A discussion of the lore of AoS after 7 years

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

I don't know, but as a KO player (and KO reader), the game is more about fantasy/sci-fi adventures from the 60s than anything else.

Stormcast and Starborne Seraphon players right there with you!  

 

I’d love them to do a moon colonizing campaign at some point with so much recent focus on the main moons of each Realm.
 

Can’t let the Maggotkin(Ghyran’s rotten moons), NightHaunt and Malerion beat us in the space race.  

But also yeah on the theming bit, I feel like since Broken Realms they’re doing a scatter shot approach to get the “anything goes” theme AoS excels at.

Want high and over-the-top epic fantasy? We got big god fights and space battles in magi-ships galore.

Want heavy metal? Belakor, Morathi-Khaine swimming through a God’s guts and Slaanesh giving birth to hell twins.

You want Bloodborne villager faire? Cursed City/Warhammer Quest and the slew of Witch Hunters while swamp orruks hunt settlers in wild frontiers.

Want Science Fantasy? We got Kharadron fighting Chaos for an orbital laser, mad scientist vampires with Tesla zombies and moon daemons & living shadow stars that float after people. 

Want fantastical peoples focus? The resurrection of a ancient dragon peoples empire battling a god-beast that’s the last of his race and tree people spreading cosmic roots among multiple dimensions to heal the worlds and spread their soul seeds.

AoS doesn’t have a strong central theme but I think a huge boon to it’s skyrocketing success is how it caters to a diverse number of tastes and ideas that fit seamlessly in it’s setting where everything can happen.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[JReynolds]

6 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

Excellent briefing mister! And it's good to see you here again!

May I ask if you feel the same way when writing for 40k？ Or is it better because that setting is more established and seasoned?

40K came with its own obstacles - that it's more established means there are fewer questions a writer might have, but there's also a 'right way to do things' that I often found myself at odds with. With AoS, I was often able to do things and apologize later (see: arch-lector is a woman, order of the fly, everything to do with Gardus, et al.), whereas in 40K it was very much a case of following the well-trod path, at least for me. 

What initially attracted me to AoS was the relative blank canvas the lore provided. I wanted to carve out my own bit of the setting and keep adding to it, rather like Dan has with his Sabbat Worlds Crusade. I figured if three or four of us writers could do that, and reference each other's characters and locations, we could quickly build up some basic texture for the setting - something it badly needed. If several authors mentioned, say, Gravewild or Klaxus, it becomes more fixed in the minds of the readers - more real, if you will. Places like Nuln and Stirland in WHFB have that texture of realness because they were omnipresent in the setting. 

[Bosskelot]

3 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

Are you also comparing the 3.0 blurb to the one 40k's had for decades? I'm trying to find it, but I remember thinking "this one is much closer to 40k's finalized version" seems only fair since I doubt 40k got theirs on the first try.

Just to be crystal clear, and it has kind of been said already, but 40k's blurb was basically nailed on the first try. 

https://imgur.com/rEmGh7Z

Straight from the original RT rulebook from 1987.

As I keep saying, a good idea is immediately good and doesn't need decades of refinement (but the refinement can certainly help).

 

[Whitefang]

25 minutes ago, JReynolds said:

With AoS, I was often able to do things and apologize later (see: arch-lector is a woman, order of the fly, everything to do with Gardus, et al.),

Wait, do you really need to apologize for your work with Order of the Fly and Gardus? I would be really angry at BL/GW to know that, since they are the very thing attracted me to this setting and I still consider them as the top-knot among everything wrote for AOS.

 

25 minutes ago, JReynolds said:

What initially attracted me to AoS was the relative blank canvas the lore provided. I wanted to carve out my own bit of the setting and keep adding to it, rather like Dan has with his Sabbat Worlds Crusade. I figured if three or four of us writers could do that, and reference each other's characters and locations, we could quickly build up some basic texture for the setting - something it badly needed.

Yeah I can totally see that, back in the day, the interactions between your books and those of Robbie and David are the most interesting and joyful bits of the whole IP for me. Every cool boy has a dream to build their own world with their own heroes and villains, who can say not?

Overall it's nice to have you sharing these experience with us, definitely hope you had a better time writing stories for Legend of Five Rings and Zombicide series! 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Whitefang

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

On the very interesting issue of AoS’s lack of a central theme with all the love and respect for the chosen name of this community I think a big part of the issue is The Grand Alliance structure.

