The "mortals redesign" Discussion

[xking]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

Wtf, everything about this post is wrong!

It's just his opinion.

[Baron Klatz]

It’s Doko, he always goes on exaggeration tantrums. Just ignore and move on until he finally reaches his limit and posts a big “Why I’m leaving and the hobby is doomed x 99999!” post. 😛 

 

Also interesting thought. I wonder if Dispossessed and City Aelves might get grouped and rebooted under Ironweld(who basically are duardin central anyway with all the engineers, mechanics, masons and mining operations there) and Aelven Exiles.

The latter because Soulbound’s Ulfenkarn archetype is gonna be called that and it’s a name title given more attention in the Prince Maesa omnibus as he’s a exile aelf prince.

If Cities of Sigmar focuses mainly on Wanderers(exiles from Ghyran) and Darklings/Scourge Privateers(exiles from most upright societies) I could see it along with why they don’t fully submit to the main aelven gods like Alarielle or Morathi-Khaine but keep their independence in the cities.

Could help organize things under Humans, Ironweld Duardin and Aelven Exiles.

[NinthMusketeer]

28 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

It’s Doko, he always goes on exaggeration tantrums. Just ignore and move on until he finally reaches his limit and posts a big “Why I’m leaving and the hobby is doomed x 99999!” post. 😛 

 

Also interesting thought. I wonder if Dispossessed and City Aelves might get grouped and rebooted under Ironweld(who basically are duardin central anyway with all the engineers, mechanics, masons and mining operations there) and Aelven Exiles.

The latter because Soulbound’s Ulfenkarn archetype is gonna be called that and it’s a name title given more attention in the Prince Maesa omnibus as he’s a exile aelf prince.

If Cities of Sigmar focuses mainly on Wanderers(exiles from Ghyran) and Darklings/Scourge Privateers(exiles from most upright societies) I could see it along with why they don’t fully submit to the main aelven gods like Alarielle or Morathi-Khaine but keep their independence in the cities.

Could help organize things under Humans, Ironweld Duardin and Aelven Exiles.

Hm, this seems at odds with your response from last page talking about cities being inclusive to different variations and archetypes. Why suddenly be exclusive when it comes to religion?

Not that I find either opinion to be anything but respectable, they just seem to go opposite directions to me.

Edited June 10, 2022 by NinthMusketeer

[Beliman]

On 6/10/2022 at 8:19 AM, xking said:

It's just his opinion.

He made three points but only one was his opinion:

• AoS 2.0/3.0 with free summons is bad compared to AoS 0.0 - FALSE.
  Anyone remember the infinite summon mechanics that Death had? Anyone remember that we didn't have points until mid 2016? Anyone remember the "wound count" armies? 
  I lost a battle playing my Wanderers/Wood Elfs vs GA: Death. Death ended with 3800p on the table.
• Unbalance between armies is crazy in AoS 2.0/3.0 - FALSE.
  I'm not going to talk again about playing without points or counting wounds to try to play a balanced game, but anyone remember that Extremis Chamber supplement? 3+save that hit like a truck in an age that people had 1 or 2 attacks per model with a 4+/4+ profiles... 
• The new armies are ugly.
  That's an opinion. But he is right, everything looks bad in front of any Kharadron kit. But don't be too harsh with the new models, they are not that bad.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Beliman

[Baron Klatz]

51 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Why suddenly be exclusive when it comes to religion?

Oh it’s not exclusive but rather more options than the singular, that’s what I meant by fully.

Like how the Phoenicium city aelves worship the Ur-Phoenix God-beast and can have faith alongside Alarielle since it dwells in her realm while also being religious towards Tyrion/Teclis as the Ur-Phoenix gets reborn in a crystal valley in Hysh rather than say how Sylvaneth or Lumineth are purely devoted to one set of gods.
 

Same as how city aelves could lean towards Grungni as a smith god to learn from(probably exile worthy behavior from a Lumineth’s egocentric view) or Ironweld Duardin can create plant guns and even take a nod from the Root-king duardin in forging Sylvaneth soul-pods and paying respects to Alarielle. 
 

