level can now bear it. His points may be high for a buff piece, but spending a third of your 2000 points on buff pieces is not exactly uncommon, so I don't think it matters that much. You can still get enough units in your list to play objectives no problem.

To be clear, I don't think Katakros necessarily is a problem. But I would like to hear some opinions about the state of the game from others.

 

1 hour ago, JerekKruger said:

Petrifex on the other hand, maybe? With the right build a lot of your army has one if the best survivability buffs around, and the units that can receive it are natively some of your best. The question is how will GW nerf it? They are usually reluctant to make significant changes to rules themselves, preferring to use points as a balancing tool, so unless it's really broken my guess is they'll leave it as is and it's raise the points of Hekatos units. This will suck for anyone not running Petrifex who wants to run Hekatos though, so I'm hoping it turns out not to be as powerful as feared.

I have no idea either, to be honest. I think a weaker version of -1 damage would be "ignore the first wound per phase", so maybe that. I definitely hope points don't go up, I think they are pretty much perfect right now: You need to make decisions when list building and can't just have everything, but points are not so tight that you can't build playable lists and most units seem competitively priced. Only the Ossifector and Soulreaper seem too expensive, I'd say.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[JerekKruger]

43 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I definitely hope points don't go up...

I hope so too. As a relatively elite army it could easily reach the "it's hard to even field a feasible army" level if points go up too much.

It does concern me that some pretty good competitive players seem to think OBR and SBGL are both very good books.

[Flippy]

45 minutes ago, Volkhov said:

I think the change to shield wall among other things keeps Katakros from being over the top. In 2nd he was giving mortek blocks +1 to a rerollable save, now you have to pick between the 3+ or a 4+ that  ignore modifiers up or down 

The Mortek Guard is not a problem anymore. Immortis / Stalkers can be - if you surround Katakros with them you have an extremely durable & killy castle. The downside is speed and objective control, obviously. I have to play proper 2000 to check this setup.

[JerekKruger]

Just now, Flippy said:

The Mortek Guard is not a problem anymore. Immortis / Stalkers can be - if you surround Katakros with them you have an extremely durable & killy castle. The downside is speed and objective control, obviously. I have to play proper 2000 to check this setup.

It does feel like Katakros + Immortis Guard can do a good job of waddling onto an objective then never moving off it. They are very tough.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

12 minutes ago, Flippy said:

The Mortek Guard is not a problem anymore. Immortis / Stalkers can be - if you surround Katakros with them you have an extremely durable & killy castle. The downside is speed and objective control, obviously. I have to play proper 2000 to check this setup.

I think capture power is probably not even that big of a concern right now. Looking at some recent tournament winning lists, a lot of them run min-size units of 10 models max. Since 6 Immortis/Stalkers capture for 12, that actually seems completely fine.

[JerekKruger]

40 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think capture power is probably not even that big of a concern right now. Looking at some recent tournament winning lists, a lot of them run min-size units of 10 models max. Since 6 Immortis/Stalkers capture for 12, that actually seems completely fine.

Though of course if Petrifex OBR becomes the new hotness maybe that'll be the way to counter it I guess.

[Flippy]

27 minutes ago, JerekKruger said:

Though of course if Petrifex OBR becomes the new hotness maybe that'll be the way to counter it I guess.

Maybe, but you need a unit that has both the numbers to take the objective and the resilience to stand the punishment (double beating) and survive the battleshock. I don't have detailed knowledge of all the armies, but thinking of the ones I own and play against... maybe Ironjawz, but without the increased damage I doubt it. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

19 minutes ago, Flippy said:

Maybe, but you need a unit that has both the numbers to take the objective and the resilience to stand the punishment (double beating) and survive the battleshock. I don't have detailed knowledge of all the armies, but thinking of the ones I own and play against... maybe Ironjawz, but without the increased damage I doubt it. 

OBR armies are definitely capable of some pretty intense damage spikes. Especially Immortis with their once-per-game fight twice. But it is also not a stretch to get them to fight on 2+/2+, especially if you are running Katakros for that big +1 to hit bubble. I suspect a unit of 6 Immortis bump most horde units off the table if they really want to.

The actual answer is probably mortal wound spam. Although with their 5 wounds per model and a potential 5+ ward on demand in the combat phase, Immortis will probably hold up to that better than a lot of other units, as well. Shooting, charge and hero phase mortals ought to be able to make a dent, though.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Mortal wounds, especially in the hero phase, will hurt and be a potential weakness for the army. It's also worth noting that with how much Katakros leans into a melee castle, battleplans and their objective placement are going to play an outsize role in the army's effectiveness if he remains a key piece. In the current GHB season, melee castles do fine because most battleplans don't punish bunching up as much as something like Silksteel Nests from the last season. Go back to 6 or 8 objective battleplans, especially without midboard objectives, and Katakros becomes worse (not bad, but worse).

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

What are you guy's opinions on the lesser used legions?

I feel like the benefits of Mortis Praetorians and Petrifex are pretty clear. You play Praetorians if you want to play mixed arms and to use the Praetorians named characters. And you play Petrifex if you want to run big boy spam.

Two other legions have pretty clear themes, too: Crematorians and Stalliarch Lords. The obvious way to build crematorians is to run lots of Morteks and recursion like Harvesters and Boneshapers. Probably a pretty decent list, even, if you feel like painting 60 Mortek. Stalliarch Lords get you reroll charges on mounted units, so Arkhan, the Liege-Kavalos and Deathriders. It seems OK if you want to play the spam list. You can gamble for more charge mortals with it if you want. Although the Praetorians counter charge might still be better.