While my biggest issue with 40K that as presented (incompetent, corrupt, infighting, etc.) the Imperium wouldn’t have lasted a decade, nonetheless multiple millennia you can understand what role each component serves.  The bulk troops of the Astra Militarum vs the more elite Astartes, for example.  You can even understand a lot of the differences between sub-factions such as the xenos-centric Deathwatch vs the daemon driven Grey Knights.

In 40k the roles of Chaos, both via the traitor legionnaires and the daemons also fill distinct roles, not simply serving as generic interchangeable bad guys.  And each of the Xenos races represents a distinct challenge to the designs of both the Imperium and Chaos as well as a larger ecosystem role.

In contrast I’ve felt the Grand Alliances, with the exception of Nagash-centric and relatively clearly specialized and/or distinctive factions of Death, to feel forced.  Sure, Chaos borrows a lot from 40k meta-structurally but in practice, for me personally while it is the next best after Death in this context it still feels less than cohesive.  Destruction, the Grand Alliance I’ve come to appreciate play why the most is also the most honest in saying at best it’s a marriage of convenience and really, this isn’t one big happy Waaagh!!!

But Order…. Especially as they’re so central to the narrative… it just never adds up to me to anything close to the sum being greater than the parts.  And I do think there are some great parts.    But beyond the fantasy convention of humans, dwarves & elves (in this case super humans, Duardin, and Aelves) aligning to face a common enemy the sheer diversity works against a thematic through line.  Add to this that the diversity doesn’t create significant complimentary differentiation (e.g. it’s not like order keeps those soul stealing IDK around because they’re the “Navy” for the Alliance…) as there is massive overlap in factional competencies. 

Cities tried to reconcile some of this and maybe Dawnbringer Crusade gets them over the hump but with Order serving as the central pivot I wholeheartedly agree it’s hard to create a simple “hook” thematically the way 40k does.

[Baron Klatz]

13 hours ago, Bosskelot said:

As I keep saying, a good idea is immediately good and doesn't need decades of refinement (but the refinement can certainly help).

Counter-point: the huge changes in history that took years to decades of evolution and trial and error to perfect.

This is especially true when you’re on the mostly unexplored frontier of something new.

40k certainly wasn’t perfect from the get-go and had many inspirations to draw from at the time. 
 

I’ve no doubt given the same timeframe of development Age of Sigmar will be just as impressive in all it’s cosmic glory.  
 

Edit: on Grand Alliances I find “not a merry Waaagh” pretty much the point.

Each is an ecosystem within themselves and be fully cohesive that allows each Alliance to grow in an opposing way rather than all go one direction.

Chaos has Skaven and Brayherds that do their own thing away from the big 4.

Death has Flesh Eater Courts & Soulblights that can be independent of Nagash’s control. 

Destruction has Gloomspite that follow the mad moon god away from Gorkamorka’s straight forward might/hunger and now Kruleboyz who are willing to deal with darker powers and be underhanded unlike many other orruks and Ogors who still lean towards their old Order alliance ways of hunting monsters and destroying corruption that threatens Gorkamorka.(thus why the Ogroids were kicked out of Destruction for giving into Chaos)

and Order has it all in abundance as they’re not forces made an organization but disparate survivors banding together that can spearhead into any direction it wants to go be it possible-chaos-mercenary Fyreslayers or lawful evil Khainites. I theorize Dawners will make the Order races closer coalitions(for that Deepkin navy thing) but they’re there to show maximum “alliance of empire builders convenience” that can be shaped anyway a player wants. From shining angel cities of soaring magi-tech skyscrapers to shadowy drug cartel towns with gladiator pits.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[JReynolds]

1 hour ago, Whitefang said:

Wait, do you really need to apologize for your work with Order of the Fly and Gardus? I would be really angry at BL/GW to know that, since they are the very thing attracted me to this setting and I still consider them as the top-knot among everything wrote for AOS.

Initially, I did. My tendency to reuse the Order of the Fly was a minor bone of contention early on. The thinking was it would remind people of Bretonnia, which was (is) a sore point for many in the fanbase. BL wanted to avoid any accusations of mocking the fanbase. I argued that it showed the insidiousness of Chaos and Nurgle in particular - that even a chivalric 'good' society could be corrupted into something vile, but still functional as a society (rather than devolving into roving bands of nomadic cannibals, f'r instance). 

