A discussion of the lore of AoS after 7 years

[Gitzdee]

2 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

I think it's more than fair to point out that things are better over in Black Library land, and I'll definitely check out those Omnibuses. However, first impressions really matter, and if the setting as presented in the sourcebooks is giving the wrong impression, not encouraging people to seek out the deeper lore, and inviting accusations of being shallow and bland, that's GW failing its readers, not them failing GW.

This.
World building can also be continued on the community pages and not behind a wall of Black Library books. Some essential pieces of information about characters or a race should not be hidden like that. I would actually like it if they made a Wiki style community page where u can read all the basic information about the Realms and Races/Gods. Someone cant be expected to read all battletomes and books to know whats going on in the game. Things like Thondia and Broken Realms are a good addition imho.

[Beliman]

15 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

But nah, I don’t see that as very compelling when less gods means less avenues to explore with worshippers and how the realms are shaped. If anything we need more to expand the cosmic politics and give mortals more choices.

Besides we see with Grimnir that death to a god is usually an inconvenience as long as they have believers that can one day restore their physical form.

That's not true!

A dead god means a lot: a legacy, his worshippers, his societies and his deeds and achievements are going to still be there, perfectly prepared to be explored and breaking the rule of "one king with followers", because that king is not longer there.

A good example, as you said, are the Fyreslayers. But what about something more fleshed out than just a few lines in the battletomes?

Let me try, an entire Empire that lost their God? This Empire could then be twisted by their most religious group and become exactly the oposite of what their god wanted. Hey, that sounds familiar!

[xking]

15 minutes ago, Iksdee said:

This.
World building can also be continued on the community pages and not behind a wall of Black Library books. Some essential pieces of information about characters or a race should not be hidden like that. I would actually like it if they made a Wiki style community page where u can read all the basic information about the Realms and Races/Gods. Someone cant be expected to read all battletomes and books to know whats going on in the game. Things like Thondia and Broken Realms are a good addition imho.

You mean like the AoS lexi?

Edited June 8, 2022 by xking

[xking]

7 minutes ago, Beliman said:

That's not true!

A dead god means a lot: a legacy, his worshippers, his societies and his deeds and achievements are going to still be there, perfectly prepared to be explored and breaking the rule of "one king with followers", because that king is not longer there.

A good example, as you said, are the Fyreslayers. But what about something more fleshed out than just a few lines in the battletomes?

Let me try, an entire Empire that lost their God? This Empire could then be twisted by their most religious group and become exactly the oposite of what their god wanted. Hey, that sounds familiar!

Nagash has been killed several times. 

[Baron Klatz]

32 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

However, first impressions really matter, and if the setting as presented in the sourcebooks is giving the wrong impression,

On one hand fair point but on the otherhand I’m not sure they ever given the wrong impression either.

Like I got both Stormcast tomes from 2.0 & 3.0 here and they go into that reforgings can take a number of things including memories while going into very heroic or odd humorous stuff like Hallowed Knights following diseased marchers in secret to make sure the sanctum they go to honors them and a famous Vanguard leader who was raised in a cave by Gryph-hounds. Those really drive an interest to look further into their lore.
 

I guess it’s fair to say rulebook-wise it’s only giving the bare minimum to encourage you into the Battletomes and novels but I don’t see the problem with that either as that’s not the rule book’s main function. 
 

I apologized for sounding elitist earlier on this subject but I do stand by that it does feel like some critics are judging without a fair assessment. Even without the books there’s lots of wikis and reviews by others people can look into to get an idea of the setting.

13 minutes ago, Beliman said:

A dead god means a lot: a legacy, his worshippers, his societies and his deeds and achievements are going to still be there, perfectly prepared to be explored and breaking the rule of "one king with followers", because that king is not longer there.

Eh, it can but it could also spell the end for those followers if they get swallowed up by other powers(literally in the case of so many Shyish kingdoms that disappeared after Nagash ate their gods) with full gods behind them as that society just lost it’s powers with it’s god.

It’d have to be handled with care whichever the scenario.

20 minutes ago, Iksdee said:

I would actually like it if they made a Wiki style community page where u can read all the basic information about the Realms and Races/Gods.