Of course this all just theory-crafting until we see where GW land on the final product. I imagine global crisis that’s changed production schedules and how they need to rearrange focus on releases probably caused a world of difference from back in 2017 when they said they wanted to make humans from each Realm. (I kinda wonder if they’ll just do Devoted of Sigmar+ to callback the AoS1 days of when it was just them and Stormcasts  fighting Chaos to reclaim civilization through crusades. I dare not hope for something like multiple supplements on each realm that all eventually fit together like a Thondia Reclaimed guard update and then a Hammerhal gold cloak one for Aqshy, etc.)

4 minutes ago, Beliman said:

That's an opinion. But he is right, everything look bad in front of any Kharadron kit. But don't be too harsh with the new models, they are not that bad.

An opinion worth it’s weight in Aether-gold.  ⛅️ 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[RyantheFett]

Wish we would have gotten an outline by now. Looking at all these comments I just realized how little we really know. Shame as well since I do want to expand my Cities army, but the risk is just too great right now that any unit would just be removed from the roster.

Think I am leaning for the full destruction of the Cities faction with each race being put into another order faction. I know some work better then others, but some of these factions really need new units.

• Dawnbringer Crusades - Stormcast Eternals
• Dispossessed - Fyreslayers/Kharadron Overlords
• Wanderers- Sylvaneth
• Darkling Covens- Daughters of Kaine
• Scourge Privateers- Idoneth Deepkin
• Phoenix Temple - Lumineth Realm-Lords

All that really leaves is Order Serpentis and Shadowblades, but the rumors of the new shadow elf faction would work for them.

Edited June 10, 2022 by RyantheFett

[NinthMusketeer]

It is worth pointing out that we have a really diverse array of mortal inhabitants of the realms, complete with a variety of cultures from different realms and regions, with different interpretations of faith and manners of combat--for Chaos. Most of the realms are still held by Chaos; all of those Warcry bands represent regular people just as much as inhabitants of the free cities.

Obviously not quite the same thing as the topic at hand, but not entirely separate either.

[Baron Klatz]

That’s a good to point out. CoS needs to explore it’s own diverse mortal religions in the future like one past short story that had blind human warrior monks in a Aqshy valley that worshipped Tyrion or the city of Edassa in the middle of the Great Parch that worships both Sigmar and the nearby fire God-beasts that prowl the region.

Another point of note I hope they address one day is giving CoS their own Realm Native non-human races to parallel the realm beast people Slaves to Darkness has.

if I had to go down a twisted mirror list:

Fomoroids - Gholemkin (the stone race of people that are noted to hang out in Chamon ports already. Strong bois)

Sphiranx - Cogmen(the Chamonian mechanical race created by Grungni before he abandoned them for other pursuits. A  analytical race to make up for their lack of numbers)

Ogroid - Aetar(very powerful astral eagle people in the Ghur peaks. Despite being giant birds they wear armor and jewelry and are said to even out-duel a Knight-Venator in the skies)

Centauroid - Valay(the secretive squid smiths that live at the depths beside the Deepkin, they collect and forge realmstone from the sea floor and like to play deadly word games)

or alternatively Silent People nomads. A few of the insect people that broke off from their migratory swarms to live in catacombs beneath cities. Matches the Centauroid as both sport multiple arms and are a very rare sight too.

[Lord Krungharr]

1 hour ago, Baron Klatz said:

 

Centauroid - Valay(the secretive squid smiths that live at the depths beside the Deepkin, they collect and forge realmstone from the sea floor and like to play deadly word games)

or alternatively Silent People nomads. A few of the insect people that broke off from their migratory swarms to live in catacombs beneath cities. Matches the Centauroid as both sport multiple arms and are a very rare sight too.

WTF?!  Those would all be amazing!  I'd sell my Gargants and half my Beasts of Chaos and 30k to have squid-smiths as an army.

[derpherp]

What seems most likely is that there is a human centric faction being created that is separate from CoS because AoS has too many bloody elves and too few humans. I suspect a possible new human faction could live in the cities, and may have a scattering of other races in its ranks, perhaps for specific things like siege or magic, but is mostly human, humans who like the dawnbringer crusade judging by the heavy emphasis on that on the community page.

I don't see the CoS faction being squatted or turned all human, although probably restructured. The CoS might even gain more races/units if the Old World is anything like the Horus Heresy where some units can be taken across to 40k. CoS would be good for getting suitable playable Old World units that don't fit into any other AoS factions.

