beasts of chaos Beasts of Chaos 3.0

[The Red King]

 

6 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Hot dog what ? I dont get this pun.

So what you want to say is that DB with Slitherwrack is insanely good, and so are regular Bullgors ?

But I thought people here said they arent good at all for those points, though at "ideal" they can output high dmg.

I am still waiting for my book to arrive at my LGS so that I can dust my beasties off hence I had no chance to test anything yet.

I know I said I feared they wouldn't  be good because they don't benefit from almost any buffs or synergies but the math proved me very very wrong. Which ironically makes them pretty good allies for other armies again because their warscroll has all its power baked in.

 

What they aren't is durable but that's nothing new.

[Maddpainting]

3 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Hot dog what ? I dont get this pun.

So what you want to say is that DB with Slitherwrack is insanely good, and so are regular Bullgors ?

But I thought people here said they arent good at all for those points, though at "ideal" they can output high dmg.

I am still waiting for my book to arrive at my LGS so that I can dust my beasties off hence I had no chance to test anything yet.

Hot dog is a sfw saying for holy ****** basically. 

Bullgors 6man unit has been my MVP every game so far, dealing an average of 14 MWs with paired weapons and charges, They are doing about 20D consistently without buffs and you can give them some good buffs. 

Doombull with the helm can charge in your opponents turn, so you counter charge and make the unit that charged you fight last, deal MWs to it, and have another unit engaged.  

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:

Doombull with the helm can charge in your opponents turn, so you counter charge and make the unit that charged you fight last, deal MWs to it, and have another unit engaged.  

Now that's strategy!

[Satyrical Sophist]

Trying to make a list for a relatively casual 1500 game, and jeez is it hard to fit stuff in. I'm hampered by a shortage of quite a few things (really need to get painting, gors were terrible when I last played). Tzaangors having no way to become battleline surprised me.  

Looking at.

Bray Shaman with arcane tome and the +casting for turn number trait.

Tzaangor Shaman

Beast lord.

Battle.line ungor and centigor.

2 units of tzaangor.

2 units of tzaangor enlightened on disc.

1 unit of chaos warhounds.

 

Units that I'm not running are.

Gorgon, bullgor, 20 bestigor, gargant, dragon ogor, shaggoth. 

 

It feels like I'm light on basically everything really. I suspect I would feel better with more gors, ungor and raiders available. 

 

 

[Fazhak]

15 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

I like the idea but think the 20 Gor units and to a lesser extent the giant unit of Centigor will struggle without Gallatic Veterans battalion.  You'll rarely get more than a 50% in combat at a time.   If you really want to stick to 1 drop battalion I'd go for 10 Gor, 10 Gor, 10 Tzaangor and group the Dragon Ogors into one unit.  10 model units struggle a bit less with the 1" range, Tzaangor especially as their damaged output is more focuses on a few of the modes (Great Weapons and Mutants, while the shield bearers stay at the back to hold coherency).

Spell selection seems a bit odd (unless this is a place holder), I'm going to always go for Tendrils of Atrophy for at least one wizard.  Our ritual even lets you pull people into range first.  Spell for the second Shaman is more of a toss up, personal preference is Vicious Stranglethorns.

Thanks for this feedback! Regarding Centigors, one of Popisdead's tricks addresses attacking in multiple ranks with Centigors: turn the front rank sideways and the back rank can attack with their Gutpiercer Spear because such have a 2" reach. Granted, the back rank will not get their Clawed Forelimbs attacks, yet those had no base Rend anyway.

I'm likewise not too concerned about maximizing the Gor units, as those are more for screening opposing units, holding objectives, and resourcing Rituals of Ruin, than being hammers themselves.

I'm thinking the one-drop might be useful in this initial exploration of the battletome's dynamics. Maybe such won't be important, yet I'm wanting to go for it now given how early attacks and positioning seem particularly useful with this new battletome.