Okay your heart’s in the right place but the mere thought of GW making a limited site with poor search qualities that could see their legal teams shut down the Lexicanum as a competitor made my heart skip a beat in terror. 😧 

Seriously people, all you wanting free and detailed lore, just use the bloody Lexicanum and Wiki fans work hard on to update for the current lore.

https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kharadron_Overlords

https://ageofsigmar.fandom.com/wiki/Kharadron_Overlords

(examples because Kharadrons have so much to their background. Feel free to look up Age of Myth and God-beast Zodiac pantheon too among other stuff too!)

Edited June 8, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Beliman]

2 minutes ago, xking said:

Nagash has been killed several times. 

Emmm... that's exactly what I don't want to see. An edgy (and anecdotal) case of a God of Death being on hollydays without any impact on the game, battletomes and the story.

[Gitzdee]

17 minutes ago, xking said:

You like the AoS lexi?

Not literally, it is really old fashioned. But i would like to be able to browse the Warcom information like that. There are actually some fun articles on Warcom but those are impossible to find after the get lost in the database. I do like to read up on some things from time to time using those lexi/fandom sites.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Iksdee

[silverstu]

3 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Emmm... that's exactly what I don't want to see. An edgy (and anecdotal) case of a God of Death being on hollydays without any impact on the game, battletomes and the story.

Well there is dead dead and mostly dead.., I thought Grimnir was shattered not destroyed. I'm not well read on AoS lore, mostly focused on KO,i have to say the world building improved a lot in their book between 1st and 2nd, there was a greater sense of the society generally and I have enjoyed some of the BL short Stories around them too. My sense of of things is that AoS is beginning to mature into a deeper setting. I was a WFB player from 1st ed and that world was so deep and rich but it built up over years. AoS definitely suffered from an awkward initial release and has changed direction since. I hope it will continue to mature but I can see were the problems are, the setting being so big and full of possibilities you need both the overarching story and the smaller, personal tales, WFB was a smaller setting as well so that made it easier as well as being a very settled one. 

[xking]

5 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Emmm... that's exactly what I don't want to see. An edgy (and anecdotal) case of a God of Death being on hollydays without any impact on the game, battletomes and the story.

What is death to a god? Even grimnir is starting to resurrect. Even many of the underworld deities may be returning with nagash temporarily out of the way and with the anvils of the heldenhammer spreading their faith among the underworlds once again.

I will tell you this, in the realmgate wars Bahamut was killed by the Celestint Prime ( he's also kind of resurrecting through King brodd )

[xking]

2 minutes ago, silverstu said:

Well there is dead dead and mostly dead.., I thought Grimnir was shattered not destroyed. I'm not well read on AoS lore, mostly focused on KO,i have to say the world building improved a lot in their book between 1st and 2nd, there was a greater sense of the society generally and I have enjoyed some of the BL short Stories around them too. My sense of of things is that AoS is beginning to mature into a deeper setting. I was a WFB player from 1st ed and that world was so deep and rich but it built up over years. AoS definitely suffered from an awkward initial release and has changed direction since. I hope it will continue to mature but I can see were the problems are, the setting being so big and full of possibilities you need both the overarching story and the smaller, personal tales, WFB was a smaller setting as well so that made it easier as well as being a very settled one. 

Grimnir was indeed shattered, his Essence trapped in gold. But as the fyreslayers use it, they free that essence to once again coalesce. 

[Gitzdee]

14 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Okay your heart’s in the right place but the mere thought of GW making a limited site with poor search qualities that could see their legal teams shut down the Lexicanum as a competitor made my heart skip a beat in terror. 😧 

Seriously people, all you wanting free and detailed lore, just use the bloody Lexicanum and Wiki fans work hard on to update for the current lore.

https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kharadron_Overlords

https://ageofsigmar.fandom.com/wiki/Kharadron_Overlords

(examples because Kharadrons have so much to their background. Feel free to look up Age of Myth and God-beast Zodiac pantheon too among other stuff too!)