I am the least sure about Null Myriad and Ivory Host. The problem I see with Null Myriad is that, while the spell ignore is potentially strong, it does not advance your own game plan, but only makes the opponent's game plan harder to achieve if it involves heavy use of offensive/debuffing magic. For Ivory Host, I think their buff is potentially powerful, but I don't know how to reliably make it happen. Go all-in on counter strikes? Seems suboptimal since there are lots of ways to buff you units in OBR that don't involve getting hit first.

[Expendable Grunt]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Two other legions have pretty clear themes, too: Crematorians and Stalliarch Lords. The obvious way to build crematorians is to run lots of Morteks and recursion like Harvesters and Boneshapers. Probably a pretty decent list, even, if you feel like painting 60 Mortek. Stalliarch Lords get you reroll charges on mounted units, so Arkhan, the Liege-Kavalos and Deathriders. It seems OK if you want to play the spam list. You can gamble for more charge mortals with it if you want. Although the Praetorians counter charge might still be better.

I am the least sure about Null Myriad and Ivory Host. The problem I see with Null Myriad is that, while the spell ignore is potentially strong, it does not advance your own game plan, but only makes the opponent's game plan harder to achieve if it involves heavy use of offensive/debuffing magic. For Ivory Host, I think their buff is potentially powerful, but I don't know how to reliably make it happen. Go all-in on counter strikes? Seems suboptimal since there are lots of ways to buff you units in OBR that don't involve getting hit first.

Crematorians Mortek spam seems like it will be pretty powerful given the recursion the army has access to, with the added bonus of being more friendly to large models now, as it is based on wounds characteristic rather than models slain (Katakros exploding for 20 dice is certainly... something). Then again everything in the army can be at least -2 rend with a command ability, so mortals don't fill the armour-cracking niche that they might do for some armies.

I feel the Stalliarch Lords will pretty much be as powerful as the Deathriders warscroll, which isn't super great now as they kind of fill a medium cavalry role. If their spears gave them a 'lance bonus' as they do for several other factions (either -1 rend or +1 damage on the charge, sometimes both), then the subfaction would be significantly more powerful, as making your charges would be even more important.

The Null Myriad as very much a silver bullet, but at least it's a pretty damn powerful one against offensive magic armies. That said, I don't see anyone taking this without knowing who they're facing, and if they do take it knowing they're against someone like a Tzeentch, it's just a bit mean.

I can see some much better players than I using endless spells such as the Burning Head to 'activate' key units in an Ivory Host army before an engagement, but i'm wary of anything my opponent can limit/control with clever play. It seems like alpha strikes and strikes first/last shenanigans in the hands of a skilled player could really shut down the usefulness of this bonus.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Expendable Grunt

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Yeah, sadly I think the subfactions are once again very uneven. Petrifex and Mortis Praetorians are the obvious ones, and I think Crematorians have actually snuck surpisingly close to that level with the scaling for wounds and the available recursion.

Stalliarch Lords probably got worse than before, and while Ivory Host technically improved, they had so very far to go. Both are pretty bad right now, in my opinion--which is a crying shame, because both have super cool themes. One of my big hopes for an eventual line expansion of OBR is a monster kit for Ghuri-Xza, the Ivory Host leader.

Null Myriad, while functional in many cases, might actually be the roughest choice due to their silver bullet nature. Burning your subfaction pick on a read of the tournament meta could be worth it, but it would still be up to pairings. And in casual games, it is either irrelevant or you really need to clear it with your opponent in order to not be rude.

Edited April 18, 2023 by RocketPropelledGrenade
apparently a really innocuous word was hit by the profanity filter.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

37 minutes ago, Expendable Grunt said:

Crematorians Mortek spam seems like it will be pretty powerful given the recursion the army has access to, with the added bonus of being more friendly to large models now, as it is based on wounds characteristic rather than models slain (Katakros exploding for 20 dice is certainly... something). Then again everything in the army can be at least -2 rend with a command ability, so mortals don't fill the armour-cracking niche that they might do for some armies.

I had actually completely missed that Crematorian explosions now scale off of wounds characteristic. That's actually super nice. I suspect that Mortek are still the best choice if you want to lean into the effect because they die frequently and are easy to heal, but this rules change means that other unit are easier to integrate into a Crematorians list. Some have better wounds per point than Mortek, too.

As a side note, Katakros won't explode for huge numbers of dice, sadly, since he comes with the Mortek Praetorians keyword on his warscroll. You can explode Arkhan, though, who honestly probably deserves it.

In my opinion, I think Crematorians is pretty neat because the mortal wound kick back on an army that wants to grind fights on objectives gives your opponent competing incentives: If they engage your troops, their units will get blown up, but if they don't engage you win the objective game. I think that serves the general OBR game plan pretty well.

43 minutes ago, Expendable Grunt said:

I can see some much better players than I using endless spells such as the Burning Head to 'activate' key units in an Ivory Host army before an engagement, but i'm wary of anything my opponent can limit/control with clever play. It seems like alpha strikes and strikes first/last shenanigans in the hands of a skilled player could really shut down the usefulness of this bonus.

I always kind of dislike self-hurting to trigger these kinds of abilities, but I suppose it is an option to just lob a Burning Head into your Stalkers or something. Still, all this work for an offensive buff in the same order of magnitude as +1 to hit... You can already buff stack effortlessly in OBR. It feels like just hitting the opponent with that Burning Head instead might be the better use of the spell.

27 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

One of my big hopes for an eventual line expansion of OBR is a monster kit for Ghuri-Xza, the Ivory Host leader.

That sounds super cool. I think that OBR is currently an example of an army where they made the limited amount of warscrolls work very well and as a result every unit has a place and the faction's play style and identity are clear. Because of this, I don't necessarily know that I want them to get a ranged troop option ala Mortek archers. But I think a cool generic/character monster kit would be a nice addition.