And some of my development for Gardus' personality didn't align well with what the studio had planned for him at the time. The idea of a 'nice guy' Stormcast was surprisingly controversial at the beginning of things. I think that was mainly due to no one being sure whether or not Stormcasts were space marines at the start. We were told to write them as space marines in 1.0, but that changed around the time Plague Garden came out. 

[JReynolds]

57 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

On the very interesting issue of AoS’s lack of a central theme with all the love and respect for the chosen name of this community I think a big part of the issue is The Grand Alliance structure...

I agree with this. The GAs were never really explained in any satisfactory way. I think a few of us tried to show how Order functioned, but it was always difficult because the nature of the component parts kept changing. It's that element of flux I mentioned above.  Death largely avoided it by dint of having Nagash as the top of the pyramid - he's one of the most well-realized characters in WHFB/AoS; with Nagash, what you see is what you get. 

But the others? Destruction was always more a loose classification than an official alliance; Chaos is, well, Chaos. And Order was...everybody else. There are some interesting stories you can tell with that sort of set up, but in the long run it just come across as a bit untidy. 

[novakai]

I didn’t like the fact that they basically classified order as those who build cities and civilization and Destruction are beings who destroy cities and reject civilization. It makes Order too broad and all encompassing but also restricts what can be Destruction too at least that what I always found to be the problem with how they did the GA.

like I don’t mind Order having some questionable armies like DoK or IDK but it also limits what kind of archetype can be in Destruction. I remember in Warhammer age of Reckoning when the forces of destruction where Chaos, Orcs, and Dark elves and there makeup was pretty gnarly back then.

[Baron Klatz]

11 hours ago, JReynolds said:

The idea of a 'nice guy' Stormcast was surprisingly controversial at the beginning of things.

I guess you mean cheery nice. Because it seemed a lot of Stormcasts were nice like Vandus, Ionus Cryptborn and the Bull-hearts like Tarsus who befriended Mannfred and his forces as a whole who spared captured greenskins and parlayed with the vampires in Shyish. 
 

But I guess that’s more stoic niceness? Regardless, happy you were able to make Gardus into who he is and the more light-hearted nature gave us other great characters like Hamilcar and Knight-incantor Arnhault who are very charismatic.  

11 hours ago, JReynolds said:

but in the long run it just come across as a bit untidy. 

Eh, tidier than Order vs Destruction of the past(sorry Novakai). Even now with Blood bowl making teams based on that it causes a lot of players a skeptical look that greenskins & druchii would work together to represent the dark gods. Nevermind undead who are extremely anti-chaos by nature.

I’ve seen way more praise by new comers to the Warhammer franchise that the Grand Alliances dividing Death & Destruction(Gorkamorka) up into it’s own thing is a lot more sensible and makes the faction alliances easier to understand.(Total War has helped with this by making Ogres talk and act just like Orks/Orruks)

Edit: very concise-

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[CommissarRotke]

3 hours ago, derpherp said:

IMO That way of hooking people in is probably why the 40k youtube lore scene is so effective.

 

It always felt like the 40k loretube scene was because no one person can possibly read all of the books and supplements that 40k churns out, so there's always something to talk about and how it relates to or retcons older lore. 

I guess I just find it easier to describe AOS than 40k. It was always easier for me to show someone that opening blurb than try to describe 40k.

[Whitefang]

55 minutes ago, JReynolds said:

I argued that it showed the insidiousness of Chaos and Nurgle in particular - that even a chivalric 'good' society could be corrupted into something vile, but still functional as a society (rather than devolving into roving bands of nomadic cannibals, f'r instance). 

What a based take, kudos to your insistence.

And I think they are really double standard

Considering the fact many Bretonia fans felt mocked by how ghouls were described as delusional nobles and knights in the setting.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Whitefang

[CommissarRotke]

2 hours ago, Bosskelot said:

Just to be crystal clear, and it has kind of been said already, but 40k's blurb was basically nailed on the first try. 

https://imgur.com/rEmGh7Z

Straight from the original RT rulebook from 1987.

As I keep saying, a good idea is immediately good and doesn't need decades of refinement (but the refinement can certainly help).

 

Well then the problem is certainly that GW let the miniatures market lead the game, instead of Black Library and actual writers...

