A discussion of the lore of AoS after 7 years

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, novakai said:

Now my opinion in this matter it isn’t the AoS lore that causing the lack of AoS video game but rather how GW licenses out and produce their IP video games and studio interesting in making these games. The two AoS games out currently where given to very small studio who don’t really have the budget to make polish games or a big title. The quality of Warhammer games are just all over the place.

Basically. Another big factor is that GW didn’t hand out the videogame licensing rights until half-way in 2017. They were waiting until after the global event of the Seeds of Hope campaign to see where players wanting to take the setting(thus Order winning an Age of Hope and building up civilizations and backgrounds) before announcing at the end of 2016 that they had the next 5 years of AoS planned out and would soon give out the license which companies like Cubicle7 grabbed up to start developing the Rpg. 
 

And even then the license buyers saw a new edition was in the way so delayed further to see what Malign Portents was about which is what caused Soulbound to get delayed over and over while Stormground & Tempestfall were then set in the new timeline instead of right after the Realmgate Wars.

Add the 2020 quarantines and you can see why AoS videogames are taking forever to start up with only the small budget stuff able to use 3 years of dev time instead of the usual 5-6 years.

Regardless, the floodgates will open soon for AoS with Frontier’s RTS on the way* and Nexon’s AoS MMO (yeah yeah I know Korea’s bad MTX rap but they did just get a new CEO so he might prove better about it) now that those license and development time hurdles are in the past and we can see more things coming out in the years ahead.

Personally would like to see some RPG’s. Deathgate’s point-and-click story adventure in Earth destroyed by a magic vortex and spread into 4 magical realms is Very similar to Age of Sigmar and a great way to show off the lore to a big audience with magic puzzles like going into painting worlds, counting the phase of floating continents to unlock a secret thief guild door or possessing a color-blind dog with necromancy and figuring out how to tell the difference between bottles of colored poisons to save your original body in a zombie prison.(seriously cool ideas like it’s Realm of Fire being the hollow interior of a planet with three suns made from the core causing huge jungles and giant trees to grow)

 

Less on my list but could still be cool with some factions(like Stormcast Vanguard explorers, Kharadron grappling hook marine, acrobatic Lumineth loreseeker, etc) would be something based of the Indie game Dread Delusion, an first-person action platformer in a very surreal reality of floating lands, demons, sky ships, machine gods, seedy towns and wandering benign undead.

 

*(on the RTS I’m completely okay if they just rip-off Dawn of War. Sure I’d love to see something like Age of Empires, Warcraft 3 or Rise of Legends but can’t argue with a system that works. Just replace the desolate landscape maps with bright magical realmscapes with more terrain than just Cover and we’re golden as Sigmarite.)

Edit: Oh, also I’m happy the RTS wasn’t in the Skulls event. With it delayed towards the end of next year it’s better they continue putting max effort into it rather than waste time on a teaser trailer now. I’d prefer a really nice trailer in December with the other big games for 2023.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

4 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

I also want to point out that just because Tolkien (or any other writer) did X Y Z super well, doesn't mean every single fantasy series is required to check off all of the same boxes.

Hate to say it as a fellow writer but GW is getting what they want to pay for IMO; even the most diehard AOS fan isn't going to crank out awesome lore if they're underpaid. Like you said, Reynolds left BL and it was most likely over money.

I may have not been clear.  I agree with you.  What I meant was unlike WHFB/40k, AoS is finally moving away from the standard generic Tolkien fantasy setting that I feel was done to death once saying generic fantasy setting gained wide understanding (like the early 2000s at latest). 

What I was getting at was AoS can't rely on the shorthand of previous works to fill in the gaps like Tolkien/D&D did for WHFB.  Or not nearly as much.  While AoS still basically has elves, dwarves, orks and other creatures common in any 'My First D&D Campaign', it also has a lot of things that do require more than, "This is an elf, but underwater that steals souls."  Especially in the setting's landscape and world building, beyond why mythic armies of legend (our armies) do battle all the time.  Which I think why the setting gets a thumbs down so often.  It's completely unfamiliar and has to do the work itself, instead of letting J.R.R. and Gygax cover the fundamentals and GW put on the flourishes.

As to your other paragraph: that's my concern as well.  I am not sure that GW willing to pay for good writers (assuming they can continue to attract them at all) once they find their feet and figure out AoS as a setting.  GW is likely to let them go, and get the next cheap, often inexperienced, writer to give it a go.  And something like that is likely to provide a schizophrenic experience as one writer doesn't like the previous stuff and/or wants to make their mark on the setting.  All of which could very easily continue to be the sparkly super mush product AoS mostly is today.

Or GW throws their hands up in the air and says, "40k is popular and works, make AoS 40k but not in space."  Which is where I worry about grimdark.  AoS has elements of grim and dark, but unlike 40k in which the galaxy is doomed and humanity is 2-minutes from midnight; AoS has a slim but definite chance that Sigmar can bring the Mortal Realms back to its former glory.  Of course, the Mortal Realms could still be far too corrupted to be recovered from Chaos, or Nagash equally could succeed in total control of everything in the Realms too.  It's even possible that Destruction just blows it all up too.  Every bloc/faction has a shot at coming out on top.  And few players/fans are able to say who as definitively as they can in 40k.  I want to maintain that tension that was thrown-away in 40k on the altar of grimdark.

[Kadeton]

As far as inspiration goes, sure AoS isn't strongly Tolkien-esque, but there's plenty of other fantasy it's still cribbing from. The setting always reminds me of Weis & Hickman's Death Gate Cycle, for instance, and there's plenty of Moorcock in there too. I don't think that's a bad thing - nothing is ever truly "original", and originality is often over-valued.

