Sinfullyvannila Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ganigumo said: Spiders gained some super good utility but unless I'm mistaken the spider venom still only applies to the bites? Going from d3 to 3 damage on the arachnaroks isn't nearly enough to fix the damage issues with spiderfang. Especially with their ability to buff the mortals actually getting weaker. They're all flash and no substance outside the webspinner on arachnarok. The scuttleboss might slap now but he is pretty fragile. I could see bringing skitterstrands, webspinners or maybe even a flinger into a mixed list though. Snarlfangs are cool but the lack of rend hurts them. I think the strongest list will probably just be something abusing the hell out of 4+ rally, clammy hand and King's Gitz. You can fit a ton of units into that build and make it work too. I have a lot of experience playing against spiderfang in 2E, my buddy played them almost exclusively. Static mortals combined with multiple sources of LotBM is WAAAAAAAY stronger than double mortals on D3. Also don't forget their base damage also went to straight 3. The biggest problems with them was that you absolutely relied on the moon being on the right place and on that spell going off. Combined with the extra mortal on the Scuttleboss the spell it works out to more than double. You don't lose out on much with the Spider Riders, its still double when not under the light of the moon and 50% more when it is. The actual biggest problem with the Araknaroks is that they will be actually tough to get the the LotBM on the turns when its not in the middle. But for the Scuttleboss and Spider Riders, it should be really easy to benefit from it for the whole game if you take Skragrott. Edited January 29, 2023 by Sinfullyvannila 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Causalis Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 Any good Combos yet? From what I've seen: Mangler Boss with +1 hit & wound and another pip of Rend on the Mangler for MAXIMUM CARNAGE. 6 Fellwater Trolls in their subfaction + Trogg Boss CA and LotBM = 3+ Save, -1 to being hit, 5 attacks 2+/3+/-1/2, and if they vomit on their target the opponent can't stack their saves and has -1 to save. They also heal every hero phase and after combat. We can buff them even more with Snufflers for a 5+ ward (and another attack of you roll well) and Spore Fanatics for another attack. Sounds really nasty to me. Good damage and VERY resilient. There are also a ton of ways to buff MWs for Spiderfang. Loonkings Ladz + Clammy Hand GT and you can bring back 2 destroyed units each turn on a rerollable 4+. My other thoughts: We've lost ALL Battleshock immunity which will huuuuurt. Squig Herd looks good on offense but with Bravery 4 they'll evaporate easily so they now are at best a suicide unit and at worst a screen. Arachnarok seems underwhelming. Only the bite deals any damage but to be honest for the size of that monster, our big gribly should rival a Mangler Squig. Surprised that our Aleguzzler Giant stuck around. He now seems like a good, cheap monster that can threaten lightly defended objectives. Bounderz with Rend -2 and 2D on the charge are a real hammer now. They also take Buffs really well. My beloved Gobbapalooza seems actually quite decent! Two cast/unbinds + an option of buffs are worth their points. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icetea Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 Does anyone have any link to the warscrolls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 4 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said: I have a lot of experience playing against spiderfang in 2E, my buddy played them almost exclusively. Static mortals combined with multiple sources of LotBM is WAAAAAAAY stronger than double mortals on D3. Also don't forget their base damage also went to straight 3. The biggest problems with them was that you absolutely relied on the moon being on the right place and on that spell going off. Combined with the extra mortal on the Scuttleboss the spell it works out to more than double. You don't lose out on much with the Spider Riders, its still double when not under the light of the moon and 50% more when it is. The actual biggest problem with the Araknaroks is that they will be actually tough to get the the LotBM on the turns when its not in the middle. But for the Scuttleboss and Spider Riders, it should be really easy to benefit from it for the whole game if you take Skragrott. The buffs went from: Mortals on 5+ from LotBM, or the banner, or the grimscuttle command trait Double mortals: from arachnarok spell These buffs stacked multiplicitively. One would double your mortal output, both would quadruple it. To: Mortals on 5+ from LotBM, malevolent moon and skragrott +1 mortal on a 6 from arachnarok and banner These buffs stack additively. Spider riders can get up to triple their mortal output with both, but its far worse for arachnaroks since +1 is only a 33% increase, and the only thing spiders got to compensate was flat 3 damage instead of d3. Going from d3 to 3 is a +1 increase on the average, but it is more consistent. I've got the math for skitterstrands, they'll still struggle to even kill screens without buffs, and with only 4 bite attacks your damage will be super swingy. You used to be able to pump up spider riders pretty well if the stars aligned but the 3e coherency rules make it tough to apply the damage. Spider riders continue to be fast gutrippaz with worse reach and base size. The scroll has been a running joke for a while now and remained unchanged. They reduced the power of the buff stacking but forgot the part where you needed to make the base warscroll good. Its also arguable that the buffs are harder to apply now, since our casting is worse outside of badsnatchers. Like spiderfang has some legitimately powerful tools, but you need damage to make them worthwhile. Its just like when grimscuttle first released, amazing rules and battalions that granted great utility but it never took off because the units just didn't do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 Also did the math on 5 bounderz with no buffs for comparison. stomp can kind of make up for the damage difference, which makes their damage pretty similar, their bulk and speed are similar, but boingrots have much smaller bases, way more support in terms of buffs and allegiance abilities and are 60 points cheaper, plus they can be reinforced. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmason Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 Has anyone heard if the trogg hag is still an option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 (edited) Soooo...if with sporesplattaz, gobbapalozza, troggboss and sneaky snufflers the rockgut weapon profile would be 5 attacks - 2+/3+/-3/3 30 attacks from a unit of 6, sign me up. EDIT: Does anyone know if the limited edition is available somewhere other than the webstore? Edited January 29, 2023 by Malakree 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinfullyvannila Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 4 hours ago, Ganigumo said: The buffs went from: Mortals on 5+ from LotBM, or the banner, or the grimscuttle command trait Double mortals: from arachnarok spell These buffs stacked multiplicitively. One would double your mortal output, both would quadruple it. To: Mortals on 5+ from LotBM, malevolent moon and skragrott +1 mortal on a 6 from arachnarok and banner These buffs stack additively. Spider riders can get up to triple their mortal output with both, but its far worse for arachnaroks since +1 is only a 33% increase, and the only thing spiders got to compensate was flat 3 damage instead of d3. Going from d3 to 3 is a +1 increase on the average, but it is more consistent. I've got the math for skitterstrands, they'll still struggle to even kill screens without buffs, and with only 4 bite attacks your damage will be super swingy. You used to be able to pump up spider riders pretty well if the stars aligned but the 3e coherency rules make it tough to apply the damage. Spider riders continue to be fast gutrippaz with worse reach and base size. The scroll has been a running joke for a while now and remained unchanged. They reduced the power of the buff stacking but forgot the part where you needed to make the base warscroll good. Its also arguable that the buffs are harder to apply now, since our casting is worse outside of badsnatchers. Like spiderfang has some legitimately powerful tools, but you need damage to make them worthwhile. Its just like when grimscuttle first released, amazing rules and battalions that granted great utility but it never took off because the units just didn't do anything. I guess I forgot to explicitly make my point. Its just that buffing the big spiders with it is and always has been a trap. They chances for it to proc were too blow on 4 attacks. Even if it goes off, its the spell you use your opponent would always use their automatic unbind or stronger unbinds on; ironically, Skragrotts warscroll spells is a stealth buff on it because that's now a target for that. Scuttleboss or Spider Riders are what you use that spell on. Spider Riders also can benefit from Battle Bonds so damage shouldn't be an issue with them if you have a spiderfang general. We can't hang our hat on it, but every pillar in the community is pushing for that to be added in to 4E at the very least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 30 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said: I guess I forgot to explicitly make my point. Its just that buffing the big spiders with it is and always has been a trap. They chances for it to proc were too blow on 4 attacks. Even if it goes off, its the spell you use your opponent would always use their automatic unbind or stronger unbinds on; ironically, Skragrotts warscroll spells is a stealth buff on it because that's now a target for that. Scuttleboss or Spider Riders are what you use that spell on. Spider Riders also can benefit from Battle Bonds so damage shouldn't be an issue with them if you have a spiderfang general. We can't hang our hat on it, but every pillar in the community is pushing for that to be added in to 4E at the very least. Only stuff without mounts benefits from bonds of battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinfullyvannila Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ganigumo said: Only stuff without mounts benefits from bonds of battle. Oh yeah, forgot about that. IDK man, blocks of Mortal Wounds spam with several layers of reanimation mechanics can be really toxic. Look at how everyone is eating up Splintered Fang. Aren't spider riders like 75% as efficient as they are(half the attacks but twice the proc rate, don't have the points handy) just on the warscroll with the LotBM, with much better movement? Its also in an army where you don't get one drop most of the time so you don't have to concern yourself with running bricks. EDIT: NM, for some reason I thought they pushed Splintered Fang to 150 points for some reason. You still have to lean into exclusive subfactions or Archaon to get the most out of them though. Edited January 29, 2023 by Sinfullyvannila Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelfric Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 Given that the Dankhold Troggoth now has 4 attacks with damage 3+D3 wounding on 2s and the the Trogboss 4 attacks damage D6 wounding on 3s, I'm beginning to think that they are going to be more reliable than the Boss. In units of 2, they can be buffed by Snufflers or Gobbapalloza or CAs more efficiently and even have a (albeit 1 in 6) chance of rallying. Yes, the Boss has 2 more wounds and better regeneration, but its damage is still so swingy and we've lost the reroll trait to boot. With Galatian Heroes, I can have cheap heroes with every Trogg unit fairly easily. I'd appreciate thoughts, since the book hasn't even been released yet and I may be jumping the gun. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakree Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 54 minutes ago, Aelfric said: Given that the Dankhold Troggoth now has 4 attacks with damage 3+D3 wounding on 2s and the the Trogboss 4 attacks damage D6 wounding on 3s, I'm beginning to think that they are going to be more reliable than the Boss. In units of 2, they can be buffed by Snufflers or Gobbapalloza or CAs more efficiently and even have a (albeit 1 in 6) chance of rallying. Yes, the Boss has 2 more wounds and better regeneration, but its damage is still so swingy and we've lost the reroll trait to boot. With Galatian Heroes, I can have cheap heroes with every Trogg unit fairly easily. I'd appreciate thoughts, since the book hasn't even been released yet and I may be jumping the gun. Thanks. I feel like the troggoths got a massive boost especially since if you take one of each your troggboss gets the artefact for free. Ironically I'd say its more important the troggboss survives than deals damage because the +1 hit/attack is so good on troggs because they have high impact low volume attacks. Not to mention that loonskin is worth a minimum of 80 points depending on which endless spell you pick. So your troggboss general is actually only ~120 points. Lastly the troggboss heroic action has so nice potential for ****** with people if used properly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 2 hours ago, Aelfric said: Given that the Dankhold Troggoth now has 4 attacks with damage 3+D3 wounding on 2s and the the Trogboss 4 attacks damage D6 wounding on 3s, I'm beginning to think that they are going to be more reliable than the Boss. In units of 2, they can be buffed by Snufflers or Gobbapalloza or CAs more efficiently and even have a (albeit 1 in 6) chance of rallying. Yes, the Boss has 2 more wounds and better regeneration, but its damage is still so swingy and we've lost the reroll trait to boot. With Galatian Heroes, I can have cheap heroes with every Trogg unit fairly easily. I'd appreciate thoughts, since the book hasn't even been released yet and I may be jumping the gun. Thanks. I feel like you'll get more mileage by doing all the same buffs on a big unit of rockguts, although the snufflers won't really do much there. Fellwaters with a 5+ ward could be tough to shift though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted January 29, 2023 Share Posted January 29, 2023 4 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said: Oh yeah, forgot about that. IDK man, blocks of Mortal Wounds spam with several layers of reanimation mechanics can be really toxic. Look at how everyone is eating up Splintered Fang. Aren't spider riders like 75% as efficient as they are(half the attacks but twice the proc rate, don't have the points handy) just on the warscroll with the LotBM, with much better movement? Its also in an army where you don't get one drop most of the time so you don't have to concern yourself with running bricks. EDIT: NM, for some reason I thought they pushed Splintered Fang to 150 points for some reason. You still have to lean into exclusive subfactions or Archaon to get the most out of them though. Yeah Splintered fang are nuts for a bunch of reasons. 32 attacks translates to just over 5 mortals unbuffed, spider riders have 10 attacks, which is like 1.67, 3.33 with one buff, or 5 mortals with both (~1 mortal per spider in combat, the same as gutrippaz who have reach, more bodies and are still awful). SF are also criminally pointed, & are on 4s and 2s for some reason, so they have decent output against low armor units too. Even pointed correctly (somewhere around 160?) They're still way better, since they can be reinforced and have a bunch of 25mm bases. The real kicker is most of the SF buffs are reliable and relatively free, mark of khorne for +1 attack & ravagers for resurrection, archaon is good with them, but not a necessity unlike the buffs spider riders need. Its a real shame too, maybe a scuttleboss can be built to be a proper hammer though. If you take the mortal doubling CT and buff him you'll only need 2-3 triggers to cripple a lot of high save units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelfric Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Malakree said: I feel like the troggoths got a massive boost especially since if you take one of each your troggboss gets the artefact for free. Ironically I'd say its more important the troggboss survives than deals damage because the +1 hit/attack is so good on troggs because they have high impact low volume attacks. Not to mention that loonskin is worth a minimum of 80 points depending on which endless spell you pick. So your troggboss general is actually only ~120 points. Lastly the troggboss heroic action has so nice potential for ****** with people if used properly. I totally agree about the General Trogboss. Make him as defensive as possible and take a free Mork's Mushroom ( I'll also take the Scuttletide and a Webspinner to cast it ). I'm leaning towards the Gryph Feather Charm as I've been bitten by the Glowy Howzit once too often. It's whether to take more Trogbosses or Troggoths that I am considering. I have been using 2 Trogbosses before and have just painted up a 3rd hoping the Dankhold Troggoths would be worth taking over the Boss. I feel like they are on first impression, but not completely sold at the moment. I'll try them out in a game or two and see how they go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelfric Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 