The "mortals redesign" Discussion

[Twisted Firaun]

4 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Aqshy humans definitely have the biggest potential for interesting aesthetics since they mix multiple cultures together.

Hammerhal: Azyrite Greeks, wasteland tribesmen(some former chaos worshippers), super/crazed-religious Europeans garbed in gold(thanks to Azyrites introducing the European look)

Edassa: mix of African & European warrior cultures

Flame Scions: big melting pot of firey samurai, Roman gladiators and African religious warriors.

The main Fire themes orbiting Africa, Rome & Japan can make for some amazing Order humans with their very unique appearance.

 

Could be why all the new battle boxes are Lore-wise set in Aqshy. Set-up for the CoS overhaul in or near 4th edition and a new season of war in the Realm of Fire.

I really enjoy the mixture of Roman Gladiators + *INSERT CULTURE HERE* that AOS has introduced to Chaos via Warcry. It really helps sell the whole "Slaves" part of "Slaves to Darkness." I hope we get a similar mix of Japanese aesthetic with another faction in the near future, perhaps maybe with the upcoming Chaos Dwarfs to make them even more trademarkable/unique to the setting.

[Sception]

Count me as another voice hoping the dawnbringer crusades / CoS rebranding still has a mix of humans, elves, and dwarves, even if the focus is on the humans.  I like the idea of Azyrite civilization incorporating a mix of peoples, to me it helps them stand out both within the AoS setting and from their oldhammer counterparts.

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

If I had my druthers concerning how to frame the mortal populations of Age of Sigmar, I would first hammer home the post-apocalypse nature that most of the Realms are corrupted by Chaos to the point that most humans, aelves, duardin and other races have reverted to a tribal existence not much different from beastmen and Bonesplitterz.  The big exception being many of these tribes don't understand the true nature of Chaos and/or aren't thriving nearly as well.  It's groups of people trying to survive one-day-at-a-time, praying to who ever will listen (which is usually Chaos) and still slowly sinking into extinction in such a savage world.

Beyond the tribal mortals and bandit marauder armies, dotting the landscape are dark kingdoms. Setup by the most powerful of Chaos Lords who no longer  marauder and pillage the Realms to attract the attention of the dark gods.  They cruelty they inflict on peons of their kingdom and the surrounding lands is enough of an engine to stay on the Path to Glory... for now.  Reading the S2D battletome, I wasn't a fan of the faction basically doing what they did in the World-That-Was (WHFB), when basically most of the realms are Chaos Wastes/Shadowlands/Northlands.  Powerful Chaos warriors/sorcerers probably should go all 9th level AD&D Fighter and establish a hold with men-at-arms... but evil.

Finally, I would make certain that the Cities of Sigmar, Hysh, the Dawnstar Crusade, Wildwood Groves, etc. are very much the exception in the Mortal Realms.  Either being bastions that have so far repelled Chaos, secret lands where corruption has not yet found, or small reclaimed lands barely cleared of Chaos' tainted influence.  And all live under the Sword of Damocles. At any moment a massive force of Chaos, Death or Destruction could sweep into these lands and destroy everything and more GA Order aligned mortals have sought to build.

Ultimately, I would want the Age of Sigmar to still very much feel like the Age of Chaos where it is far from ensured that there will be an Age of Sigmar or even Order ever again.  The Age of Chaos may or may not ever come to a close.  And this age does end, it may usher in an Age of Death or an Age of Destruction.  All powers can lay claim to either maintaining or ushering in a new era for the Mortal Realms.  But none can do so with any confidence.

And that's where our games of AoS come in. 

[Dawi not Duardin]

7 hours ago, Saturmorn Carvilli said:

Post-apocalypse galore

Very much in favour of this. Honestly I think Age of Chaos or Mortal Realms would have been better names for the setting than AoS. That would have opened it up to look more weird and wonderful.

[RyantheFett]

I do wonder if it would have been better to focus on one city and some unique cultures one at a time? Or that would have been too much work and going for a generic army with no affiliation was the easier choice?

.......... Of course they did set this human army in only one realm so I really don't know what they are doing lol???? So many questions, hope we get some info soon.