But it does lead directly into a discussion on the "echoes of 40K" feel, and I think that's been a perpetual mistake on GW's part. It's one of the most successful sci-fi settings of all time, and the Black Library authors are absolutely steeped in it, so obviously some of those elements and story beats are going to bleed across... but this comparison has plagued AoS right from the start, from the moment that "Sigmarines" became the focus of the new game.

To me, it feels like WHFB and 40K were thematically distinct, and had different audiences (or at least catered to different expectations of a broadly similar audience). The inception of AoS was an attempt to more closely align those themes, presumably in the hope that the fantasy audience would pick up more of the 40K audience's spending habits along the way. Instead, it was a huge failure, with significant backlash from the established audience whose expectations were abruptly no longer met by the setting. They had to slowly build up a new audience almost from scratch.

Within that initial framework and ever since, I think the writers have actually been doing a good job at developing the Mortal Realms in interesting ways that thematically diverge from the 40K-esque vision. But for whatever reason, GW are deeply unwilling to let go of that goal and keep nudging the game in that direction wherever they can.

[zilberfrid]

I am highly critical of the writing, even though I love the idea of the setting.

But.

I recently read some old testament, and some of the writing does have that same feel to it (and I dislike it equally). I've also seen similarities to the prose Eddas, though I value those higher for their historic value.

Another parallel is comic books.

I realize I just don't like heroic writing.

[Enoby]

One thing that's been touched on a bit is AoS's theme, and how that doesn't seem as strong (or at least as noticeable) as either 40k's or WHFB's. 

While I prefer AoS to 40k from a lore perspective, I can't disagree with the idea that 40k's theme is more flavourful and much easier to catch people in. This isn't a case of me being more familiar with 40k - I'm much more familiar with AoS.  

AoS's setting is not bland, but I'd argue its superficial theme is. By this I mean the idea someone gets of the setting by looking at a few of the models and the blurb. 

For 40k, if an interested person looked into it on a very light level, they'd immediately see "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war", coupled with a medieval si-fi design with strong 'religious' theming. Without reading a single book, they could become instantly hooked on the lore - wanting to learn more about the "most cruel and bloody regime imaginable". There are specific rules in the setting that guide everything. 

I don't think AoS currently has that kind of pull. The original tag line of AoS was "an age of neverending battle", coupled with big gold paladins. At least to me, and others I've asked, that doesn't really say anything or raise many questions. While it may look similar to "there is only war", the key part missing is a neat description of the setting - "in the grim dark future". In addition, the Stormcast designs weren't that thematically tied into the immediate tagline - yes, they're fighting, but that's the bare minimum for a wargame. The most it would tell you is that they're probably the good guys, which isn't really enough to draw people in. 

If we look at 40k again, one huge benefit that setting has is that you can describe the theme in an interesting way in reletively few words. If I said "in the future, humanity has regressed to a state of authoritarian madness, worshipping the a corpse on a throne who requires 1000 sacrifices a day", someone could easily instantly become hungry for more info; lots of questions are raised because it starts from a grounded source - humanity. I don't think I could give the same type of summary for AoS; if I were to try, it would probably be "a world died, and out of its remains spawned near infinite realms of magic. These realms lived in peace until Chaos returned to destroy their sanctuary; the god King Sigmar forged a new army of fallen heroes to take back the realms". I think, on its surface, it just doesn't sound as intriguing as 40k's lore. It's not bad, but it's also not that strongly themed - it sounds very high fantasy and without proper grounding. 

It's very hard to describe, and of course subjective, but AoS on its surface looks quite generic. It's not when you look into it, but new players need a hook to do that. It reminds me of the DnD and Pathfinder RPG settings - they're not bad when you look into them, but they're also not that inspiring on a surface level. Like AoS, because they're so varied, the theme doesn't stick out - they want to let you get away with your own creativity, so don't give an overarching theme that could restrict you. 

While I think the lack of strong theme can be good in that sense, it does mean fewer people give the lore a chance and there's less discussion about the happenings of the narrative.  

[Warfiend]

In my opinion AoS lore is one of the worst pieces of fiction ever invented. It’s bland and uninspired garbage.

it’s toddler level or stupid.

I like the models etc, but I think it nearly impossible to find someone to write you a more convoluted messy garbage then AoS is currently.

[Gitzdee]

Imho AoS design has some similarities with Magic the Gathering and the Planeswalkers. It is easy to create new stories in an open setting like this. But thats also the problem i guess. We have these generals or gods to follow around that are immortal or just cant stay dead so nothing really progresses. This kind of works in MtG because the lore is very thin and the focus is more on the tribes or monsters who live on the different planes. I think AoS focuses to much on these iconic characters. It feels like the world is in stasis because of that. I would rather see characters come and go. They could have epic victories and be wounded or die on the next battlefield. Just like leaders in the real world that come and go as history is being written and have made their mark on the world. This also makes for more interesting narrative games imo. 

Edit: I do like the races and the changes they made to them with the shift to AoS. It is at least trying to be its own thing now if u look past the funny names for copyright purposes. I like the idea behind the realms but i would rather have seen 1 world with different regions. The stories feel really disconnected sometimes like an event at one realm dont matter at all in another realm. Hoping my small vocabulary still makes my point come across.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Iksdee

[Vicar in a tutu]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

One thing that's been touched on a bit is AoS's theme, and how that doesn't seem as strong (or at least as noticeable) as either 40k's or WHFB's. 

While I prefer AoS to 40k from a lore perspective, I can't disagree with the idea that 40k's theme is more flavourful and much easier to catch people in. This isn't a case of me being more familiar with 40k - I'm much more familiar with AoS.  