 

53 minutes ago, JReynolds said:

And some of my development for Gardus' personality didn't align well with what the studio had planned for him at the time. The idea of a 'nice guy' Stormcast was surprisingly controversial at the beginning of things. I think that was mainly due to no one being sure whether or not Stormcasts were space marines at the start. We were told to write them as space marines in 1.0, but that changed around the time Plague Garden came out. 

You have my eternal gratitude for helping make the Stormcast characterizations likeable. I don't think I would've jumped into AOS if Stormcast were nothing more than fantasy Space Marines who didn't care about their mortal charges.

 

29 minutes ago, novakai said:

I didn’t like the fact that they basically classified order as those who build cities and civilization and Destruction are beings who destroy cities and reject civilization. It makes Order too broad and all encompassing but also restricts what can be Destruction too at least that what I always found to be the problem with how they did the GA.

 

I have to agree--doesn't the Gloomspite book even have a goblin city on the cover? Destruction shouldn't necessitate rejecting civilization, as there's so many great ideas you could make for goblin and orruk factions!

[frostfire]

52 minutes ago, JReynolds said:

Initially, I did. My tendency to reuse the Order of the Fly was a minor bone of contention early on. The thinking was it would remind people of Bretonnia, which was (is) a sore point for many in the fanbase. BL wanted to avoid any accusations of mocking the fanbase. I argued that it showed the insidiousness of Chaos and Nurgle in particular - that even a chivalric 'good' society could be corrupted into something vile, but still functional as a society (rather than devolving into roving bands of nomadic cannibals, f'r instance). 

This is making me mad at whoever objected this kind of settings. The Order of the Fly is still something that worth MORE stories in the AoS. IMO it is one of the most established Chaos societies till this day and you did it so well convoying your idea in the making of such an interesting good-and-evil concept. It should be discussed more in the AoS. Actually, do you think AoS is the most appropriate place in all these different Warhammer universes to discuss such a topic?

[JackOfBlades]

21 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

I have to agree--doesn't the Gloomspite book even have a goblin city on the cover? Destruction shouldn't necessitate rejecting civilization, as there's so many great ideas you could make for goblin and orruk factions!

I read this as the bias of the Order factions, specifically whichever ones of them the authors consciously or subconsciously imagine to be conveying the narrative of Age of Sigmar to "us" in our world. So Order's tarnishment of the Destruction cultures as rejecting civilisation is a sentiment of and rallying point for those who call themselves Order, not an objective truth.

Of course this might require one to substitute the "plain packaging" of the lore with their own imagination, which may or may not be what you want when talking about introductory material. Personally, i like it this way as it forces you to engage and think. How do you know that an account is completely truthful, simply because it presents itself as authoritative and plays on your passive assumption of it being so?

Edited June 7, 2022 by JackOfBlades

[Baron Klatz]

12 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

doesn't the Gloomspite book even have a goblin city on the cover? Destruction shouldn't necessitate rejecting civilization, as there's so many great ideas you could make for goblin and orruk factions!

Oh that’s a Azyrite city. The implication being the Gloomspite are going to bring their own twisted fairytale heaven to a city of the heavens.

 

Destruction doesn’t really do cities but military structures and Gloomspite asylums. Cities mean relaxation and peace where-as Greenskins and Ogors always want to be on the move or in action with the very forts they build liable to be knocked down:

”When I first came to these lands, I zoggin’ hated ’em,’ Gordrakk rumbled. Urgak flinched in surprise. He hadn’t expected the Fist of Gork to answer – much less to change the subject. ‘Chaos boys that puked everywhere or split in half or laughed when you smashed ’em. Dead gits who snap like twigs. Tree-gits and stunties and pointy ears, all off hidin’. Some of the Chaos boys, they could fight, but it weren’t many. But then, the Hammer God sent his lads.’

Gordrakk’s eyes lit up with a vicious light at the memory.

‘Big armour. Big weapons. Good in a scrap. Zog me, Urgak, dey even came back fer more when you smashed ’em!’ Gordrakk’s green hand crashed against the Megaboss’s shoulder, staggering Urgak. ‘Finally, I thought – ’ere’s a proppa fight. An’ fer a time, that was enough.’

