Let's talk: What is "filth"

[chord]

3 minutes ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

 

 

Yeah prosecutors are really quite terrible at most things. I use them as distractions and objective grabbers. People are scared of a unit of 6 for some reason. Never actually put them in combat though lol.

 

Agreed they make decent objective grabbers unless your opponent has ranged, then they just get wiped out so fast.

If they had a 3+ save or an extra wound they would be decent. 

[Ollie Grimwood]

I might have been mistaken but I'm sure I heard Bryan "The Hobbykiller" saying that Prosecutors were amongst the most points effective units in the game , on the weekend's Heelanhammer SAWC show. 

 

[chord]

2 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I might have been mistaken but I'm sure I heard Bryan "The Hobbykiller" saying that Prosecutors were amongst the most points effective units in the game , on the weekend's Heelanhammer SAWC show. 

 

Maybe the 80 point version (3 models for 80 points).  I can't imagine the 100 point one being the most effective unless paired with the proper battalion

[Fellclaw01]

4 hours ago, chord said:

Maybe the 80 point version (3 models for 80 points).  I can't imagine the 100 point one being the most effective unless paired with the proper battalion

 

No they are bad as well in my gaming experience

[Aeonotakist]

I actually have a different opinion on filthy lists, or I'd rather say, one attitude of how things will develop after filth lists spam around.

 

The main problem of filth lists is it gives your opponents no fun. Though most of the time the one who plays filth list has little fun in the gaming either, but at least he enjoys some excitement of victory and overwhelmling others on intelligent and planning (really?)

 

But imagine if all filth list has a hard counter and when playing with the hard counter they also get wiped out without any fun at all?

Like Bonespllitz, I am pretty sure a team of equal points of Fulmulator will do the job. They are 2+ reroll 1 vs shooting attack and is not monster. There melee ability is davastating to orcs.

For the Skryre fire, a group of 60 Hearthguards, a lords of Lodge Battlion with 10 Gryph Hounds surrounding them will pretty sure to do the work. Sakven got now double turns, and they cannot setup near enough to shoot Hearthgueards in 8' cause they will be shot to death before really do anything.

 

A filth list spamming anything also means it's so niche that they cannot deal with certain kinds of enemy completely.  As long as AOS never has a filth enough list to be not counterable, the filth player will finally turn to competitive but dynamic table. Cause when they met their counters, they will exprience the same thing as their opponents once did, that is lose a game without any possibility of fighting back.

[Ollie Grimwood]

Well both Robbin Cruddace and Bryan Hobbykiller went the weekend with 5 wins out of 6.  So must having being doing something different with their units. Maybe one man filth is another's folly  

I just cast my eye over the Facehammer GT results and there wasn't a Bonesplitters army in the top five. 

 

[Aeonotakist]

16 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I might have been mistaken but I'm sure I heard Bryan "The Hobbykiller" saying that Prosecutors were amongst the most points effective units in the game , on the weekend's Heelanhammer SAWC show. 

 

Actually the jevelin version is very powerful cause their ranged ability overpowered most skill shooter in the game like Kunoth Hunters. You should not put any of them in melee combat but just hit and run.

 

Jevelin Prosecutors are a shooting units with 30' effective range (12+18) and their leader has one more attack in shooting phase so a group of 3 will have a profile of 4A/3+/3+/half -1 half 0/2D with 80 points. Just look at what Judicator can do at 80 points...

Also they are so mobile that if I spam 8 units in a 1000 games, my opponents can hardly eliminate more than 2 units of them in each turn. Their core unit will face focus fire from different directions and have difficulty deciding which to charge.

Very few people really know Jevelin Prosecutors cause they are way to expensive and in AOS big box you only have the choice of celestial hammers version. That was quite misleading cause the one with celestial hammer is almost worst unit in Stormcast Eternity. (low profile in shooting and low save/ wound in combat) But I used pther things to indicate Jevelin Prosecutor against really boring opponents using anything he can fidn to indicate Mourngul. They out played most competive lists in my region.

 

They also get hard counters like empire cannon with cheap troops block Procecutos for 1~2 turns, full Fulmulators, or normal Stormcast troop with Gate Guardian Battlion.  Generally I dont think any spamming list in AOS can really stand as unbeatable.

[Nico]

Prosecutors with Javelins are immense at that cost.

Quote

For the Skryre fire, a group of 60 Hearthguards, a lords of Lodge Battlion with 10 Gryph Hounds surrounding them will pretty sure to do the work. Sakven got now double turns, and they cannot setup near enough to shoot Hearthgueards in 8' cause they will be shot to death before really do anything.

The Gryph Hounds don't work (well). They can deploy where they like, then move 6 into the Gryph Hound aoe, then shoot 8.

[Aeonotakist]

 

7 minutes ago, Nico said:

Prosecutors with Javelins are immense at that cost.

The Gryph Hounds don't work (well). They can deploy where they like, then move 6 into the Gryph Hound aoe, then shoot 8.

Actually I didn't see they can move after setup.

 

But even that is the case, I can still setup all gryph hounds 6' away from main army and make a circle. Then Skaven need to merge 16' more away from my hearthguards and even move 6' they are still too far to shot anything useful.

The Lords of Lodge Battlion will allow a garuanteed initialtive next round and Hearthguards then can fight back without too much difficulty.

[Nico]

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The Lords of Lodge Battlion will allow a garuanteed initialtive next round and Hearthguards then can fight back without too much difficulty.

Except that you'll be too far away from them to charge. 