AoS's setting is not bland, but I'd argue its superficial theme is. By this I mean the idea someone gets of the setting by looking at a few of the models and the blurb. 

For 40k, if an interested person looked into it on a very light level, they'd immediately see "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war", coupled with a medieval si-fi design with strong 'religious' theming. Without reading a single book, they could become instantly hooked on the lore - wanting to learn more about the "most cruel and bloody regime imaginable". There are specific rules in the setting that guide everything. 

I don't think AoS currently has that kind of pull. The original tag line of AoS was "an age of neverending battle", coupled with big gold paladins. At least to me, and others I've asked, that doesn't really say anything or raise many questions. While it may look similar to "there is only war", the key part missing is a neat description of the setting - "in the grim dark future". In addition, the Stormcast designs weren't that thematically tied into the immediate tagline - yes, they're fighting, but that's the bare minimum for a wargame. The most it would tell you is that they're probably the good guys, which isn't really enough to draw people in. 

If we look at 40k again, one huge benefit that setting has is that you can describe the theme in an interesting way in reletively few words. If I said "in the future, humanity has regressed to a state of authoritarian madness, worshipping the a corpse on a throne who requires 1000 sacrifices a day", someone could easily instantly become hungry for more info; lots of questions are raised because it starts from a grounded source - humanity. I don't think I could give the same type of summary for AoS; if I were to try, it would probably be "a world died, and out of its remains spawned near infinite realms of magic. These realms lived in peace until Chaos returned to destroy their sanctuary; the god King Sigmar forged a new army of fallen heroes to take back the realms". I think, on its surface, it just doesn't sound as intriguing as 40k's lore. It's not bad, but it's also not that strongly themed - it sounds very high fantasy and without proper grounding. 

It's very hard to describe, and of course subjective, but AoS on its surface looks quite generic. It's not when you look into it, but new players need a hook to do that. It reminds me of the DnD and Pathfinder RPG settings - they're not bad when you look into them, but they're also not that inspiring on a surface level. Like AoS, because they're so varied, the theme doesn't stick out - they want to let you get away with your own creativity, so don't give an overarching theme that could restrict you. 

While I think the lack of strong theme can be good in that sense, it does mean fewer people give the lore a chance and there's less discussion about the happenings of the narrative.  

These are excellent points and really hammer home what I've been feeling for a long time, but been unable to express that eloquently. I really think AoS should emphasize that it is a post-apocalyptic setting where the forces of civilization are attempting to rebuild. The newest edition of the game pivoted in this direction and for that reason I think the new Dawnbringer Crusades faction can really add some narrative punch to the game. I would love if Dawnbringer Crusades became the new "main faction" for AoS going forward. 

Early AoS = Reconquering (Stormcast Eternals)
Future AoS = Settling the wastelands (Dawnbringer Crusades with optional Stormcast elements) 

[derpherp]

6 hours ago, Enoby said:

AoS's setting is not bland, but I'd argue its superficial theme is. By this I mean the idea someone gets of the setting by looking at a few of the models and the blurb. 

For 40k, if an interested person looked into it on a very light level, they'd immediately see "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war", coupled with a medieval si-fi design with strong 'religious' theming. Without reading a single book, they could become instantly hooked on the lore - wanting to learn more about the "most cruel and bloody regime imaginable". There are specific rules in the setting that guide everything. 

I don't think AoS currently has that kind of pull.

 

Agreed, there's a reason that the AoS youtube lore scene just doesnt work as well as the 40k youtube lore, many things in 40k are compelling for their insanity and this hooks people very easily, most factions have something fascinating about them.

 

In AoS, if I wanted to create that 'Pull' you are talking about I would probably start by making the eternals have something deeply f**ked up about them. For example there could be a severe flaw for some of the eternals exacerbated through dying repeatedly where they start drinking the souls of innocent people. There could be some messed up dynamic where the public are giving a part or all of their soul to the eternal because of their belief and devotion to them, not knowing the eternal is descending into madness. At at a certain point the eternal devolves into being a feral beast and ends up ruling over a backwoods feudal town clad in dark clouds, slowly devouring the souls of the inhabitants and slowly becoming physically monstrous in some way.

Then a secret cabal of eternals that not even other eternals know about come in and exterminate the feral eternal and then cover up what happened by slaughtering the surviving town inhabitants and all in the surrounding area, tens of thousands killed to hide what is happening to just one eternal. The secret cabal believe what they are doing is a necessary evil as having the people turn against the eternals would invite chaos. Then when you start seeing subtle hints of this feral-ness and hunger appearing in a big important character, general etc, its like an 'oh sh*t' moment, are they going to turn too? Is this terrifying flaw in more than just a few of the eternals? What happens if a feral eternal is left to feast and change until it reaches its final form?

I could probably hook a newbie with something like that a lot more easily than they just become more godly and inhuman as they die more, it feels more juicy.

 

Nagash is a great arch-necromancer design visually, and I feel like he could make fascinating antagonist in a video game where he is animated and voiced. (Maybe that game Frontier is making) but I feel if I'm telling someone about him I'm missing a hook, or rather something he accomplished that makes you go 'woah'. I'd have him discover a continent in the mortal realms which is inhabited by a billion unknowing people. He then turns all of those people to undead and then forms them all together creating some kind of named horrifying amalgamation monster out of a billion bodies (or maybe just millions) , something that flows or strides across the land, or maybe a great floating city made of death. The scale of it is the conceptually compelling part here, you get the 'oh this necromancer is so terrifying that he can turn a billion innocent people into this single mind bendingly horrifying creature' kind of deal. 