‘An’ den, they let me down,’ Gordrakk seemed almost to sigh. A lesser being might have mistaken the sound for wistfulness. Urgak knew it was frustration. It was always frustration. Smasha and Kunnin’ twitched as the Fist of Gork’s tapped his fingers on their grips.

‘They started buildin’ cities. They started throwin’ about magic. They hid gubbinz in places like this,’ he gestured around the inner sanctum. ‘That’s when I realised, Urgak. The storm lads – they’re just like all da uvvers. Just like every other git not worthy of fightin’ me.’

‘Dere’s gotta be someone out there worthy of gettin’ krumped by you, boss.’

‘The Hammer God.’ “

There’s some outliers like the merchant orruks and bodyguard spider clan of the Kharadron port Toba Lorchai or the Freeguild orruks in the Champions of Destruction Rpg supplement that see temporary service before moving on to other battles. 

 

[JReynolds]

8 minutes ago, frostfire said:

This is making me mad at whoever objected this kind of settings. The Order of the Fly is still something that worth MORE stories in the AoS. IMO it is one of the most established Chaos societies till this day and you did it so well convoying your idea in the making of such an interesting good-and-evil concept. It should be discussed more in the AoS. Actually, do you think AoS is the most appropriate place in all these different Warhammer universes to discuss such a topic?

I think there's greater scope for such discussions in AoS, certainly. Chaos in 40K is largely defined by the Traitor Legions, for good or ill. There's more diversity to the concept in AoS, which allows for more exploration of what it means to serve Chaos and what such a society might look like (i.e. the Warcry factions). 

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

51 minutes ago, JReynolds said:

There's more diversity to the concept in AoS, which allows for more exploration of what it means to serve Chaos and what such a society might look like (i.e. the Warcry factions). 

This!

Forcing a Chaos Grand Alliance seems to have intentionally or unintentionally flattened the creative space for Chaos.  After Destruction Chaos my go to but in part that’s because Chaos is incredibly diversified.  You want the Chaos of civilization look to the mortals of Tzeentch or Slaanesh.  You want the Chaos of destruction I give you Khorne and the Warherds.  The Chaos of nature?  How about Brayherds and Nurgle? And we haven’t even gotten to @Skreech Verminking’s Skaven and all the uniqueness they bring to Chaos.  Or the daemons even. 

There is so much dimensionality to Chaos in AoS that even trying to say it’s not one umbrella but four or five (one for each god and another for undivided?) still sells it short.

Ive gotten in trouble for saying I think Beasts of Chaos would fit better in Destruction as currently structured but it’s NOT because I want to break their link to Chaos but because I feel like it could unlock more of their potential than being stuck as the 4th or 5th narrative option for Chaos.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Beer & Pretzels Gamer

[Kadeton]

Stormcast as Space Marines has to be (in my opinion) one of the worst corporate decisions for an IP. That kind of anti-heroic stuff works great in sci-fi, because it highlights the tension between the power of technology and the dangers of its misuse... it doesn't work so well in fantasy, and rather tends to come across as juvenile.

There was the opportunity there to make the Stormcast actual heroes. They're hand-selected as the best of all the mortals to fight against Chaos - they should be compassionate, merciful, humble, and vibrant. They're literally angels. Let them show how those virtues can be a source of strength, not the weaknesses that Chaos believes them to be.

The flaw of losing pieces of their personality is similarly poorly-conceived, IMO. Yes, it's tragic that they're slowly slipping away, but that doesn't lead to them becoming more interesting characters - quite the opposite! They just become more dull and flat over time. Instead of that, how about showing them constantly struggling to remain heroic? It's difficult to be merciful when your enemies are remorseless killers. It's hard to feel compassion for mortals when they're constantly undone by their own weaknesses. It's tough to stay humble when you're a legendary superhuman warrior. It's exhausting to stay emotionally engaged with mortals when all they do, over and over, is suffer and die. And yet, all those things are worth doing.

And their tragedy would be that at the end of the day, no matter how virtuous a hero they are, nobody can shoulder that burden forever. Eventually, every Stormcast faces something that tips them over the edge into compromising their principles and taking the easy or expedient path, instead of the righteous one. Then, when they die, their souls are no longer virtuous enough to return to Azyr, and they are lost to the underworlds of Shyish instead. Every Stormcast understands that they will eventually falter, because what they are asked to do is impossible... and they do it anyway, for as long as they can, because that's what heroes do.

