beasts of chaos Beasts of Chaos 3.0

[Myrdin]

Bestigors are way to overpriced in my oppinion. If they were 160 I`d say that be a somewhat fair price, considering they are 2A and 1 dmg only and in the point range they sit now everything else we have hits harder or lasts longer, or both.

At this point cost they need to have more synergy with their own passive abilities and better stat line. If not then they need to drop a big chunk in points.

A good player making big plays with Beastmen is not unheard of, but thats the 1/100 veteran who can play literally any other army and still come on top case.

[Dolomedes]

27 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Bestigors are way to overpriced in my oppinion. If they were 160 I`d say that be a somewhat fair price, considering they are 2A and 1 dmg only and in the point range they sit now everything else we have hits harder or lasts longer, or both.

At this point cost they need to have more synergy with their own passive abilities and better stat line. If not then they need to drop a big chunk in points.

A good player making big plays with Beastmen is not unheard of, but thats the 1/100 veteran who can play literally any other army and still come on top case.

I agree, the cost doesn't really justify the output. I think there's a place for them as an anvil unit if their points come down a bit. Bestigors, like Dragon Ogres and the Shaggoth, are likely over costed because of how well they did last season.

We have to settle up our 'Fun tax'.

[Myrdin]

57 minutes ago, Dolomedes said:

I agree, the cost doesn't really justify the output. I think there's a place for them as an anvil unit if their points come down a bit. Bestigors, like Dragon Ogres and the Shaggoth, are likely over costed because of how well they did last season.

We have to settle up our 'Fun tax'.

I think they missed out on making Bestigors feel "truly elite" by not giving them the Elite rule heh. I like the idea of them interacting when command points are being spent on orders, but this current version seems more like a half thought through beta test of what it could and should actually be for the unit to have a proper place while being fun.

My TLDR interpretation of their abilities would be: Despoilers - "when a unit within 6" of this unit (Bestigors) receives a Order, this unit gains +1 attack up to max of 1 for that turn."

Remove the second ability and instead give them the Elite special rule.

Drop them to 180-200 points and go have some well deserved fun.

In this way you would have a self sufficient unit that is no longer reliant just on the enemy orders but can pop their own if need to be, and become a grindy anvil or almost as choppy unit like Tzaangors.

Sadly Warscrolls dont change in between books (or a miracle redraw of the unit happens), so the best we can hope for now is them dropping to 160, where with the current rules they might at least be considered viable. (since Tzaans are at 170).

[Sinfullyvannila]

Yeah they shouldn't be pointed for their second ability. It's just there to gambit on an opponents mistake in a niche circumstance; get them in combat with 2 units and hope your opponent puts AoD on one and then punish the other.

[Chaos Shepard]

On 3/1/2023 at 5:12 AM, Myrdin said:

I think they missed out on making Bestigors feel "truly elite" by not giving them the Elite rule heh. I like the idea of them interacting when command points are being spent on orders, but this current version seems more like a half thought through beta test of what it could and should actually be for the unit to have a proper place while being fun.

My TLDR interpretation of their abilities would be: Despoilers - "when a unit within 6" of this unit (Bestigors) receives a Order, this unit gains +1 attack up to max of 1 for that turn."

Remove the second ability and instead give them the Elite special rule.

Drop them to 180-200 points and go have some well deserved fun.

In this way you would have a self sufficient unit that is no longer reliant just on the enemy orders but can pop their own if need to be, and become a grindy anvil or almost as choppy unit like Tzaangors.

Sadly Warscrolls dont change in between books (or a miracle redraw of the unit happens), so the best we can hope for now is them dropping to 160, where with the current rules they might at least be considered viable. (since Tzaans are at 170).

You realize that elite is only for units that don't have a unit champion. Any unit with a champion can have that champion issue orders to their unit.

[BluffCityAoS]

 

Bestigors are way to overpriced in my oppinion. If they were 160 I`d say that be a somewhat fair price, considering they are 2A and 1 dmg only and in the point range they sit now everything else we have hits harder or lasts longer, or both.

At this point cost they need to have more synergy with their own passive abilities and better stat line. If not then they need to drop a big chunk in points.

A good player making big plays with Beastmen is not unheard of, but thats the 1/100 veteran who can play literally any other army and still come on top case.

As a bit of anecdotal evidence there are a few lists that have make good use of Bestigors (a 30 man block in Quakefray at 4-1 at WHW, 20 in Gavespawn at 4-1 at Colonial Carnage). While I agree with your general point that any other unit in the book either does more damage or lasts longer I don't think any one unit in the book can do both like Bestigors can. If you need both a hammer and an anvil its hard to find an answer quite as good as bestigors. 

I still think they're overcosted but I've played about 6 games with a block of 30 against some tough lists and they're absolutely a pain to get through or around. 