 

The Skaven are probably the faction with the most lore 'juice' in AoS honestly, they are easiest to explain to someone in a sentence that makes them want to know more and they feel the most unique to warhammer. "Crazy rats that all believe they are the chosen one and build insane machines that blow up killing their side half the time, they are also innumerable." or "Crazy fantasy rat people who can build nuclear bombs" referencing the pseudo-nuke they made in the end times. 

 

Making things instantly compelling and have 'Pull' is hard. Making fantasy factions that stand out from generic fantasy is hard too. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by derpherp

[CommissarRotke]

6 hours ago, Enoby said:

For 40k, if an interested person looked into it on a very light level, they'd immediately see "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war", coupled with a medieval si-fi design with strong 'religious' theming. Without reading a single book, they could become instantly hooked on the lore - wanting to learn more about the "most cruel and bloody regime imaginable". There are specific rules in the setting that guide everything. 

 

Are you also comparing the 3.0 blurb to the one 40k's had for decades? I'm trying to find it, but I remember thinking "this one is much closer to 40k's finalized version" seems only fair since I doubt 40k got theirs on the first try.

[CommissarRotke]

5 minutes ago, derpherp said:

I could probably hook a newbie with something like that a lot more easily than they just become more godly and inhuman as they die more, it feels more juicy.

 

Maybe a 40k fan specifically..? This is the Blood Angels' geneseed flaw innit?

[CommissarRotke]

Here's the 2.0 Blurb I think?? If it is, it's what got me to buy the Soul Wars box to jump back in:

Quote

From the maelstrom of a sundered world, the Eight Realms were born. The formless and the divine exploded into life. Strange, new worlds appeared in the firmament, each one gilded with spirits, gods and men. Noblest of the gods was Sigmar. For years beyond reckoning he illuminated the realms, wreathed in light and majesty as he carved out his reign. His strength was the power of thunder. His wisdom was infinite. Mortal and immortal alike kneeled before his lofty throne. Great empires rose and, for a while, treachery was banished. Sigmar claimed the land and sky as his own and ruled over a glorious age of myth. But cruelty is tenacious. As had been foreseen, the great alliance of gods and men tore itself apart. Myth and legend crumbled into Chaos. Darkness flooded the realms. Torture, slavery and fear replaced the glory that came before. Sigmar turned his back on the mortal kingdoms, disgusted by their fate. He fixed his gaze instead on the remains of the world he had lost long ago, brooding over its charred core, searching endlessly for a sign of hope. And then, in the dark heat of his rage, he caught a glimpse of something magnificent. He pictured a weapon born of the heavens. A beacon powerful enough to pierce the endless night. An army hewn from everything he had lost. Sigmar set his artisans to work and for long ages they toiled, striving to harness the power of the stars. As Sigmar’s great work neared completion, he turned back to the realms and saw that the dominion of Chaos was almost complete. The hour for vengeance had come. Finally, with lightning blazing across his brow, he stepped forth to unleash his creation. The Age of Sigmar had begun.

A thousand battle cries mingle with screams as they rise to the storm-lashed skies. Blades and hammers crash upon armour, sink deep into flesh, take heads from necks. Peril and strife are constants in these Mortal Realms, these tortured kingdoms that stand so close to the precipice of disaster. Only an army of demigods could hope to pull them back from the brink. Such an army exists, forged for this very hour by Sigmar and his broken pantheon. That numinous host fights with every iota of its god-given strength to deny the final victory of Chaos, to save those pockets of humanity that can still be salvaged and bring them back into the fight. Civilisation must rise again and, in places, it is taking root once more. But the towers and spires of progress cast long shadows of their own…

 

[derpherp]

24 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

Maybe a 40k fan specifically..? This is the Blood Angels' geneseed flaw innit?

Simplistically yes, but a more compelling version of it. The red thirst is pretty standard vampire stuff and without a transformation. This could be less vampire and more like a feral madness where they are subconsciously aware that they are broken, and the taking of souls is them trying to desperately frankenstein fix their own broken soul by stitching other parts of souls to it creating a soul monster that then affects their physical form in some horrifying way. Then you have the secret cabal cover up which is its own juicy thread and suggests other problems with the eternals.

Or something like that, it's just an example of something compelling that could catch the imagination of someone passing by.

Edited June 7, 2022 by derpherp

[Enoby]

13 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

Are you also comparing the 3.0 blurb to the one 40k's had for decades? I'm trying to find it, but I remember thinking "this one is much closer to 40k's finalized version" seems only fair since I doubt 40k got theirs on the first try.

I'm more trying to compare the themes rather than the lore - so blurb vs blurb. From what I understand, 40k has always been some variation of "in the grim dark future there is only war". 

From Rogue Trader:

It's definitely been refined over the years, no question, but I think this theme of 40k really resonated with people immediately. This is probably shown best by the fact it overtook Fantasy, which had more time on 40k. 

I don't think current AoS has this immediate pull in its theme for many people. Don't get me wrong - I like current AoS lore. I much prefer it to 40k. But I just don't think it has the same innate pull.

As mentioned before, but I'll elaborate, AoS reminds me of an RPG setting. When I play Pathfinder, I don't care all that much about Golorian, but I do appreciate I can make pretty much what I want, and add in settlements that help fit my character. The world doesn't have a hook, but I prefer that to having a tonne of restrictions.

To look at AoS vs 40k, if I want my army to fit into 40k then I have to jump through hoops to the point I might not end up making the character I wanted. In AoS, I could make up my own society and it would fit in just fine with very few things (if any) that needed a change. I love that about the setting for a wargame.

But despite much prefering playing and creating in the world of AoS, and thinking 40k's actual lore is a bit naff and limp wristed, I still think 40k has a better draw. On a blurb vs blurb basis, 40k just has a more interesting setting on the surface level.