The bigger concern is the number of Gryph Hounds in the circle you're thinking of making. Furthermore, the Skryre can happily let you sit in your bunker for a turn while the Arch Warlock moves forward or grabs objectives. He can potentially zap the Gryph Hounds in round 2.

[Aeonotakist]

30 minutes ago, Nico said:

Except that you'll be too far away from them to charge. 

The bigger concern is the number of Gryph Hounds in the circle you're thinking of making. Furthermore, the Skryre can happily let you sit in your bunker for a turn while the Arch Warlock moves forward or grabs objectives. He can potentially zap the Gryph Hounds in round 2.

The list can be like this

Lord of Lodge battlion: 100+80+100+80+100 = 460

11 Gryph Hounds stands in a circle of 18' diameter (centre circle with diameter 7' and about 6' distance between hounds and Hearthguards) = 440

A Runesmiter and 5 Hearthguards to tunnel down and behead the Arc-warlock in round 1 = 200

45 Hearthguards = 900

 

The Arc warlock will have a big problem, unless yuo send one of your two covern groups to save him (I believe you won't)

The 45 hearthguards can launch 90*N bullets of 3+/3+/-1/1 damage towards Skaven in 15' if you merge in 10' of several Gryph Hounds. If you dont do that, then you are too far away from Hearthguards.

 

I dont really need to charge you, and the hearthguards can easily kill 6 warpfire team and 3 Stromfiend with shooting and reroll failed would.

 

 

  

[Nico]

Quote

A Runesmiter and 5 Hearthguards to tunnel down and behead the Arc-warlock in round 1 = 200

So they need to make a charge of 9 inches - not easy. Also they need to kill a dude with a 3+ save - again not easy. If they don't he will zap both units with his Chain Lightning AND an Arcane Bolt; and an extra D3 mortal wounds from his once per game gun.

Quote

11 Gryph Hounds stands in a circle of 18' diameter (centre circle with diameter 7' and about 6' distance between hounds and Hearthguards) = 440

If you waste 440 points on Gryph Hounds, he could just deploy normally in his deployment zone and win. Moreover, how is that remotely viable in a tournament setting unless you have a sideboard (which is no longer the default) - this army is useless against any normal army? 

Hearthguard only hit on 4+.

The maths is definitely wrong here:

Quote

Lord of Lodge battlion: 100+80+100+80+100 = 460

The Battalion itself is 160 points.

 

[Aeonotakist]

52 minutes ago, Nico said:

So they need to make a charge of 9 inches - not easy. Also they need to kill a dude with a 3+ save - again not easy. If they don't he will zap both units with his Chain Lightning AND an Arcane Bolt; and an extra D3 mortal wounds from his once per game gun.

If you waste 440 points on Gryph Hounds, he could just deploy normally in his deployment zone and win. Moreover, how is that remotely viable in a tournament setting unless you have a sideboard (which is no longer the default) - this army is useless against any normal army? 

Hearthguard only hit on 4+.

The maths is definitely wrong here:

The Battalion itself is 160 points.

I never understand why they need to charge... The Hearthguards can shot at 9' and deal 2~3 damage to a 3+ target (10 shots of 3+/3+/-1/1) and Runesmiter might succeed a charge (30%). Even if he failed, Fyreslayer with tunneling also got a 50% chance of doubel round like all Skaven Skryre player would hope for. If it is a double round, then the Warlock is sure doomed.

 

About the sideboard (I suppose you mean something to detect enemy's army before battle), I can have two armys with a Fyreslayer as backup for Skryre. As long as you don't need a player stick to one army list in a tourney (which at least is not the case here). I can always use this counter to surprise a Skryre player since he never know weather his opponent will turn to a Skryre killer.

 

And also Skryre team is extremely weak if deployed normally against any shooting table. You can try with any Hearthguards or Kunoth Hunter player with 25% less points to see who will win the game if you deploy normally.

 

For the hit part, Hearthguards are eventually 3+ if you read the scroll carefully. I made some mistakes on the points of Lord of Lodge but thats just 1 less grygh hounds which I am pretty sure in most cases 10 of them is good enough.

 

[chord]

6 hours ago, Aeonotakist said:

Actually the jevelin version is very powerful cause their ranged ability overpowered most skill shooter in the game like Kunoth Hunters. You should not put any of them in melee combat but just hit and run.

 

Jevelin Prosecutors are a shooting units with 30' effective range (12+18) and their leader has one more attack in shooting phase so a group of 3 will have a profile of 4A/3+/3+/half -1 half 0/2D with 80 points. Just look at what Judicator can do at 80 points...

Also they are so mobile that if I spam 8 units in a 1000 games, my opponents can hardly eliminate more than 2 units of them in each turn. Their core unit will face focus fire from different directions and have difficulty deciding which to charge.

Very few people really know Jevelin Prosecutors cause they are way to expensive and in AOS big box you only have the choice of celestial hammers version. That was quite misleading cause the one with celestial hammer is almost worst unit in Stormcast Eternity. (low profile in shooting and low save/ wound in combat) But I used pther things to indicate Jevelin Prosecutor against really boring opponents using anything he can fidn to indicate Mourngul. They out played most competive lists in my region.

 

They also get hard counters like empire cannon with cheap troops block Procecutos for 1~2 turns, full Fulmulators, or normal Stormcast troop with Gate Guardian Battlion.  Generally I dont think any spamming list in AOS can really stand as unbeatable.

Looking at their warscroll they are really good for 80 points.  And I agree the celestial hammer ones are horrible.