I'm fine with a new grimdark religious zealot crusading/colonising human faction. Grimbright is fine, but that doesnt mean every human faction has to be that way, and no it doesnt "ruin" everything ever, or mean that every faction is going to become grimdark. 

That said, I don't think that's what we will be getting. 

My guess is that they will be non-grimdark explorers and colonists, it says "building a sanctuary against the darkness" on the video on that community page which is quite heroic, and perhaps they will be partially themed like spanish conquistadors. Pretty normal medieval earth human stuff with the exception that they are facing powerful monsters in the wild. The "unlike anything you've seen before!" stuff I think might be referring to the caravan vehicle part of the dawnbringer crusades, meaning they get large vehicles, like Kharadron airship sized, but on land, basically large vehicles that units can stand on.

Giant caravans/land ships as their set piece unit would be a really tempting choice if I was designing an army related to the dawn bringer crusades, so that's what I bet is coming. 😁

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by derpherp

[NinthMusketeer]

Dam straight that AoS has too many elves!

[zilberfrid]

15 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Dam straight that AoS has too many elves!

Lumineth: 22 unique kits.

Idoneth: 11 unique kits

Cities (among factions): 17 (not counting black riders)

Daughters: 8 unique kits

Total elves: 48

I thought Sylvaneth were too different to include.

Fyreslayers: 9 unique kits.

Kharadron: 12 unique kits.

Disposessed: 4 unique kits

Ironweld: 2 unique kits

Total: 27 unique kits

This was a manual count, so I'm not sure

[derpherp]

4 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Lumineth: 22 unique kits.

Idoneth: 11 unique kits

Cities (among factions): 17 (not counting black riders)

Daughters: 8 unique kits

Total elves: 48

I thought Sylvaneth were too different to include.

Fyreslayers: 9 unique kits.

Kharadron: 12 unique kits.

Disposessed: 4 unique kits

Ironweld: 2 unique kits

Total: 27 unique kits

This was a manual count, so I'm not sure

imo Sylvaneth are more than elf enough to include. Their queen is one of the elfiest elves in AoS.

Mountain. Ocean. Edgelord. Forest.

Desert elves are probably next.

Someone in the studio must just really like elves.

Edited June 12, 2022 by derpherp

[Baron Klatz]

4 hours ago, derpherp said:

imo Sylvaneth are more than elf enough to include. Their queen is one of the elfiest elves in AoS.

I’d just count their God-Queen Alarielle and the 5 Kurnothi models(despite their beastly parts & stomach seed lamentiri) due to having actual flesh.

Sylvaneth Revenants and Tree Spirits only take on the appearance of aelves to ease their allies. They can go full eldritch nature horror if they wanted.

4 hours ago, derpherp said:

Desert elves are probably next.

Oh that’s already Lumineth with the Realm of Light being full of deserts and, being the main sun of the setting for lands without their own, is constantly bright daylight or timid twilight. That’s why they wear those puffy Arabic pants and garbs along with the super tall hats to ward off the 30/7* solar heat and why the Hedonites there went full Persian garb.

*(there’s between 26 to 30 hours a day in the Realms that fluctuates depending on how quickly Ulgu & Hysh cycle eachother)

[NinthMusketeer]

Source for that info on Hyshian deserts & Lumineth/Hedonite garb? Not intending to express doubt, I just want to go read it.

[Lord Krungharr]

Ugh, I would hate being in Hysh!  Such loathsome constant brightness, and heat.  

On 6/11/2022 at 2:20 AM, derpherp said:

 

My guess is that they will be non-grimdark explorers and colonists, it says "building a sanctuary against the darkness" on the video on that community page which is quite heroic, and perhaps they will be partially themed like spanish conquistadors. Pretty normal medieval earth human stuff with the exception that they are facing powerful monsters in the wild. The "unlike anything you've seen before!" stuff I think might be referring to the caravan vehicle part of the dawnbringer crusades, meaning they get large vehicles, like Kharadron airship sized, but on land, basically large vehicles that units can stand on.

Giant caravans/land ships as their set piece unit would be a really tempting choice if I was designing an army related to the dawn bringer crusades, so that's what I bet is coming. 😁

 

If there will be transport vehicles that could like Land Raiders for Dwarves.....no no I can't get hopeful about such things.  That would be too amazing.  Wondering if I should keep my Steam Tank or sell it.  Hard to say if the old Cities models will stay meh, or get any warscroll love in the near future.  If they make new models then those will get the juicy rules.