I like Primal Dominance. It casts on a 5, which is significant; the perhaps more noteworthy buffs cast on a 7, which likely hits only about half the time without bonuses. It has an 18" range, which is a distance that informs how I use my Great Bray-Shaman given their enhanced Rituals of Ruin. I think the spell's effect is significant: countering many of the benefits (and monstrous rampages) of Monsters can make a big difference for how the Gor units (which I team with the Great Bray-Shaman) perform. Lastly, I'm actually wanting to case Mystic Shield and my endless spell with this list, so having a Lore spell with occasional utility isn't the opportunity cost it might be in other lists.

Does the above make sense? What do you (and others) think?

[Magnus The Blue]

8 hours ago, Fazhak said:

Thanks for this feedback! Regarding Centigors, one of Popisdead's tricks addresses attacking in multiple ranks with Centigors: turn the front rank sideways and the back rank can attack with their Gutpiercer Spear because such have a 2" reach. Granted, the back rank will not get their Clawed Forelimbs attacks, yet those had no base Rend anyway.

I'm likewise not too concerned about maximizing the Gor units, as those are more for screening opposing units, holding objectives, and resourcing Rituals of Ruin, than being hammers themselves.

I'm thinking the one-drop might be useful in this initial exploration of the battletome's dynamics. Maybe such won't be important, yet I'm wanting to go for it now given how early attacks and positioning seem particularly useful with this new battletome.

I like Primal Dominance. It casts on a 5, which is significant; the perhaps more noteworthy buffs cast on a 7, which likely hits only about half the time without bonuses. It has an 18" range, which is a distance that informs how I use my Great Bray-Shaman given their enhanced Rituals of Ruin. I think the spell's effect is significant: countering many of the benefits (and monstrous rampages) of Monsters can make a big difference for how the Gor units (which I team with the Great Bray-Shaman) perform. Lastly, I'm actually wanting to case Mystic Shield and my endless spell with this list, so having a Lore spell with occasional utility isn't the opportunity cost it might be in other lists.

Does the above make sense? What do you (and others) think?

Yeah I think that Drifting centigors is fine for 5-10 but you start losing a lot of attacks if you go to 15.  
Similarly with Gors, 10 without G Vets is fine: do good work screening and hands out the charge debuff for 110, happy days.  20 feels like a lot of points to put into a screening unit that'll never get anywhere near getting its full attacks in.

Just feeling like your list is making a lot of compromises to get to 1 drop when you consider the units you are using.  Thing like Bullgors and Tzaangor are better suited to this sort of list.

I definitely see your point with Primal dominance, but 5+ isn't that big a deal as those cast on 5 or 6 are likely to be dispelled anyway.  I feel like Tendrills of Atrophy and to a lesser extent Vicious strangle thorns have such game changing effects that they are worth it for not happening as often.  If everyone in your area is playing Sons or Beastclaw, obviously it's a different decision.

[Hannibal]

15 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Doombull with the helm can charge in your opponents turn, so you counter charge and make the unit that charged you fight last, deal MWs to it, and have another unit engaged.  

How do you apply the strike last effect?

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, Hannibal said:

How do you apply the strike last effect?

The slitherwrack helm says "after the bearer makes a charge move, pick 1 enemy unit within 1" of them and roll a dice. On a 2+, the strike-last effect applies to that unit until the end of the turn." 

 

Since it doesn't require anything but making a charge move to activate you can use the doombulls command ability to charge in the opponent's combat phase and give them strikes last when they perhaps aren't expecting it.

[Fazhak]

14 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Yeah I think that Drifting centigors is fine for 5-10 but you start losing a lot of attacks if you go to 15.  
Similarly with Gors, 10 without G Vets is fine: do good work screening and hands out the charge debuff for 110, happy days.  20 feels like a lot of points to put into a screening unit that'll never get anywhere near getting its full attacks in.

Just feeling like your list is making a lot of compromises to get to 1 drop when you consider the units you are using.  Thing like Bullgors and Tzaangor are better suited to this sort of list.

I definitely see your point with Primal dominance, but 5+ isn't that big a deal as those cast on 5 or 6 are likely to be dispelled anyway.  I feel like Tendrills of Atrophy and to a lesser extent Vicious strangle thorns have such game changing effects that they are worth it for not happening as often.  If everyone in your area is playing Sons or Beastclaw, obviously it's a different decision.