[JReynolds]

It's been two years or so since I last did any work for BL/GW, I figure I'm safe to participate in this topic - which I really want to do, as it's near and dear to my heart, and at least partially responsible for me no longer writing for the company. So, a brief and by no means complete (or unbiased) history lesson which may answer some questions - or at least provide context for the many and largely valid complaints in this thread.

AoS' spotty inception is, IMO, due to two major factors - the first being inter-studio miscommunication. Initially, Black Library was going to be solely in charge of the setting background and the ongoing narrative - the chosen authors would handle breathing life into their part of the setting (Aqshy, Ghyran, Chamon) and build up a living world for the game to revolve around - the setting would then evolve and change with each edition as major events occurred. 

This mandate lasted exactly - oh, two weeks?  It was then decided that BL would instead be responsible for writing to the approved studio narrative, i.e. if it ain't got a model and we ain't mentioned it in a campaign book, it don't exist. Why the change? No idea. Like as not, someone realized putting a bunch of freelancers in charge of that sort of thing wasn't conducive to miniature sales, which - fair enough.

The problem was, there was a distinct lack of worldbuilding in said approved material and this didn't change for a long time. And there was no worldbuilding because - well. Rumor has it that the people in charge thought that it wasn't necessary. I suspect it was more a case of the initial project being rushed and fairly bare bones in order to make a deadline and then no one having the time or wherewithal to add to it. 

This is largely the reason the Realmgate Wars series is the way it is - the writers were given a brief and had to stick to it ('This is the story of a battle. Write about the battle. Make the new models look cool'). No unapproved additions to the lore, no unnecessary worldbuilding, no texture, stick to what you're given (or not given, as was the case often enough), straight down the line. Even if what you're given is wrong/out of date/no longer part of that quarter's release schedule. 

This segues into the second factor: no one knew what AoS 1.0 was about. Were Stormcast just space marines in fantasy cosplay or something else? Were the realms habitable? Was Sigmar still Sigmar? We genuinely didn't know what this thing was supposed to be, so we wrote what we were told to write and nothing more. And the studio didn't know what it was supposed to be because they hadn't had time to properly think about it. 

When BL broke away from Publications and became its own beast again, things improved - briefly. But, by that time, it had been decided that the lore was to stay in the hands of the studio and if the studio hadn't gotten around to filling in some blanks, well...tough cookies. Avoid it. Don't write about it. See the early vagueness regarding Freeguilds, money, etc. So, basically same mess, different day. 

[Side note: one reason that there were a lot of Stormcast stories early on is because we knew how the Stormcast worked. It was safe to pitch a Stormcast story. Everything else was a bit hodgepodge - you had to go to the studio to get the down-low and, often as not, the studio's answer was the email equivalent of a shrug and a polite suggestion to write about something else. Everything was in flux; how things (factions, places, etc.) worked changed month-to-month at times.]

As a freelancer, it was frustrating even at the best of times. Sometimes you could get away with inventing things; sometimes not. Sometimes you make the Arch-Lector of the Church of Sigmar a woman and get yelled at over the phone. Safest just to avoid adding to the IP in any fashion. 

AoS 2.0 was a big improvement, mind. But it was also a big shift from the setting's previous tone and theme. 1.0 was post-apocalyptic Jack Kirby fantasy, but that wasn't popular, so it shifted to 2.0 and a grimdark Moorcockian flavour to try and recapture some of the WHFB base, but apparently that didn't work either so I guess they're trying something different now. They've tried to keep the original idea of an evolving narrative, but they also want a static setting and, well, you can't really have it both ways. So that leads to the lore bouncing all over the place as it tries to find its feet. 

All of this is why - at least in regards to the BL end - the AoS lore was and still is spotty and somewhat schizophrenic, at least in my opinion. The studio is still playing catch up on the lore and while Cubicle 7 is giving it the old college try, the background is still two or three editions behind where it should be in terms of development. 

tldr; AoS lacks a strong theme because no one is really sure what the setting is supposed to feel like yet. The lore wants to be simultaneously ever-evolving and static, which is...difficult to accomplish, at best. So it feels ephemeral and ill thought out, rather than cosmic and weighty. 

[Enoby]

21 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

Here's the 2.0 Blurb I think?? If it is, it's what got me to buy the Soul Wars box to jump back in:

 

Just saw this pop up after my message, thanks for finding the blurb

I should have been clearer, when I say blurb, I meant more "short summary in 100 characters or less", which I didn't make clear - sorry. I guess "blurb vs blurb" would be better said as "condensed theme vs condensed theme".

I think though, commenting specifically on the blurb you gave, it sounds cool but still doesn't grab me. It doesn't really give strong themes other than "good vs evil in a battle of reclamation" (of course, there are others, but that seems to be the main one). This isn't bad by any means, but there's just something more gripping and depressingly human about:

"It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor of Mankind has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the master of mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the vast Imperium of Man for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day so that he may never truly die.Yet even in his deathless state, the Emperor continues his eternal vigilance. Mighty battlefleets cross the daemon-infested miasma of the Warp, the only route between distant stars, their way lit by the Astronomican, the psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will. Vast armies give battle in His name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst his soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered super-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defence forces, the ever-vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat to humanity from aliens, heretics, mutants -- and far, far worse. To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

The description of the god as a "rotting carcass", "Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war", and "There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods" paint the setting so well, and in such a visceral way. 