This is a good source of information that has already been released. But it is not something GW can use to add information towards building the realms lore. Black Library is good for reading in depth about certain topics and the lexi for reading information. But it would be nice if GW layed out the groundwork or guidelines at least. Kind of what JK Rowling keeps doing on the Wizarding World if that makes any sense. 

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

Maybe I played to much Elden Ring, but I like that even the most powerful figures can kneel in front of a John Doe. Just cut the power-level between gods and normal people. Kill maybe one or two gods to make it clear that the nobody is save.

GW's model of LetMeSoloHer when? 😁

But yeah, kill more gods! 

[Baron Klatz]

For general Realms lore they just need to double down on the Season of War formula and keep releasing more Thondia style tomes for every Realm. Between that, the Core Books and Battletomes now focusing on a realm map it’s quickly getting very fleshed out.(to say nothing of Soulbound’s works)

Though if they ever wanted to release a Mortal Realms Encyclopedia I’d pre-order that on the spot.  

 

[Whitefang]

36 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Mortal Realms Encyclopedia

Encyclopedia for a evolving setting never ends well

[Beliman]

53 minutes ago, xking said:

What is death to a god? Even grimnir is starting to resurrect. Even many of the underworld deities may be returning with nagash temporarily out of the way and with the anvils of the heldenhammer spreading their faith among the underworlds once again.

I think that we are not talking about the same.

When I'm talking about a killing a god, I'm just talking about changing the whole society around that god and break the narrative that they had before that god was killed. 

I don't know if any of you played Dark Souls o Elden Ring. But to put it simple, the lands of this games were plagued with gods. They had entire cities, societies and orders following them and their offspring. But still, some of them died or were killed and that changed all their followers. Some of them become mindless zealots (coff..coff fyreslayers). Others wanted to reach the status of new "gods", knowing that they can be killed. Other wanted to conquer their lands.

That's just an example of how can GW use their AoS gods. The Imperium already had a similar backstory, Fyreslayers and Kharadrons had something like that as their background too.

But AoS is an ongoing narrative, you don't need to use that kind of stories as background, use them as a campaign. BR: Morathi was loved and acclaimed by everybody, just don't stop with  one book, just believe in your work!

[xking]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

GW's model of LetMeSoloHer when? 😁

But yeah, kill more gods! 

melania the blade of miquela was a empyrion

[xking]

19 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I think that we are not talking about the same.

When I'm talking about a killing a god, I'm just talking about changing the whole society around that god and break the narrative that they had before that god was killed. 

I don't know if any of you played Dark Souls o Elden Ring. But to put it simple, the lands of this games were plagued with gods. They had entire cities, societies and orders following them and their offspring. But still, some of them died or were killed and that changed all their followers. Some of them become mindless zealots (coff..coff fyreslayers). Others wanted to reach the status of new "gods", knowing that they can be killed. Other wanted to conquer their lands.

That's just an example of how can GW use their AoS gods. The Imperium already had a similar backstory, Fyreslayers and Kharadrons had something like that as their background too.

But AoS is an ongoing narrative, you don't need to use that kind of stories as background, use them as a campaign. BR: Morathi was loved and acclaimed by everybody, just don't stop with  one book, just believe in your work!

You mean the shattering in Elden ring. I don't know what that has to do with Age of Sigmar, nor do I believe it is suitable for this setting. The gods being around is its thing, it's a Greek,  Norse, Egyptian Clash of the Titans setting.

 

Also you should read up on fyreslayers lore if you think they are Mindless. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by xking

[Beliman]

6 minutes ago, xking said:

You mean the shattering in Elden ring. I don't know what that has to do with Age of Sigmar, nor do I believe it is suitable for this setting. The gods being around is its thing, it's a Greek,  Norse, Egyptian Clash of the Titans setting.

No, I wasn't talking just about one event of one game. It was just an example.