[Baron Klatz]

12 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Source for that info on Hyshian deserts & Lumineth/Hedonite garb? Not intending to express doubt, I just want to go read it.

Well on the garb that’s mostly the models as many people note what their clothes represent. Also likely done for another mirror to eachother since Hedonites & Lumineth have so many units and flamboyant traits in common from being influenced by Slaanesh(even Teclis’ rebirth of them & aetherquartz scrubbing their souls can’t erase being in it’s guts for 10,000+ years)

On Hysh’s deserts those are tidbits all over the place like the new Stormcast battletome having a story of a Tempest Lord Retributor finding tribes of his people in the Xintil deserts(the central mega-continent Teclis & Tyrion live on) where he raised them up from tribes to organized militaries to batter down the Khornite kingdoms there.

Mostly the Lumineth battletome and Soulbound books dealing with Lumineth will be helpful:

“The Alumnians are unparalleled explorers among the Great Nations. They strive to emulate the legend of Tyrion as he journeyed across the Luminaris Sea to the searing landscape of Xintil, gaining great insight in return for his eyesight.”

“The Syari are one of the so called Teclian nations who primarily base their culture on the teachings of Teclis, being adept at manipulating the energy of Hysh. 

The capital of their domain is the city of Ar-Ennascath, where a yearly competition of craftmanship is held. It is surrounded by wastes among which prowl dangers from the time of the Ocari Dara, such as hellish sentient chasms and time-warping predator-spells.”

“Plain of Sigils: Each new dawn these vast salt plains are swept into ridges and dunes that, from above, form the sigils of Lord Pha's hermetic priesthood, granting boons to those who prove worthy.”

Thus why Hysh art tends to be so sandy & dry.

 

12 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Ugh, I would hate being in Hysh!  Such loathsome constant brightness, and heat.  

Yeah, there’s a reason the Flesh-Eater Tome has a Aqshy sub-faction that worships Hysh as a realm of purified Fire compared to their own. 
 

Best places to escape the heat would be either Ymetrica with it’s soaring mountains and nature spirits making the lands greener or Zaitrec whose lunar magic allows the nation to experience night to commune with the moons(even if the whole continent still glows from all the magic there). There’s also braving the Iliatha matriarch nation and it’s inner volcanoes as the coastlines around it are shown to be cold and barren.

Also I say keep the Steamtank. Worst comes to worse you can always kitbash it into something else like take the wheels off and put it on the floating Lumineth shrine as an adhoc “Megalith Tank” your Dawners put together to defend their new town with Kharadron ally rules.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[NinthMusketeer]

Oh, it was just assumption. Letdown...

[CommissarRotke]

9 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Thus why Hysh art tends to be so sandy & dry.

 

Lumineth art always makes me want them, then I see the actual models and know I wouldn't want to paint them bc of all the greeblies 😭

[Lord Krungharr]

14 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Well on the garb that’s mostly the models as many people note what their clothes represent. Also likely done for another mirror to eachother since Hedonites & Lumineth have so many units and flamboyant traits in common from being influenced by Slaanesh(even Teclis’ rebirth of them & aetherquartz scrubbing their souls can’t erase being in it’s guts for 10,000+ years)

On Hysh’s deserts those are tidbits all over the place like the new Stormcast battletome having a story of a Tempest Lord Retributor finding tribes of his people in the Xintil deserts(the central mega-continent Teclis & Tyrion live on) where he raised them up from tribes to organized militaries to batter down the Khornite kingdoms there.

Mostly the Lumineth battletome and Soulbound books dealing with Lumineth will be helpful:

“The Alumnians are unparalleled explorers among the Great Nations. They strive to emulate the legend of Tyrion as he journeyed across the Luminaris Sea to the searing landscape of Xintil, gaining great insight in return for his eyesight.”

“The Syari are one of the so called Teclian nations who primarily base their culture on the teachings of Teclis, being adept at manipulating the energy of Hysh. 