That's also where I think the setting isn't really post-apocalyptic enough. Yes, Chaos won... at some point in the seemingly distant past. Some areas of the Realms are still a bit manky as a result, but all the fluff suggests that Order is basically back on top - there are large, permanent cities all over the place, well-established trade, even factions launching incursions into the Eightpoints to strike at Chaos at the heart of its remaining strength. The apocalypse is just history, and the rebuilding already happened.

"Mortals and angels fight side-by-side to reclaim magical realms overrun with horrors" would have been a great and compelling sales pitch for the AoS setting, but that doesn't really describe what we ended up with. "Now that Chaos has been beaten back, the callous gods of Order are left to bicker over imagined insults and betray their former allies for the sake of petty revenge" would be closer to the truth.

[Gitzdee]

7 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Stormcast as Space Marines has to be (in my opinion) one of the worst corporate decisions for an IP. That kind of anti-heroic stuff works great in sci-fi, because it highlights the tension between the power of technology and the dangers of its misuse... it doesn't work so well in fantasy, and rather tends to come across as juvenile.

There was the opportunity there to make the Stormcast actual heroes. They're hand-selected as the best of all the mortals to fight against Chaos - they should be compassionate, merciful, humble, and vibrant. They're literally angels. Let them show how those virtues can be a source of strength, not the weaknesses that Chaos believes them to be.

The flaw of losing pieces of their personality is similarly poorly-conceived, IMO. Yes, it's tragic that they're slowly slipping away, but that doesn't lead to them becoming more interesting characters - quite the opposite! They just become more dull and flat over time. Instead of that, how about showing them constantly struggling to remain heroic? It's difficult to be merciful when your enemies are remorseless killers. It's hard to feel compassion for mortals when they're constantly undone by their own weaknesses. It's tough to stay humble when you're a legendary superhuman warrior. It's exhausting to stay emotionally engaged with mortals when all they do, over and over, is suffer and die. And yet, all those things are worth doing.

And their tragedy would be that at the end of the day, no matter how virtuous a hero they are, nobody can shoulder that burden forever. Eventually, every Stormcast faces something that tips them over the edge into compromising their principles and taking the easy or expedient path, instead of the righteous one. Then, when they die, their souls are no longer virtuous enough to return to Azyr, and they are lost to the underworlds of Shyish instead. Every Stormcast understands that they will eventually falter, because what they are asked to do is impossible... and they do it anyway, for as long as they can, because that's what heroes do.

That's also where I think the setting isn't really post-apocalyptic enough. Yes, Chaos won... at some point in the seemingly distant past. Some areas of the Realms are still a bit manky as a result, but all the fluff suggests that Order is basically back on top - there are large, permanent cities all over the place, well-established trade, even factions launching incursions into the Eightpoints to strike at Chaos at the heart of its remaining strength. The apocalypse is just history, and the rebuilding already happened.

"Mortals and angels fight side-by-side to reclaim magical realms overrun with horrors" would have been a great and compelling sales pitch for the AoS setting, but that doesn't really describe what we ended up with. "Now that Chaos has been beaten back, the callous gods of Order are left to bicker over imagined insults and betray their former allies for the sake of petty revenge" would be closer to the truth.

U should have a friendly chat with GW.

[Baron Klatz]

47 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

There was the opportunity there to make the Stormcast actual heroes. They're hand-selected as the best of all the mortals to fight against Chaos - they should be compassionate, merciful, humble, and vibrant. They're literally angels. Let them show how those virtues can be a source of strength, not the weaknesses that Chaos believes them to be.

Tbf they are written that way in the Realmgate Wars. The first book “Gates of Azyr” has a Stormcast kneel down to a scared civilian and take off his helmet to show her he’s not a soulless golem, “Warstorm” has Thostos pretty humble to his new duty as a Stormcast and in awe of a foreign realm(going from Beasts to Metal), and the whole arc of the Bull Hearts first freeing Mannfred from his torture by Chaos and then chasing after him where they parlayed with vampire monks and spared greenskins (their Lord-Relictor even pleading with a Ironjawz that they should be allies while said Brute was shoving his skull-helmed face into the ground) did a lot to show they weren’t Astartes but their own thing as demigod paladins from Heaven.