 

[derpherp]

17 minutes ago, JReynolds said:

the studio is still playing catch up on the lore and while Cubicle 7 is giving it the old college try, the background is still two or three editions behind where it should be in terms of development. 

tldr; AoS lacks a strong theme because no one is really sure what the setting is supposed to feel like yet. The lore wants to be simultaneously ever-evolving and static, which is...difficult to accomplish, at best. So it feels ephemeral and ill thought out, rather than cosmic and weighty. 

Interesting. I suppose it hasn't helped what with covid etc. I've heard it said a few times that they are behind on their general model release schedule too amongst other things.

I suppose it's thematic AoS has a messy release considering how fantasy and 40k formed out of 70s and 80s primordial goop over years. 

I hope they are savvy enough to keep going with the improvements and really figure things out. I'd like to see AoS rival warcraft as an IP someday.

Edited June 7, 2022 by derpherp

[JReynolds]

2 minutes ago, derpherp said:

Interesting. I suppose it hasn't helped what with covid etc. I've heard it said a few times that they are behind on their general model release schedule too amongst other things.

I suppose it's thematic AoS has a messy release considering how fantasy and 40k formed out of 70s and 80s primordial goop over years. 

I hope they are savvy enough to keep going with the improvements and really figure things out. I'd like to see AoS rival warcraft as an IP someday.

I think it could. It's always had the potential to be this wild, weird setting with knights made out of birds and castles constructed from crystalized voices contrasted against the daily tribulations of a normal inhabitant of these mind-bending realms, but the pragmatic necessities of it being a wargame setting often hamper the exploration of the varied possibilities. 

[Baron Klatz]

17 minutes ago, JReynolds said:

This is largely the reason the Realmgate Wars series is the way it is - the writers were given a brief and had to stick to it ('This is the story of a battle. Write about the battle. Make the new models look cool'). No unapproved additions to the lore, no unnecessary worldbuilding, no texture, stick to what you're given (or not given, as was the case often enough), straight down the line. Even if what you're given is wrong/out of date/no longer part of that quarter's release schedule. 

This segues into the second factor: no one knew what AoS 1.0 was about. Were Stormcast just space marines in fantasy cosplay or something else? Were the realms habitable? Was Sigmar still Sigmar? We genuinely didn't know what this thing was supposed to be, so we wrote what we were told to write and nothing more. And the studio didn't know what it was supposed to be because they hadn't had time to properly think about it. 

Very interesting!

Well let me just say you and Darius Hinks did phenomenal jobs crafting such fantastic backgrounds despite the first step restrictions in the Realmgate Wars.
 

His “Hammers of Sigmar” novel really fleshed out how the Bloodbound turned the once civilized and magical realms into hellscapes with the horrified viewpoint of the Aqshy priestess seeing the once prosperous villages turned into hollow ghost towns with the tribesmen wearing daemon costumes to appease their masters while a small drop of spilt blood can cause a swarm of manticores to come down like sharks on lava sailing barges sailing to void-shattered cities where once organized Titans dwelled with only their ghosts left to file in front with massive spears to a repel a assault that happened centuries ago.

Your works on the Crawling City from the first Pestilens book was really great for that flavor too as was your work on the Black Rift crater kingdoms that got such positive reviews back when:

 

“The story opens with Orius Adamantine leading his Warrior Chamber of the Hammers of Sigmar against the bloodbound. They are assaulting the crater kingdoms of Tephra in Aqshy, which had very recently been conquered by khorne’s warriors. The world building in this is fantastic. You really get a sense of what this place was like back when it was a functioning kingdom. We only see the kingdom of Klaxus, but all of the other kingdoms got a ton of name drops, and it seems like their is a jungle inside this crater that separates the kingdoms. In fact, it seems like this crater must be massive in size. The world building is never presented to you all at once in an exposition dump either, it’s slowly built up as the Stormcast push their way through the city. It all felt very organic and completely believable within the Realms of AoS.”

 

Your work on that stuff and how willingly you answer fans is a humongous boon to the AoS lexicanum:

" Hey Josh, could you help me out with the geography in Black Rift? There's the Tephra Krater, Uryx, Ytalan, Klaxus, and I'm just not sure I have it all straight in my head. Thanks!"-Alex Polimeni

“The Tephra Crater contains the Crater Kingdoms, the largest of which is Klaxus, which occupied the northern slopes. Uryx is the capital of Klaxus. The Rim-Citadel of Ytalan is a massive bastion built atop the crater's southern edge, guarding the Great Southern Way into the nameless minor kingdoms below. The Kingdom of Raxul occupies the western slopes of the crater, and is reachable through the ancient lava-tubes which were once the magmahold of a Fyreslayer lodge, now long extinct. The Steam-Ramparts of the rim-kingdom of Balyx provide entry to the eastern slopes, and the arboreal kingdom of Vaxtl. Those are the major points, named in the book.”

I don’t think you and the other writers truly realize how much great work you put in to make Age of Sigmar feel like a living breathing setting of that infinite potential you love.  

1 hour ago, derpherp said:

I could probably hook a newbie with something like that a lot more easily than they just become more godly and inhuman as they die more, it feels more juicy.

I dunno man, even since the start of AoS I was able to sell people on Stormcast and the setting with all the comparisons you can make to Dark Souls with their Ornstein & Looking Glass Knight designs alongside their reforging process making them “go hollow” until they become Lightning golems as living storms encased/contained by the armor with their past identity lost as pure weapons of Order.
 

That stuff draws a lot more heads than you may think with how many people I converted into the Faithful between Reddit and even the salty Dakkadakka forums.

 

20 minutes ago, JReynolds said:

I think it could. It's always had the potential to be this wild, weird setting with knights made out of birds and castles constructed from crystalized voices contrasted against the daily tribulations of a normal inhabitant of these mind-bending realms, but the pragmatic necessities of it being a wargame setting often hamper the exploration of the varied possibilities. 