I appreciate this. It sounds like we agree about the list itself and are instead honing in on the organization of it all.

I want to test whether going first makes a difference with this new battletome, yet given your points I am open to exploring an alternative organization.

Turns out I can swap out the Doombull for a Jabberslythe and thereby keep the list largely intact. This swap doesn't cost me strategically, as the Doombull was positioned to be (akin to a Jabberslythe) a support Hero hunter anyway. In this alternative organization, I simply move the Artefact and Aspect of the Beast to my general.

Here's how I would arrange the units into three different core battalions:

 

Vanguard

Great Bray-Shaman (general) (95)

#1 3 Dragon Ogors (225)

#2 3 Dragon Ogors (225)

 

Linebreaker

Great Bray-Shaman (95)

Cygor (210)

Jabberslythe (160)

 

Galletian Veterans

15 Centigor (510)

#1 20 Gor w/ Paired Hacking Blades (220)

#2 20 Gor w/ Paired Hacking Blades (220)

 

Endless Spells

Ravening Direflock (40)

 

Do you truly think the above is a better organization than the Battle Regiment?

[Skreech Verminking]

Considering the new price for bestigors, is anybody going to use them?

they seem a bit overpriced but certainly not less good woth their new rules

[Ganigumo]

I think bestigor are pretty awful now.
They barely benchmark above 10 paired weapon Gor fighting (I know coherency is an issue for gor, but they're half the cost so if you reinforced it the Gor would outdamage them), and they don't even average 10 damage against any kind of save, which means they struggle to even kill screens without buffs, so even if Gor get nerfed their damage isn't any good. Their warscroll ability for +1 attack against all out defense sounds good, but its actually a "Gotcha!" rule, because using all out defense makes them do way more damage overall, therefore using all out defense against bestigor is just a mistake.
Its not like they're anvils either, 20W on a 4+ is quite a bit of meat to chew through, but won't be hard for most hammers, and again, 20 shield gor have the same defensive profile and probably similar damage alongside the fights last utility and better support through things like allherd.

Even ignoring Gor the other hammers do so much more, Bullgor pack the mortals, Slaangor are cheap tech pieces with fights last, enlightened on Disk are super mobile, and Tzaangor, despite lack of rend, outdamage bestigor even against 2+ saves, and do nearly double against higher saves with the same number of wounds at a cheaper cost. Plus both tzaangor and Slaangor have the brayherd keyword, so they get all the same buffs.

Its just another case of GW overvaluing raw wounds. Bestigor didn't get much of an increase in their output (arguably it went down since +1 attack on the charge was easy to trigger) but got a huge point increase because they're 2W now. Its pretty much the same thing as Gutrippaz and Savage Orruks (and tzaangor for most of aos2), where they have the same offensive profile as a 1W model, but cost nearly double because of the second wound.

Although maybe GW was just playing some points roulette with this book, as some of the points are just insane. Bray shaman at 95 and  Tzaangor shaman at 115 seem insanely low, meanwhile Bestigor at 220, Shaggoth at 275, and foot enlightened at 165 are ludicrous. Like seriously, foot enlightened are 90 points in Tzeentch and nobody takes them, how on earth did they get a nearly 80% increase.

[The Red King]

3 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Considering the new price for bestigors, is anybody going to use them?

they seem a bit overpriced but certainly not less good woth their new rules

I want to use them so badly but as others have said 20 gor outdamage them while also having the utility of being gor and benefiting from all herd if I end up not going gavespawn but I really love the IDEA of the morghurite spawn as a defensive debuff alongside my cockatrice and enemy charge phase charging slitherwrack doombull. Layers of defense.

 

In practice it may turn out that massive amounts of free gors is just a better way to go.

 

I got sidetracked. Bestigor are overpriced and don't have anything going for them that cant be done better by another unit in the same book sadly.