[Dolomedes]

15 hours ago, BluffCityAoS said:

As a bit of anecdotal evidence there are a few lists that have make good use of Bestigors (a 30 man block in Quakefray at 4-1 at WHW, 20 in Gavespawn at 4-1 at Colonial Carnage). While I agree with your general point that any other unit in the book either does more damage or lasts longer I don't think any one unit in the book can do both like Bestigors can. If you need both a hammer and an anvil its hard to find an answer quite as good as bestigors. 

I still think they're overcosted but I've played about 6 games with a block of 30 against some tough lists and they're absolutely a pain to get through or around. 

Bestigors seem to be great at denying your opponent objectives. They're finding a new role as a tarpit/anvil/hammer, a bit like dragon ogres were last season. It seems that Bestigors with a buff or debuff piece to support have excellent staying power (Morghurite spawn for -1 attack, Cockatrice for hitting on 6+ only, Cygor priest or Ritual for 6+ ward etc). They've also got their 5+ rally. I was on the 'Bestigors are Worstigors' train for a little while, but after seeing their successes I think I'm coming round - I'm taking 20 from now on.

I think it's also worth considering the book battle tactic 'Rampaging Beastherd'. Roughly speaking its 'Take an objective off your opponent with a unit of 10 or more models.' Taking a unit of 20 infantry makes this basically an auto complete, unless you're up against hordes. Bestigors do this really well.

I think Bestigors are an excellent example of the strategic depth of AoS, and BoC. Compared to other units in BoC for survivability or  damage output, they don't look that great. When considering the current season though, where we're generally fighting over 3 objectives in most battle plans, having a brawling brick that can fill multiple roles is a solid choice. Ultimately, AoS is about scoring points rather than winning combats, and Bestigors are pretty good at scoring you points and denying them for your opponent.

My Bestigors are some of the best painted models in my army, and I love getting them on the table, so some of this may just be confirmation bias on my part  

[The Red King]

I know people are finding success so I'm probably wrong but I have a hard time seeing them as an anvil when you can get the same amount of wounds/point with the same save and more dmg output from Gors. 2 units of 20 may not benefit from bless or AoD exactly the same but the spawn, cockatrice, etc. Are all equally as effective and they have the flexibility of moving independently and giving out Always strikes last some times.

 

I guess the larger footprint could be a problem but I see it as an advantage more times than not.

I personally still see them as a little over costed and yes the debuffs help immensely but that just inflates the cost. Still it's nice to know that others are finding success and enjoying them because I love them and really expect them to come down in points some and then they'll only be more attractive.

[Popisdead]

The thing about over costed is the cost of Bestigors can come down. 

it's a better problem to have than a bad warscroll that's really cheap.

And it appears they can work in the current mode.  A lot in the book went up in a perplexing way (Shaggoth looking at you).  So I still feel let it settle out for 6 months.  Granted,.. that's the next GHB but still.  If people are making them work, good for them.  If you are making other things work, good for you.

Onwards and upwards.

[BluffCityAoS]

1 hour ago, The Red King said:

2 units of 20 may not benefit from bless or AoD exactly the same

Editing because I took an argumentative tact unintentionally.

Edited March 8, 2023 by BluffCityAoS

[The Red King]

Yeah I might have taken the wrong tone myself.

 

Most of my initial reactions were wrong so I'm certainly capable of being wrong again.  Heck my original assumption before deep diving was that bestigor were going to completely outshine bullgor lol.

 

Side note. FAQ is up.  Nothing huge. Somehow enlightened on foot were changed to 90 points so I dont know how that typo made it in? 

[BluffCityAoS]

Here's my hopefully more tonally correct post. Don't want to hop on the forums as a ****** after all! 

So I think the big key here is that Bestigors act as a better sponge and thus fill the role of hanvil (hammer and anvil) better than 2 units of Gors. While Gors outperform Bestigors on a 5+ save by 1 wound per 220 point increment - a single unit of Bestigors have several advantages that outweigh that.

Bestigors are easier to shield against Battle Shock and often doesn't require the CP usage to negate because of the higher wound count). They also absorb things like AoA and Wild Rampage more effectively, and they have a 2" reach which means they're often getting a higher amount of the total potential swings in (particularly in Gal Vets). Additionally in AoS it is often advantageous to only want to fight with one unit a turn - Gors can proc strike last but if it fails you can find yourself at a disadvantage in your planned trades in the combat phase. Finally I think there's a strong synergy between Bestigors and Monsters - opponents don't want to issue AoD against Bestigors quite often when frees your Monsters up to stomp and add a few extra MWs to the combat tally instead of spending your rampage on a roar. 