[xking]

I will also note that the gods in Elden ring are not comparable to the gods in age of Sigmar in powerful level. 

radagon and marika are not that powerful compare to say Sigmar who can unleash world-destroying lightning bolts

[KingGatorboy]

1 hour ago, xking said:

I will also note that the gods in Elden ring are not comparable to the gods in age of Sigmar in powerful level. 

radagon and marika are not that powerful compare to say Sigmar who can unleash world-destroying lightning bolts

I would argue that in this universe there is still a sort of order of power of each of them in AOS though. Sigmar is still not stronger than Dracothion and Teclis couldn’t properly make life unlike the all of the other aelven deities of the game. (Not that Teclis isn’t strong)

[Twisted Firaun]

2 hours ago, Beliman said:

I think that we are not talking about the same.

When I'm talking about a killing a god, I'm just talking about changing the whole society around that god and break the narrative that they had before that god was killed. 

I don't know if any of you played Dark Souls o Elden Ring. But to put it simple, the lands of this games were plagued with gods. They had entire cities, societies and orders following them and their offspring. But still, some of them died or were killed and that changed all their followers. Some of them become mindless zealots (coff..coff fyreslayers). Others wanted to reach the status of new "gods", knowing that they can be killed. Other wanted to conquer their lands.

That's just an example of how can GW use their AoS gods. The Imperium already had a similar backstory, Fyreslayers and Kharadrons had something like that as their background too.

But AoS is an ongoing narrative, you don't need to use that kind of stories as background, use them as a campaign. BR: Morathi was loved and acclaimed by everybody, just don't stop with  one book, just believe in your work!

I'm all for exploring a potential Soulsborne scenario in the current setting, perhaps with a faction of undead kings who wish to restore their underworld and gods and breakaway from the tyranny of Nagash......

[CommissarRotke]

8 hours ago, Kadeton said:

There was the opportunity there to make the Stormcast actual heroes. They're hand-selected as the best of all the mortals to fight against Chaos - they should be compassionate, merciful, humble, and vibrant. They're literally angels. Let them show how those virtues can be a source of strength, not the weaknesses that Chaos believes them to be.

 

You... you get me. The fracturing works within the framework of how they're elevated to 'angels' so I don't think they necessarily need to fall to Shyish for faltering, but yeah. They should be allowed to be actual heroes, and show the horrible cost it takes these immortal warriors to defend mortals from Chaos.

As for the post-apoc, a bunch of the fiction shows it like this. 3.0 as a setting is making it even more clear that this is straight up post-apoc Chaos land etc. Baron already went over fiction recs with you I see.

6 hours ago, Kadeton said:

However, first impressions really matter, and if the setting as presented in the sourcebooks

Which sourcebooks? Both 2.0 and 3.0 corebooks paint the setting very well I felt? Definitely did not give me the vibe that Order was in a great position. That being said, GW is definitely failing us as readers.....

16 hours ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

Forcing a Chaos Grand Alliance seems to have intentionally or unintentionally flattened the creative space for Chaos

It didn't need to, like every GA it doesn't need to flatten the creative space. Again comes down to decisions from the top  the GA's being united in purpose makes sense and is a good idea to group factions together for new people.

[CommissarRotke]

5 hours ago, Iksdee said:

World building can also be continued on the community pages and not behind a wall of Black Library books. Some essential pieces of information about characters or a race should not be hidden like that. I would actually like it if they made a Wiki style community page where u can read all the basic information about the Realms and Races/Gods. Someone cant be expected to read all battletomes and books to know whats going on in the game. Things like Thondia and Broken Realms are a good addition imho.

They'd put this behind WH+ though  not that I disagree but this is very much ripe for monetization that would make you go to a fan site anyway. Best way to do this would probably be to have BL authors write stuff for Warcom that leads into a full novel/omnibus/collection, etc. 

[xking]

2 hours ago, KingGatorboy said:

I would argue that in this universe there is still a sort of order of power of each of them in AOS though. Sigmar is still not stronger than Dracothion and Teclis couldn’t properly make life unlike the all of the other aelven deities of the game. (Not that Teclis isn’t strong)

I would say Sigmar is stronger than Dracothion. Gorkamorka knocked  Draconion out with one blow, Sigmar then got into a fight with him for several days straight. This conflict literally alter the geography within part of the realm of beasts.

Edited June 8, 2022 by xking

[xking]

The Teclis vs Nagash fight was cool in broken realms.