[Darkrich]

With the doombull and the slitherwrack helm. I thought you could only have one effect trigger for a die roll. Like choosing to do mortals on a 6 to hit or exploding 6's. Since he has impact mortals, are you just forgoing those for the strikes last? Striking last is probably more effective but want to clarify.

[Beliman]

7 hours ago, Darkrich said:

With the doombull and the slitherwrack helm. I thought you could only have one effect trigger for a die roll. Like choosing to do mortals on a 6 to hit or exploding 6's. Since he has impact mortals, are you just forgoing those for the strikes last? Striking last is probably more effective but want to clarify.

If two abilities triggers with a dice roll, yes, you need to chose what you are going to do:
 

Quote

1.6.4 TRIGGERED EFFECTS

The effects of some abilities are applied when a dice roll triggers them. For example, the effect of an ability might be triggered if the unmodified hit roll for an attack is 6. A triggered effect is applied immediately after the roll that triggered it. If two or more effects are triggered by the same roll, only one of those effects can be applied. The player who made the roll must pick which effect is applied.

But in this case, both abilities are triggered at the same time in a turn (after charging):

Quote

1.6.2 SIMULTANEOUS EFFECTS

If the effects of two or more abilities would be applied at the same time in a turn, the player whose turn is taking place applies the effects of their abilities first, one at a time, in the order they desire. Their opponent then does the same.
If the effects of two or more abilities would be applied at the same time other than during a turn, the players roll off and the winner applies the effects of their abilities first, one at a time, in the order they desire. Their opponent then does the same.

 

[Myrdin]

On 2/6/2023 at 7:26 PM, The Red King said:

 

I know I said I feared they wouldn't  be good because they don't benefit from almost any buffs or synergies but the math proved me very very wrong. Which ironically makes them pretty good allies for other armies again because their warscroll has all its power baked in.

 

What they aren't is durable but that's nothing new.

How about the big 4 armed moomoo ? Is Gorgon a decent pick now or is it a "wait for it to get cheaper" ?

The increase in attacks is nice but the reduction to 4+ To Hit sucks a lot, and someone pointed out you eat people before attacks so it doesnt work as well for coherency breaking as one would have thought.

Got two of these, both with converted flesh hooks into flesh blades (I mean the hooks are just derpy tiny things, not menacing at all. But take a pair of extra Scything claws from your local Tyranid player and bam, much cooler, much more menacing moo moo is born) and have been itching to see a day when my opponent is like "oh cr*p" when one of them just strolls in on the table.

[The Red King]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

How about the big 4 armed moomoo ? Is Gorgon a decent pick now or is it a "wait for it to get cheaper" ?

The increase in attacks is nice but the reduction to 4+ To Hit sucks a lot, and someone pointed out you eat people before attacks so it doesnt work as well for coherency breaking as one would have thought.

Got two of these, both with converted flesh hooks into flesh blades (I mean the hooks are just derpy tiny things, not menacing at all. But take a pair of extra Scything claws from your local Tyranid player and bam, much cooler, much more menacing moo moo is born) and have been itching to see a day when my opponent is like "oh cr*p" when one of them just strolls in on the table.

There's a lot of really great math on page 2 that might be a lot better than my opinion but on the topic of the eating I think it's best not to think "oh darn this doesn't do the trick i want" and instead think of it more like a likely 3 kills per activation, which boosts their kind of pitiful average damage. 

They at least take some buffs well. Wild rampage (which is bad on a lot of our units because they already have an ability that triggers on 6's), titanic fury, doombulls call to slaughter, the very unlikely beastlords hatred of heroes.

 

Gorgon probably need more support than is reasonable but I wouldn't expect them to not do anything for you and at least they can heal themselves so there's that? I havent personally made any lists using the 2 I have but I havent even gotten to play a game yet because of life so I would take my opinions with some salt.

[Ganigumo]

The anti-pile in spell is good with Ghorgons, you might not be able to split a unit since it happens before attacks, and you might end up killing the other half of the unit anyways, but it lets you hit the side of a unit and not take much damage in retaliation.