I would also love a reduction in cost for Bestigors but I genuinely believe the current warscroll, even at its current, cost is very viable in the army (at least in the current season with the battle plans laid out like they are). I don't think Bestigors are an auto include at all, one of the strengths of the BoC book is its flexibility for sure. But I do think that they're worth experimenting with - I shied away from them when the book came out because of the general negativity surrounding them and I'm very pleased that I re-thought that decision. 
 

[Myrdin]

4 hours ago, The Red King said:

Side note. FAQ is up.  Nothing huge. Somehow enlightened on foot were changed to 90 points so I dont know how that typo made it in? 

Yeah plenty of people had suspicion that their original price must have been a typo.

Ah look, Jabber can fly once more (lol)... srsly it, one has ot ask whether there is quality control at all in that company.

 

For those who want to take a look, here is the FAQ link:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/VVSN027n3ReY8FSH.pdf

[Dolomedes]

17 hours ago, The Red King said:

Side note. FAQ is up.  Nothing huge. Somehow enlightened on foot were changed to 90 points so I dont know how that typo made it in? 

90 points for enlightened on foot is insanely cost effective. They're 10 points a wound, which is cheaper than Gor at 11 points a wound, and with a 4+ save. Only Ungor, Warhounds and Tzaangor (!?) provide cheaper wounds. They're on par with dual wield Gors for damage output, and beat them against high rend targets, before applying their potential +1 to wound. This is all before considering their ability to shut off commands.

6 enlightened on foot for 180 points is a legit threat, and one of the most efficient units our book has. I'm expecting to see them spammed. 

[The Red King]

3 hours ago, Dolomedes said:

90 points for enlightened on foot is insanely cost effective. They're 10 points a wound, which is cheaper than Gor at 11 points a wound, and with a 4+ save. Only Ungor, Warhounds and Tzaangor (!?) provide cheaper wounds. They're on par with dual wield Gors for damage output, and beat them against high rend targets, before applying their potential +1 to wound. This is all before considering their ability to shut off commands.

6 enlightened on foot for 180 points is a legit threat, and one of the most efficient units our book has. I'm expecting to see them spammed. 

My list accidentally ended up spamming chariots just because they were a convenient cost. If I had foot enlightened I would probably swap one or two chariots for them just to shut off commands if nothing else.

[Myrdin]

So with some time to playtest the thing, how is everyone finding the new book ?

What works and what doesnt ? Share some thoughts and experiences with the new Beasts

[Tizianolol]

hey guys, if i have 2 Cygors and 1 enemy wizard in range of them cast a spell, i deal 2 mortal wounds or just one?  

[Magnus The Blue]

1 minute ago, Tizianolol said:

hey guys, if i have 2 Cygors and 1 enemy wizard in range of them cast a spell, i deal 2 mortal wounds or just one?  

Just the one.  But it soon adds up 🙂

[Chaos Shepard]

Those mortal wound from the Cygor help me kill Morathi in my last game.

[Tizianolol]

Ye they are useful, 2 was a little bit too mutch:)

[Myrdin]

Possible new Gor scuplts after all this time ?

Yes I know this is 40K but look at the models themself. You replace the weapons, and maybe few of the trinkets and you have a proper AoS Gor right there. Pretty much what they did with Tzaangors, could be done here as well.

I mean, its about damn time Beastmen got some new scuplts consider the age of our model lines.

What do you think, possible or not ?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/23/abandon-ship-kin-and-beastmen-flee-the-death-of-a-space-hulk-in-kill-team-gallowfall/

[Dolomedes]

Just now, Myrdin said:

Possible new Gor scuplts after all this time ?

Yes I know this is 40K but look at the models themself. You replace the weapons, and maybe few of the trinkets and you have a proper AoS Gor right there. Pretty much what they did with Tzaangors, could be done here as well.

I mean, its about damn time Beastmen got some new scuplts consider the age of our model lines.

What do you think, possible or not ?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/23/abandon-ship-kin-and-beastmen-flee-the-death-of-a-space-hulk-in-kill-team-gallowfall/

It looks like they were made for AoS then someone forgot to finish them, so they didn't release with our book. Cool looking models, just wish they were a proper AoS release!

[Ganigumo]

The grenades are a bit worrying, since they look like they're sculpted onto the torsos, although maybe they're just a tiny bit that comes off, the rest of it seems like they could work in aos with different arms and heads.

[Tizianolol]

Guys if I have 2 cockatrice in range of an enemy unit and i try to use their ability with 1 cocka, if I fail, can I try to debuff the same unit with the other one?

[The Red King]

21 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys if I have 2 cockatrice in range of an enemy unit and i try to use their ability with 1 cocka, if I fail, can I try to debuff the same unit with the other one?

You can. It's in the FAQ on the website.