My only fear is that the crusades is just a way to remove all other races except humans and do it in a lore friendly way. I am foolishly still filling out my Cities armies (no humans at least lol) so the sooner they explain what is their plan the better lol.

[JackOfBlades]

2 hours ago, Dawi not Duardin said:

Very much in favour of this. Honestly I think Age of Chaos or Mortal Realms would have been better names for the setting than AoS. That would have opened it up to look more weird and wonderful.

Compared to those, i prefer the name Age of Sigmar for precisely the reason that it creates a good contrast with what might really be going on in the realms.

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, JackOfBlades said:

Compared to those, i prefer the name Age of Sigmar for precisely the reason that it creates a good contrast with what might really be going on in the realms.

For a company that is plagued by favouritism towards space marines, it also brands the entire product line with the god of the fantasy marines (since we now know GW absolutely wanted them to be just that from mr Reynolds).

Branding it to the leader of two of its factions is a bad idea.

[Baron Klatz]

2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

(since we now know GW absolutely wanted them to be just that from mr Reynolds).

He clarified that was only a few of the higher ups and many others pushed for another take especially by Malign Portents.

Besides there’s nothing wrong with branding. Age of Sigmar = Age of Reconquest which AoS has been about from the start of the Realmgate wars and continues with the Dawncrusades while literally everything from Sigmar’s Ghal Maraz, his twin-tailed comet icons to his Stormcast are the iconic images of Warhammer’s fantasy universe:

That’s just solid sense to have something at a glance tell you what franchise it belongs to like Astartes do.

 

That all aside, this lore bit from the new Skaven tome:

”Not long after the onset of the Era of the Beast, seers from the mountain-city of Tempest's Eye sighted banks of ill-looking green stormclouds on the horizon. Kharadron privateers were sent to investigate, only to find themselves swarmed by warp-blimps of the Clans Skryre. Though the duardin fought back stubbornly, they could not stop the true threat: immense warpstone bombs lashed to giganting doomrockets, which arced down to strike Tempest's Eye in a series of catastrophic explosions. Two entire levels of the city were obliterated, while others were dragged into the air on tides of unstable magic. The Battle of Tempest's Eye rages to this day, waged on solid ground and in the warp-ravaged skies above.”

 

So now the city of Tempest’s Eye has been literally ripped in two between the city parts floating in the aether and the city remains on the mountain top that have Kharadron privateers doing their best with their allies to defend both parts of the city in a aether war.

 

Could be just a future set-up of an Season of War flying unit focus in Aqshy or could be the slow move away from the pre-established CoS cities to the 7 new strongpoint ones in each Realm.(in this instance Tempest’s Eye changing hands to the Vindicarum or some other Chamon city heavily mixing freeguilders with Kharadron and a new Stormhost like the change from Anvilgard to Misthavn. I’ll miss the Tempest Lords here as natural noble fliers but I gotta admit Kharadron ships carrying zealous golem-like questors who want to go into hopeless battles so they reforge further as the ships fly alongside sorties of magic Chamon flying swords from the Lord of Blades would be pretty metal)

Tempest Eye’s future could be pretty fun too after Order wins the battle, going from a simple mountain-top skyport to a chained down skyport onto the mountain below as the floating city port is literally held up by a Tempest of magic.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[CommissarRotke]

23 hours ago, Saturmorn Carvilli said:

Ultimately, I would want the Age of Sigmar to still very much feel like the Age of Chaos where it is far from ensured that there will be an Age of Sigmar or even Order ever again.  The Age of Chaos may or may not ever come to a close. 

This SEEMS to be what they wanted to get across with 3.0 -- that the Age of Sigmar is only a small reconquest/liberation of the realms and the rest is still Chaos-held.

23 hours ago, Saturmorn Carvilli said:

Reading the S2D battletome, I wasn't a fan of the faction basically doing what they did in the World-That-Was (WHFB), when basically most of the realms are Chaos Wastes/Shadowlands/Northlands.

So wasteland is what GW is saying the Realms are covered in..? That seems...lazy and placeholdery  especially when Warcry designs are them leaning into less mutative Chaos worship. It makes a little sense in that Chaos has held these places for at least 1000 years, but doesn't really help make an interesting setting if all the land is (Chaos) wastes. I'd think the Realms themselves, being literal magic, would retain their own vibe. Just need to be cleansed/purified/etc.