[Dolomedes]

Here's some of my findings so far:

Centigors are a different unit when you take them in a 10 and run them as GV (they aren't mounted, they are the mount). You can safely get all 10 to do their attacks. 10 are doing roughly 10 damage against a 4+ save (herdstone buff included, so it's 5+ really). 10 shots before will do just over 3 damage. Put +1 to hit on them, and with shooting you're almost at the 15 damage threshold to be a hammer. Extra attacks from their ability and a +1 to hit gets them to almost 20 damage, which is comfortably hammer territory. With their decent survivability and extreme movement, they make for a solid choice to just go and smack objectives in the early game. 5 won't really do anything, but 10 are a decent threat. My plan is to use them on turn 1 to cap objectives and bait my opponent into overextending, setting up excellent ambushes. If they don't deal with them, it'll be another hammer for them to contend with when all the bulls show up. If they do get tagged in turn one, just retreat and charge to where they need to be. If you're lucky, you might be able to taunt something into position so they can get a good trade.

Bullgor MWs are brilliant. 6 Bulls are auto include. I'm running a 6 and a 3. The 3 do enough damage to be a potent counter punch, and if you're taking the Doombull (which of course you are) then having 3 sat around to chuck into combat will likely win you some engagements.

I think Cygors are finally worth it - hooray! Their ability to ****** someone's magic phase up is so useful, and they can get a bit of damage through too. Their prayer ability can dish out a surprising amount of damage, and if they're batteline, you can use one to be a bodyguard for your bray shaman. Taking Dirgehorn as a cheap 30 point spell for it to snack on and heal is a decent play. They aren't an immediate threat like the Bulls are, but it's still something you can't ignore. They aren't quite a hammer, but the utility they bring and the synergy with a bray shaman can justify their inclusion.

Chariots are crazy cheap for what they can do. They're solid screens and cheap MW output that can be reliably delivered. If they aren't screening, they make for a good counter punch. Again - it's something your opponent can't really ignore. Combo charging them is easy, and especially potent if you're running bulls. Charging a chariot and a unit of Bulls into something will do a hefty amount of damage. If it kills your target, then you can tap the Doombull to get the Bulls to charge again. 

 

 

[Skarband]

Hi i whant to make khorne themet army(Skullfray) some list ideas? 

[The Red King]

3 hours ago, Skarband said:

Hi i whant to make khorne themet army(Skullfray) some list ideas? 

Good luck T_T

Realistically there is no great way to do Khorne in a beasts army. We kind of need our wizards and the skullfray general trait is best when applied to tzaangor variants.

 

My opinion as an avid skullfray player is to wait and just coalition some bullgor and doombull into Blades of Khorne since most of their power is on the warscroll anyway. Maybe proxy a few other units. 

Sadly GW decided not to support the god marked frays this time around. Better luck in 4 years or so.

[Dolomedes]

On 2/12/2023 at 3:17 PM, Skarband said:

Hi i whant to make khorne themet army(Skullfray) some list ideas? 

Alpha striking 9 Bulls with Bestial Cunning seems pretty Khornate to me. You could go Quakefray and take Cygor priests in place of wizards. Khorne Ghorgons are very much a thing in the lore already too.

[The Red King]

13 hours ago, Dolomedes said:

Alpha striking 9 Bulls with Bestial Cunning seems pretty Khornate to me. You could go Quakefray and take Cygor priests in place of wizards. Khorne Ghorgons are very much a thing in the lore already too.

Ironically alpha striking 9 bulls with bestial cunning is what my list looks like before you said this hah. So we agree.

I'm just miffed the best way to run skullfray is not to take the only "skullfray" thing in the book (the command trait).

 

That said 20-30 dual weapon gor with the skullfray buff, and exlosing 6s (wild rampage), and +1 damage (tendrils of atrophy) and the beastlords +1 hit/wound, do put out some of the silliest damage numbers I've ever seen ( 112 versus a 4+ save) even if you'd never get everything lined up perfectly like that in a real game. 

That's also magic reliant so not very khornate. But the way I see it if Khorne doesnt care enough to give us marks then you can slip a little "blood magic" by him. The Great Brass Bull is less clear on magic than Khorne is after all.