I think the Astartes focus was more on how they operated, spoke to eachother as “Brother” and general stoicism in the face of insane Chaos forces.(Though second book shows they certainly know fear as that was the Chaos ambush that had an illusion which showed their lost loved ones that made the Stormcasts break rank and even the Judicators panic fire into their own troops when the ambush was at full climax)

I get AoS1 had rocky first steps in establishing the finer details of the setting and unsure of how to move forward but I think it gets bashed way more than it deserves.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Kadeton]

38 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Tbf they are written that way in the Realmgate Wars.

That's really good to hear, and I'm glad the authors managed to inject that level of human interest. I've barely read any AoS fiction, so my impressions are mainly based on what's given in the game manuals (rulebook and battletomes), which are obviously the main studio's output rather than that of the Black Library authors. Unfortunately, I'd imagine those sources are how 99% of players are introduced to the setting, and that's where I'd say the problems lie.

I'll never understand why GW maintains a stable of very competent professional authors (plus a host of freelancers) and then doesn't utilise them to add colour and life to its sourcebooks through stories and vignettes. Or, for that matter, let the authors have much creative input or freedom to build the setting. Josh describing the plan of splitting the realms between the authors and building a sweeping, collaborative patchwork of stories to flesh it out, only to almost immediately be expressly told not to invent anything new, was hard to read.

[Beliman]

Maybe I played to much Elden Ring, but I like that even the most powerful figures can kneel in front of a John Doe. Just cut the power-level between gods and normal people. Kill maybe one or two gods to make it clear that the nobody is save.

[Baron Klatz]

50 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

I've barely read any AoS fiction, so my impressions are mainly based on what's given in the game manuals (rulebook and battletomes),

Definitely grab the Omnibuses then. They’re fantastic for getting a really nice view of the setting through so many short stories that peek into every facet of Mortal Realms life.

Like take your “I wish reforging didn’t take just personality away” complaint. One of many good novel sources is “Sacrosanct and Other Stories” that shows it takes other things away with Knight-Incantor Arnhault. 

He’s super friendly, charismatic and heroic to where he jumps in to both defend a distant village(whose trade is mining from faults opened by a river of burning dragon blood) and tells his troops to hold when they see a young girl perform a ritual to Nagash as he points to an old mural in a temple that showed how the death god was once the God-king’s right hand and those practicing his worship deserve respect.

He’s been reforged “countless times” before though so what did he lose? His memories. 
 

Throughout the story he keeps bringing up his favorite guide book to Ghur and reciting it any time he gets a chance and going on how it’s his dream to one day meet the writer he so admires. At the end of the story his brothers whisper among each other that it’s a secret they don’t have the heart to tell him that He is that scholar that wrote about these lands they’re in. The area around the village was even his mortal birthplace. But he’s forgotten it all and the past him that wrote the guides may as well be a different person now.

Honestly this is why I wish more people around here used IMO or start with “I haven’t read much but from my view” because this is how misinformation gets started. It is what it is though. 🤷 

As has been said before, AoS just needs a good game to get people worked up to actually visit the lexicanum and wikis at the very least instead of being content to go off of limited info. Would solve a lot of problems.

45 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Kill maybe one or two gods to make it clear that the nobody is save.

Monkey’s paw curls and now both Tyrion and Malerion are gone. 😛 (remember how much that one reporter article stressed out the community because they thought Malerion was killed offscreen?)

But nah, I don’t see that as very compelling when less gods means less avenues to explore with worshippers and how the realms are shaped. If anything we need more to expand the cosmic politics and give mortals more choices.

Besides we see with Grimnir that death to a god is usually an inconvenience as long as they have believers that can one day restore their physical form.(not that different from Elden Ring, you’re mostly just killing demigods with the actual “gods” being the assigned avatars of even greater beings we only see the will of)

”What is death to a God? Dust, and less than dust.”

-Dirge of Dust and Steel.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Kadeton]

16 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Honestly this is why I wish more people around here used IMO or start with “I haven’t read much but from my view” because this is how misinformation gets started. It is what it is though. 🤷

I think it's more than fair to point out that things are better over in Black Library land, and I'll definitely check out those Omnibuses. However, first impressions really matter, and if the setting as presented in the sourcebooks is giving the wrong impression, not encouraging people to seek out the deeper lore, and inviting accusations of being shallow and bland, that's GW failing its readers, not them failing GW.