The capital of their domain is the city of Ar-Ennascath, where a yearly competition of craftmanship is held. It is surrounded by wastes among which prowl dangers from the time of the Ocari Dara, such as hellish sentient chasms and time-warping predator-spells.”

“Plain of Sigils: Each new dawn these vast salt plains are swept into ridges and dunes that, from above, form the sigils of Lord Pha's hermetic priesthood, granting boons to those who prove worthy.”

Thus why Hysh art tends to be so sandy & dry.

 

Yeah, there’s a reason the Flesh-Eater Tome has a Aqshy sub-faction that worships Hysh as a realm of purified Fire compared to their own. 
 

Best places to escape the heat would be either Ymetrica with it’s soaring mountains and nature spirits making the lands greener or Zaitrec whose lunar magic allows the nation to experience night to commune with the moons(even if the whole continent still glows from all the magic there). There’s also braving the Iliatha matriarch nation and it’s inner volcanoes as the coastlines around it are shown to be cold and barren.

Also I say keep the Steamtank. Worst comes to worse you can always kitbash it into something else like take the wheels off and put it on the floating Lumineth shrine as an adhoc “Megalith Tank” your Dawners put together to defend their new town with Kharadron ally rules.

Guess it's like Florida, can always come out at night, or stay by the coastal breezes.

You've changed my mind, I shall keep the Steam Tank....and maybe get 4 more.  3 for battleline, 1 for a converted Luminark.  Then I'll be ready for a mechanized expedition...and can still fit Gotrek and a Cogsmith or two, plus my converted Hurricanum, in 2K.  

[Twisted Firaun]

One thing I really want to see with the Cities update is a “reverse chaos” aesthetic. It’s obvious  that each chaos faction has a clear real world culture/myth/stereotype that heavily impacts their design: Slaanesh and Tzneetch are an orientalist’s nightmare of Middle East/Asia and Ancient Egypt, Khorne is every stereotype of Vikings, Nurgle is a strange mix of Arthurian knights and pirates at the moment, and then we have the minor gods like Hashut, whose worshippers are industrialized Babylonians, and the Skaven who’re all over the place. Let’s see the cultures of the realms that the gods twisted to get their looks. 

[CommissarRotke]

15 hours ago, Loyal Son of Khemri said:

Let’s see the cultures of the realms that the gods twisted to get their looks. 

HOPEFULLY much, much more than HRE-but-fantasy and Faux France. Would seriously love to see (Middle) Eastern designs for Order* as well. 

 

*that aren't Lumineth  

[Twisted Firaun]

11 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

HOPEFULLY much, much more than HRE-but-fantasy and Faux France. Would seriously love to see (Middle) Eastern designs for Order* as well. 

 

*that aren't Lumineth  

You’re preaching to the choir mate. As and Egyptian American Muslim (who finally got to go to Egypt and Turkey this year (best summer vacation ever)) I want to be able to field an army of fantasy versions of The Middle East that aren’t chaos or undead. One AOS army that sticks out to me is the nation or Baatar, who have a floating city in Asqhy and trade via a fantasy version of the Silk Road. Let’s see those guys get developed into a table top faction.

[Marcvs]

19 minutes ago, Loyal Son of Khemri said:

You’re preaching to the choir mate. As and Egyptian American Muslim (who finally got to go to Egypt and Turkey this year (best summer vacation ever)) I want to be able to field an army of fantasy versions of The Middle East that aren’t chaos or undead. One AOS army that sticks out to me is the nation or Baatar, who have a floating city in Asqhy and trade via a fantasy version of the Silk Road. Let’s see those guys get developed into a table top faction.

I am rooting for the city of Edassa for the same spot!

[Baron Klatz]

Aqshy humans definitely have the biggest potential for interesting aesthetics since they mix multiple cultures together.

Hammerhal: Azyrite Greeks, wasteland tribesmen(some former chaos worshippers), super/crazed-religious Europeans garbed in gold(thanks to Azyrites introducing the European look)

Edassa: mix of African & European warrior cultures

Flame Scions: big melting pot of firey samurai, Roman gladiators and African religious warriors.

The main Fire themes orbiting Africa, Rome & Japan can make for some amazing Order humans with their very unique appearance.

 

Could be why all the new battle boxes are Lore-wise set in Aqshy. Set-up for the CoS overhaul in or near 4th edition and a new season of war in the Realm of Fire.