At least there’s steps towards it with the transforming Dove maidens of Neos and Sigmar encasing God-beast voices in crystal to empower some of his Stormcasts like the howl of Ulfdengnarl giving the Vanguard their wind & teleport powers.

“They are imbued with the death cry of Ulfdengnarl, the Great Wolf of the Howling Winds, a godbeast slain by Sigmar in the Age of Myth whose final wail was encased in crystal. As Stormcast Eternals, they continue their hunt for enemy officers, whilst demonstrating all of the Great Wolf ’s instincts for pursuing and destroying prey.”

-Soulbound, Champions of Order.

 

Also did you notice how close the new Krondspine Incarnate looks to your AoS horror descriptions of Ghur spirits?  

[JReynolds]

19 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Also did you notice how close the new Krondspine Incarnate looks to your AoS horror descriptions of Ghur spirits?  

I did not, no. Though, in my defence I've been busy writing a Zombicide novel, so I haven't been paying much attention. 

[CommissarRotke]

23 hours ago, JReynolds said:

tldr; AoS lacks a strong theme because no one is really sure what the setting is supposed to feel like yet. The lore wants to be simultaneously ever-evolving and static, which is...difficult to accomplish, at best. So it feels ephemeral and ill thought out, rather than cosmic and weighty. 

Thank you very much for this reply!! It definitely explains why it feels like GW still hasn't *fully* put its weight behind AOS. Quite vindicating tbh. The possibility of AOS being cosmic and weighty still feels like it's only a couple steps ahead.

23 hours ago, Enoby said:

I should have been clearer, when I say blurb, I meant more "short summary in 100 characters or less", which I didn't make clear - sorry. I guess "blurb vs blurb" would be better said as "condensed theme vs condensed theme".

 

Ahh yeah, in that case the 40k one is definitely honed to perfection. I will have to break out my 3.0 corebook when I get home because I know that one has a more condensed version and it felt much more punchy than the one I found.

23 hours ago, derpherp said:

Simplistically yes, but a more compelling version of it. The red thirst is pretty standard vampire stuff and without a transformation. This could be less vampire and more like a feral madness where they are subconsciously aware that they are broken, and the taking of souls is them trying to desperately frankenstein fix their own broken soul by stitching other parts of souls to it creating a soul monster that then affects their physical form in some horrifying way. Then you have the secret cabal cover up which is its own juicy thread and suggests other problems with the eternals.

 

I guess if you're looking for that it might work, but Stormcast as they are are more tragic heroes. And I think that there is a LOT that can be done with this. There is so much that can be done with the Stormcast flaw that doesn't force them to become immoral or corrupted like with Space Marines.

We're talking about immortal heroes that have been picked for their courage and original sacrifice. How far would one go to protect civilization? How many times can you sacrifice yourself before your mind starts to fracture? And when your mind does, eventually, start to fracture--how do you hold on?

You can't stop hollowing yourself out because it's part of your job. It's the entire reason you were chosen. To fracture your soul and hollow yourself out in service to the countless mortals you're sworn to protect. Memories of your own family gone, to protect another. Memories of first loves and first kisses, gone so that other children will grow up to have their own.

Maybe the worst part is that it *doesn't* happen to you, so you get to watch as your friends and comrades lose the parts of themselves that forged your immutable bonds. A friend loses enough of his mind that he cannot distinguish innocence from corruption; what happens when he tries attacking mortals with no basis? You have to kill him. Your orders are to protect the weak, to protect the mortals, to defend civilization. Your friend is sick and broken, but he will come back--the mortals will not. You have to kill him.

Edited June 8, 2022 by CommissarRotke

[derpherp]

2 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

I guess if you're looking for that it might work, but Stormcast as they are are more tragic heroes. And I think that there is a LOT that can be done with this. There is so much that can be done with the Stormcast flaw that doesn't force them to become immoral or corrupted like with Space Marines.

This is fine and I don't disagree that a lot can be done with the eternals as they are, but I was replying specifically to this comment by Enoby:

 "40k's theme is more flavourful and much easier to catch people in.... lack of strong theme can be good in that sense, it does mean fewer people give the lore a chance... I don't think AoS currently has that kind of pull."

I find it harder than 40k to describe various current AoS factions in a way can be said in a sentence or two that immediately puts its hooks into a passer-by and makes them immediately want to learn more. With the possible exception of the Skaven.

IMO That way of hooking people in is probably why the 40k youtube lore scene is so effective.

 

[Baron Klatz]

21 minutes ago, JReynolds said:

I did not, no. Though, in my defence I've been busy writing a Zombicide novel, so I haven't been paying much attention. 

Noice! Best of luck with the novel.  

And yeah, I think AoS 3.0 and onward will more and more meet your expectations. Just going off your horror list the Krondspine resembles your hungry skeletal Ghur spirits and with UnderWorlds in Ulgu we got moon daemons that are stealing people’s shadows and replacing them with ethereal parasites that grow in Hysh’s eternal light which are very much in your ballpark of ideas:

"There are all sorts of non-Chaos horrors in the Mortal Realms. Here are possibly a few:

In Ghyran, it's possibly the Gardynals - predatory plants that resemble caves, houses, or even citadels, and devour those who seek shelter within them. They travel with the monsoons, and nestle in areas near the largest concentrations of prey, allowing as many as possible to enter before snapping shut their jaws and prowling away.

In Hysh, it could be the Sun Dogs, which stalk and devour the shadows of the unwary. The effects of this are unpleasant, for nature abhors a vacuum and if one's shadow is missing, something may grow to replace it.