[Sinfullyvannila]

Khorne cares not from where the blood flows so it would make sense he doesn't care if his Greatfray sucks. It foes hurt to lose the option but i don't think 2E being essentially a glorified soup sourcebook helped too much with the faction identity. Hopefully we get the other two gors and a leader piece for them and Slaangors.

Also, IDK if its an oversight but Tzaangors cant be battleline anymore.

[Magnus The Blue]

 Gave Quakefray a bash last night Vs Nighthaunt (Quicksilver host).

My list:

- Army Faction: Beasts of Chaos
     - Subfaction: Quakefray
     - Grand Strategy: Take What’s Theirs
     - Triumph: Bloodthirsty
LEADERS
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangor Shaman (115)*
     - Spells: Tendrils of Atrophy
Doombull (160)**
     - General
     - Command Traits: Bestial Cunning
     - Artefacts of Power: Slitherwrack Helm
     - Aspects of the Champion:  Fuelled by Ghurish Rage
Great Bray-Shaman (95)**
     - Spells: Vicious Stranglethorns
BATTLELINE
Cygor (210)*
Cygor (210)*
Ghorgon (240)**
BEHEMOTH
Chimera (185)*
OTHER
Cockatrice (105)*
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangors (170)*
     - Icon Bearer
     - Brayhorn Blower
     - 2 x Tzaangor Mutant
     - 4 x Savage Greatblade
Cockatrice (105)**
Ungor Raiders (115)**
Ungor Raiders (115)**
Beasts of Chaos Tzaangors (170)**
     - Brayhorn Blower
     - Icon Bearer
     - 2 x Tzaangor Mutant
     - 4 x Savage Greatblade
CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment
TOTAL POINTS: 1995/2000
 

His list was standard Nighthaunt fare, 2*20 Harrison with all the buff pieces, Grimhailer and Purple Sun.

Mission was position of power, which really suits Beasts.

 

Deployment:

I started with a Cygor, a Cockatrice, one unit of Tzaangor and the Tazangor Shaman protecting my home objective and making sure all his casters are in Cygor range.

Turn 1:

Gave him first turn and he wasn't able to do much other than waddle the castle forwards, Claim just his home objective and Desacrate the lands battle tactic on a central bit of terrain. 

My turn I went all in, focusing on the two Harradon units.  Between rituals and some good charge roles I engaged one unit with 2 Cockatrice, 10 Tzaangor and the Chimeria. The other got all the raider shooting, 10 Tzaangor, a Ghorgon (Beastial cunning), Doombull and a Cygor.

Cockarices petrified on unit while the other was strikes last thanks to the Doombull and the game ended their as a a competitive event. He manage to kill a Cockarice with support hero's and some petrified Harrison's but lost 30 Harrison's in return. one unit was wiped out and the other down to 10 and complete surrounded without room to retreat  I scored 6vps thanks to the Bray Shaman Golding a side objective.

Turn 2.

He won priority and had to take it to avoid being wiped out.   In came all the charges to debuff my units but the remaining Cockarice petrified the Harridon's (now back up to 13 models) so other than a unit of 10 chainrasps spiking and nearly killing a Cygor, the damage was minimal.

My turn, the flank that wiped out the Harridon's came smashed into his support hero's and the other flank finished off the last of the Harridons.  He wasn't wiped out completely but I was 12-5 VPs up, so we shook hands.

Takeaways:

Cockarices are that good.  Absolutely deviating agains armies that rely on a small number of buffed melee units to do their damage. They even do good damage on the charge. Can't see them staying un-errataed, especially when other armies start allying them in.

Cygor, Ghorgons and Chimeras are all solid. Their points costs make them feel fragile but each has it's place in the right list.  Can't wait to use a Cygor against Lumineth, Tzeentch or Naggash 😄

Tzaangor and Ungor Raiders are brilliant.  Both such good value.

 

 

 

[Lord Krungharr]

What does the Cockatrice do now?  I read somewhere they do less MW.  I thought they'd just go by the wayside since they only have a Finecast model...