40 minutes ago, Ganigumo said: I feel like you'll get more mileage by doing all the same buffs on a big unit of rockguts, although the snufflers won't really do much there. Fellwaters with a 5+ ward could be tough to shift though. I have 12 Rockguts and 9 Fellwaters painted and all but 3 Fellwaters in the list at the moment. I have 3 Dankholds painted and would like to put them on the table - 1 as the General, but wondering whether the other two should be Bosses or Troggoths, or 1 of each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 I ran the math and the dankhold does outdamage rockguts now, the gap shrinks with the troggboss command but still favors the dankhold (roughly 2-2.5 more damage). Note: 1 dankhold vs 3 rockguts They certainly aren't trash like they used to be, I just wonder if they justify the extra points as rockguts hit plenty hard. Feels like they could be the same points as the other two. 5+ ward and -1 to hit are generally better defensively than a spell shrug and they all have the same save now. Plus you can't bring dankholds back through the shrine. They might get extra mileage in gloggs megamob though, where the extra wounds mean less will die. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injuryprone Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 At 1000 points, what should I spend my last 160 on? I have a fungoid and madcap built but am wondering if something else would be better, like a marshcrawla, mollog, or skagrott. Trogboss 6 Rockguts 6 Fellwater 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelfric Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 50 minutes ago, Ganigumo said: I ran the math and the dankhold does outdamage rockguts now, the gap shrinks with the troggboss command but still favors the dankhold (roughly 2-2.5 more damage). Note: 1 dankhold vs 3 rockguts They certainly aren't trash like they used to be, I just wonder if they justify the extra points as rockguts hit plenty hard. Feels like they could be the same points as the other two. 5+ ward and -1 to hit are generally better defensively than a spell shrug and they all have the same save now. Plus you can't bring dankholds back through the shrine. They might get extra mileage in gloggs megamob though, where the extra wounds mean less will die. Well, I wasn't really expecting that! I'm now wondering if they would make good distraction pieces as 2 singles rather than a unit of 2. They can't be wittled down due to the healing, so will need concentration of fire and if they are ignored are still strong enough to do some damage. The added bonus of the new battalion giving an extra artifact is also nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelfric Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 49 minutes ago, Injuryprone said: At 1000 points, what should I spend my last 160 on? I have a fungoid and madcap built but am wondering if something else would be better, like a marshcrawla, mollog, or skagrott. Trogboss 6 Rockguts 6 Fellwater Skraggrot now is really good and worth trying. An alternative would be to split the Fellwaters into 2 units of 3, which would give you more board control. You could have a Fungoid and a Webspinner on foot ( using the Madcap model ) and asign 1 to each unit. If you take the Scuttletide endless spell via your General, the Webspinner can cast it with a +1. Both spell lists have nice spells in them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gitzdee Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Injuryprone said: At 1000 points, what should I spend my last 160 on? I have a fungoid and madcap built but am wondering if something else would be better, like a marshcrawla, mollog, or skagrott. Trogboss 6 Rockguts 6 Fellwater Dont know all the 3.0 point costs yet but Skragrott seems really solid in any list (providing the moon buff in a bubble). Getting a Dankhold also seems good now. Edited January 30, 2023 by Gitzdee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gitzdee Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 (edited) Could some make a damage chart including the Mirebrute? Really want to know how that one compares to the new Troggoth statlines. Edited January 30, 2023 by Gitzdee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizianolol Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 Guys I have a question about skuttleboss on guanti spider. His once per game ability works even if I dont have spider riders in my army?:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boingrot Bouncer Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 11 hours ago, Aelfric said: I totally agree about the General Trogboss. Make him as defensive as possible and take a free Mork's Mushroom ( I'll also take the Scuttletide and a Webspinner to cast it ). I'm leaning towards the Gryph Feather Charm as I've been bitten by the Glowy Howzit once too often. It's whether to take more Trogbosses or Troggoths that I am considering. I have been using 2 Trogbosses before and have just painted up a 3rd hoping the Dankhold Troggoths would be worth taking over the Boss. I feel like they are on first impression, but not completely sold at the moment. I'll try them out in a game or two and see how they go. You can't sadly give Troggboss gryph feather charm since he is not Galletian Champion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganigumo Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 6 hours ago, Gitzdee said: Could some make a damage chart including the Mirebrute? Really want to know how that one compares to the new Troggoth statlines. this is roughly right, had to do 4+2d3 for the mirebrute attacks though. in kruleboyz the mirebrute would beat the dankhold vs low saves too thanks to VEW. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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