In Ulgu, there are similar beasts, called Shirkers, which eat the light from their victims's eyes, and blind them. Their howls lead their prey deeper into the umbral maze of the Realm of Shadows, before the packs descend to nip at their victim's sight, until they are lost, alone and blind, in the shadow-lands.

In Aqshy, it might be the Fire Clown - a jovial, unsettling wanderer who fills the unlucky with heated emotions of all sorts, leading to unfortunate, inevitable consequences, or else makes them spontaneously combust with mirth.

In Ghur, there's the Hungry Wind, a maelstrom of cannibal spirits that strips the flesh from those caught outdoors when it blows through. These spirits are nnot of Shyish, or of Chaos...some whisper that they might be the manifestation of Ghur itself.”

 

With Cubicle7 still needing to release their Age of Sigmar Horrors of the Realms supplement I hope we can see more idea parallels. 😍
 

 

[Beliman]

Thx for the input @JReynolds

I'm not sure that the post-apocalyptic theme from 1.0 was fleshed out enough for all consumers. Same with 2.0 "grimdark". One army or a few books can't make the setting feel grimdark or post-apocalyptic. It's the whole game that needs to follow one theme (even if some armies are on the edge of that theme).

I don't know, but as a KO player (and KO reader), the game is more about fantasy/sci-fi adventures from the 60s than anything else.

[Whitefang]

2 hours ago, JReynolds said:

It's been two years or so since I last did any work for BL/GW, I figure I'm safe to participate in this topic - which I really want to do, as it's near and dear to my heart, and at least partially responsible for me no longer writing for the company. So, a brief and by no means complete (or unbiased) history lesson which may answer some questions - or at least provide context for the many and largely valid complaints in this thread.

AoS' spotty inception is, IMO, due to two major factors - the first being inter-studio miscommunication. Initially, Black Library was going to be solely in charge of the setting background and the ongoing narrative - the chosen authors would handle breathing life into their part of the setting (Aqshy, Ghyran, Chamon) and build up a living world for the game to revolve around - the setting would then evolve and change with each edition as major events occurred. 

This mandate lasted exactly - oh, two weeks?  It was then decided that BL would instead be responsible for writing to the approved studio narrative, i.e. if it ain't got a model and we ain't mentioned it in a campaign book, it don't exist. Why the change? No idea. Like as not, someone realized putting a bunch of freelancers in charge of that sort of thing wasn't conducive to miniature sales, which - fair enough.

The problem was, there was a distinct lack of worldbuilding in said approved material and this didn't change for a long time. And there was no worldbuilding because - well. Rumor has it that the people in charge thought that it wasn't necessary. I suspect it was more a case of the initial project being rushed and fairly bare bones in order to make a deadline and then no one having the time or wherewithal to add to it. 

This is largely the reason the Realmgate Wars series is the way it is - the writers were given a brief and had to stick to it ('This is the story of a battle. Write about the battle. Make the new models look cool'). No unapproved additions to the lore, no unnecessary worldbuilding, no texture, stick to what you're given (or not given, as was the case often enough), straight down the line. Even if what you're given is wrong/out of date/no longer part of that quarter's release schedule. 

This segues into the second factor: no one knew what AoS 1.0 was about. Were Stormcast just space marines in fantasy cosplay or something else? Were the realms habitable? Was Sigmar still Sigmar? We genuinely didn't know what this thing was supposed to be, so we wrote what we were told to write and nothing more. And the studio didn't know what it was supposed to be because they hadn't had time to properly think about it. 

When BL broke away from Publications and became its own beast again, things improved - briefly. But, by that time, it had been decided that the lore was to stay in the hands of the studio and if the studio hadn't gotten around to filling in some blanks, well...tough cookies. Avoid it. Don't write about it. See the early vagueness regarding Freeguilds, money, etc. So, basically same mess, different day. 

[Side note: one reason that there were a lot of Stormcast stories early on is because we knew how the Stormcast worked. It was safe to pitch a Stormcast story. Everything else was a bit hodgepodge - you had to go to the studio to get the down-low and, often as not, the studio's answer was the email equivalent of a shrug and a polite suggestion to write about something else. Everything was in flux; how things (factions, places, etc.) worked changed month-to-month at times.]

As a freelancer, it was frustrating even at the best of times. Sometimes you could get away with inventing things; sometimes not. Sometimes you make the Arch-Lector of the Church of Sigmar a woman and get yelled at over the phone. Safest just to avoid adding to the IP in any fashion. 

AoS 2.0 was a big improvement, mind. But it was also a big shift from the setting's previous tone and theme. 1.0 was post-apocalyptic Jack Kirby fantasy, but that wasn't popular, so it shifted to 2.0 and a grimdark Moorcockian flavour to try and recapture some of the WHFB base, but apparently that didn't work either so I guess they're trying something different now. They've tried to keep the original idea of an evolving narrative, but they also want a static setting and, well, you can't really have it both ways. So that leads to the lore bouncing all over the place as it tries to find its feet. 

All of this is why - at least in regards to the BL end - the AoS lore was and still is spotty and somewhat schizophrenic, at least in my opinion. The studio is still playing catch up on the lore and while Cubicle 7 is giving it the old college try, the background is still two or three editions behind where it should be in terms of development. 

tldr; AoS lacks a strong theme because no one is really sure what the setting is supposed to feel like yet. The lore wants to be simultaneously ever-evolving and static, which is...difficult to accomplish, at best. So it feels ephemeral and ill thought out, rather than cosmic and weighty. 

Excellent briefing mister! And it's good to see you here again!

May I ask if you feel the same way when writing for 40k？ Or is it better because that setting is more established and seasoned?