[Baron Klatz]

8 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

So wasteland is what GW is saying the Realms are covered in..?

Well note that those areas the Marauders are in are just the habitable innerlands still, like the StD tome shows the Aqshy Great Parch and that a good 80% of it is still barbarian controlled.

That’s what Cubicle7 used when mapping out places like Khul’s Ravage.

 

It’s not saying the uncharted parts of the Realms are also wastelands as even Chaos had a hard time expanding that far out when native resistance and supernatural dangers are everywhere like Ghyran’s endless forest continents that extend into tree volcanoes with molten sap and lands that break apart as they teem with new life being birthed and bursting through the ground or Chamon’s countless sub-realms of golden oceans & clockwork moons.

Chaos mostly settles in the safe innerlands, some sub-realms or on moons like Ghyran’s which are infested by Maggotkin. That still leaves a vast majority of the Realms unexplored/untouched and what crazy new lands and races they hold on their infinitely expanding scope.

Edit: oh also we do see Chaos making cities and reusing fortresses to command  and make forceful treaties with the nearby kingdoms and villages around them like in “Hammers of Sigmar” and “Scourge of Fate” 

Edit: oh yeah and “Garden of Mortal Delights” has a Slaanesh island fort in Ghyran focused more on capturing Sylvaneth to grow into exotic fruit trees. Tzaangors also build twisted dark libraries which is why they look down on the others who only destroy civilization.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[CommissarRotke]

20 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Chaos mostly settles in the safe innerlands, some sub-realms or on moons like Ghyran’s which are infested by Maggotkin. That still leaves a vast majority of the Realms unexplored/untouched and what crazy new lands and races they hold on their infinitely expanding scope.

 

This was what I originally thought had happened, thanks for the clarification!

[Twisted Firaun]

22 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Edit: oh also we do see Chaos making cities and reusing fortresses to command  and make forceful treaties with the nearby kingdoms and villages around them like in “Hammers of Sigmar” and “Scourge of Fate” 

Edit: oh yeah and “Garden of Mortal Delights” has a Slaanesh island fort in Ghyran focused more on capturing Sylvaneth to grow into exotic fruit trees. Tzaangors also build twisted dark libraries which is why they look down on the others who only destroy civilization.

This right here has honestly become my favorite bit about AOS in general: the "villainous" factions have clear and understandable supply lines. Nagash and his legions have entire continents that worship him and supply him with arms and armor (however willingly) instead of a few vampires and necromancers securing a small town castle here and there; Chaos now has "crude" civilizations beyond the traditional barbarian tribes. We can see these cities rise and fall throughout the lore as the maps are updated with each edition.

[Asbestress]

Still nothing new regarding the army update, but by taking Hexbane's Hunters as a Crimson Court (which was a Soulblight warband released before the Battletome, and shared a lot of visual similarities with the new range), then I think this kit, alongside the Ven Densts, is probably our best guess what the new range will hopefully look like (or at least the Order of Azyr part of it 😛).

I think this fits the bill of being new and AoS-y, while still carrying that WHFB Empire vibe just a tiny bit. Now to see if we get more steampunk-y...
Hopefully we'll get some sort of update on the range refresh during the summer.

Edit: more clarification

Edited July 11, 2022 by Asbestress

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

58 minutes ago, Asbestress said:

Still nothing new regarding the army update, but by taking Hexbane's Hunters as a Crimson Court (which was a Soulblight warband released before the Battletome, and shared a lot of visual similarities with the new range), then I think this kit, alongside the Ven Densts, is probably our best guess what the new range will hopefully look like (or at least the Order of Azyr part of it 😛).

I think this fits the bill of being new and AoS-y, while still carrying that WHFB Empire vibe just a tiny bit. Now to see if we get more steampunk-y...
Hopefully we'll get some sort of update on the range refresh during the summer.

Edit: more clarification

Some stuff I noticed about their design:

The general look is closer to Jelsen Darrok, the witch hunter from Cursed City, than to the Ven Densts. The warband shares his high collar and angular metal armour. The female member is even standing on a Cursed City pillar.

I also noticed that the female member of thr warband comes with a repeating pistol. It seems like that particular bit of Freeguild gear might stick around.

[Snorri Nelriksson]

MMM....
I like the warband but don't seem too distant to old world empire.
I think some "non-human" elements would have improved the rendition....something like a dark elf torturer or dwarf gunman.
Hoping for some "aosifying" in the project like over-the-top technology for ironweld,more mystical\holy elements to Order of Azyr(i liked the priestess\prophet of Cursed city) and obviously a new look for freeguild.
 

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

MMM....
I like the warband but don't seem too distant to old world empire.
I think some "non-human" elements would have improved the rendition....something like a dark elf torturer or dwarf gunman.
Hoping for some "aosifying" in the project like over-the-top technology for ironweld,more mystical\holy elements to Order of Azyr(i liked the priestess\prophet of Cursed city) and obviously a new look for freeguild.
 

I haven't seen any reason to believe this crusade is inclusive in different species.

[Asbestress]

 

11 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I haven't seen any reason to believe this crusade is inclusive in different species.

I mean, we haven't seen anything to the contrary either.
They even gave a lukewarm answer during the original reveal that there may be other races.

[Flippy]

13 hours ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

I like the warband but don't seem too distant to old world empire.

You are being very nice. This band... the models themselves are ok, I guess, but why even reach for this bland, overused witch hunters trope when there's a whole new world of wonders? What's next? Human pirates band? Forest bowmen band?

[Clan's Cynic]

11 minutes ago, Flippy said:

You are being very nice. This band... the models themselves are ok, I guess, but why even reach for this bland, overused witch hunters trope when there's a whole new world of wonders? What's next? Human pirates band? Forest bowmen band?

People like Witch Hunters, plus it's one of the more iconically 'Warhammer' concepts.

None would doubt Crimson Court sold like hotcakes despite being 'bland, overused Vampire tropes'.

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, Asbestress said:

 

I mean, we haven't seen anything to the contrary either.
They even gave a lukewarm answer during the original reveal that there may be other races.

I do love the idea of Cities as a cosmopolitan melting pot, but dawnbringers is just a tired old religious cliché, and I think the evasive answers about the rest is them not wanting to bear bad news.

[Flippy]

54 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

People like Witch Hunters, plus it's one of the more iconically 'Warhammer' concepts.

None would doubt Crimson Court sold like hotcakes despite being 'bland, overused Vampire tropes'.

It is an Oldhammer concept, and rightly so; witch hunters belong in late medieval Holy Roman Empire. We can have humans who seek and fight the taint of Chaos, but they don't have to make the same fashion statement every time.

Crimson Court? Good models, weak concept. Fan service.

[Snorri Nelriksson]

7 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I do love the idea of Cities as a cosmopolitan melting pot, but dawnbringers is just a tired old religious cliché, and I think the evasive answers about the rest is them not wanting to bear bad news.

They can't change the whole cities concept though.
But who knows....it would not makes sense to eliminate elves or dwarves from cities.
Even if gw wants to squat the whfb leftovers they could still finally make some azyrite\Sigmarite dwarves and elves that worship Sigmar and the pantheon, and the whole religious thing should just be expanded to them (dawnrbinger crusades uses the help of DOK even so...).

[Baron Klatz]

Won’t lie. I’m quite flummoxed where this “If you’re a Sigmar zealot then you hate everything non-human” idea is coming from.

We’ve got the God-king who even after being betrayed still seeks diplomatic solutions with both Nagash and Gorkamorka to return them to the pantheon as he also called a truce with Morathi-Khaine(even before Grungni vouched for her he called off the attack on Har Kuron because he knew a civil war was just what Belakor wanted to destroy Order). And he spares God-beasts that aren’t a threat and allows their worship like in Edassa and those that can’t control their violence are put to work in protecting Stormvaults.

 

Lower we have the Stormcasts who are diplomats and erstwhile allies to all gods, god-beasts and races and jumped to work with Ironjawz to reconquer the Eight-Points, tried their best to save Behemat from madness, take in Reclaimed tribes of repentant chaos worshippers & reforged former chaos champions and worked alongside Neferata and the undead to save Shyish from Chaos.

 

And people now think that all dries up at the ground level mortals who are constantly shown to admire and follow their shining Stormcast lords into making Sigmar’s dream of a United pantheon and peace among all races and Realms again a reality?

 

Like heck, why am I hearing “maybe some aelves will fit in if they worship Sigmar” when we’ve got dozen of examples of humans worshipping duardin and aelven gods in Cities right down to the Sigmarite warpriests themselves:

https://cubicle7games.com/aos-soulbound-excelsior-warpriest/
“Devoted of Sigmar

You are a warrior-priest of the God-King, willing to do anything in the name of your divine liege.

The Mortal Realms are huge, and there are times when the high throne of Azyr can feel very far away indeed. The Excelsior Warpriest is the most zealous of Sigmar’s devoted, gladly carrying the word of the God-King to places that have not felt the light of Sigendil in generations. The miracles that an Excelsior Warpriest can perform vary depending on the proclivities of the individual priest and, to a decidedly lesser extent, on the needs of the mission in question. With the power of faith alone a warpriest can heal the sick and the lame, but just as easily scour the life of the tainted, the possessed and the wicked of spirit. While predominantly a product of the Sigmarite faith, the culture of Azyr has marched into the Mortal Realms with its armies and put down roots with its settlers. Hammerhall-Ghyra is known to harbour warpriests devoted to Alarielle, while groups dedicated to Tyrion the Blind King scour the hinterlands of Hysh. Doubtless there are many such groups in the Mortal Realms carrying the light of their gods on the flat of a war hammer in the example of the Excelsior Warpriest.”

 

I don’t see a single reason to worry. Even if Cities cranks up the Sigmar zeal craziness to 12 that just means they’re devoted to a God-king who wants more peace and friendly mixing among the gods, their followers & countless races of the Realms.

On 6/22/2022 at 8:51 AM, Loyal Son of Khemri said:

This right here has honestly become my favorite bit about AOS in general: the "villainous" factions have clear and understandable supply lines. Nagash and his legions have entire continents that worship him and supply him with arms and armor (however willingly) instead of a few vampires and necromancers securing a small town castle here and there; Chaos now has "crude" civilizations beyond the traditional barbarian tribes. We can see these cities rise and fall throughout the lore as the maps are updated with each edition.

100%!

some of my favorite bits is Archaon starting Warcry in the first place because both the All-Gates defeat and Necroquake destabilized the Nexus leaving valuable Chaos kingdoms & empires stranded so he’s doing a rally cry to consolidate their power(like Iron Golems taking notes on the massive catacomb industry complexes to upgrade their own dragon forces at home) while the recent Fyreslayers battletome shows how Blood knights might make war with the Deathrattle kingdoms so they can clear land to set up human blood-thrall villages to sustain their numbers.

 

And I love the lore that Ossiarchs prefer easier to supply and patrol land empires so though they have navies they prefer to just summon porous bone artificial landmasses so they can just connect their empires and conquests across oceans for quicker transports and troop movements(ships got nothing on bone golems who can force March night and day without food or rest).

 

”The Ossiarch Empire has a large navy containing ships grown from processed bone-matter but for the empire to function at maximum efficiency they have developed the art of crafting wide structures of porous osseous matter that float. Grown one by one and linked through the magic of the Mortisans they connect landmasses across vast oceans”

Edited July 12, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[zilberfrid]

3 hours ago, Snorri Nelriksson said:

They can't change the whole cities concept though.
But who knows....it would not makes sense to eliminate elves or dwarves from cities.
Even if gw wants to squat the whfb leftovers they could still finally make some azyrite\Sigmarite dwarves and elves that worship Sigmar and the pantheon, and the whole religious thing should just be expanded to them (dawnrbinger crusades uses the help of DOK even so...).

They could. They could also dump the remainder of Cities after they take the humans out and reshuffle a few kits with some life in them. How many warscrolls are in more than one unit?

As for why I think the Dawnbringer crusade will not have any nonhumans?

- It would be easy to write.

- Apart from Stormcast, no nonhumans with models are followers of Sigmar, and all Stormcast souls are harvested from humans.

- I really dislike crusades, and they are not usually done with people wanting to have a peaceful conversation with people.

[xking]

"peaceful conversation" 

I'm sure that'll work with all the daemons who want to devour all reality or the insane lich god that wants to extinguish all life.