The "mortals redesign" Discussion

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

A xenophobic army of just humans led by a God figure fighting against untold horrors in order to expand and protect their lands. The army is full of skulls and Gothic style as the humans get slaughtered in large numbers making a very dark story. In order to even the odds the God made super soldiers............ feel like I have seen this story somewhere lol.

The idea of them removing the many races from cities just seem so strange, but from a cutthroat business perspective I guess it makes sense. The faction was just a place holder and with The Old World coming out fans of classic factions will have to go play them there. The name change allows past lore to stay canon, but still redo everything of the faction.

I am hopeful that I am 100% wrong here and that they will tell us soon one way or another.

I can say that even though I am currently super positive about that the future might hold for Dawnbringers, if they actually become the Imperium of Sigmar and all the Cities fluff I have been getting invested in since the battletome came out not even three years ago gets hard reset, I will probably drop the game of AoS completely. The setting would be entirely too loose-weave for me. I just could not take any plot developments seriously at that point.

[xking]

29 minutes ago, Deepkin said:

The imperium isn't fascist, it's a theocratic feudal society in space. Still a monstrous society, but not fascist. 

That there are protagonists from this society doesn't make it propaganda. Or is Game of Thrones propaganda for pseudo-medieval feudalism as well? Is Gideon the Ninth propaganda for interstellar necromantic theocracy? Etc. 

Depiction isn't endorsement. The Imperium is widely depicted (still) as the worst regime imaginable. It's so terribly conservative and dogmatic, it's starships use slave gangs to load weapons instead of autoloaders (a technology we have now). It stacks person on person into cancer-ridden, horror-mountains and calls them "hive cities." It works planets to death and then uses their corpses as mulch for farming. It births children, kills them and resurrects their corpses as flying servitors for...aesthetic reasons? It takes little boys, pumps them full of hormones and literal hypnotic indoctrination, tells them they're gods Angels of death and then unleashes them upon the galaxy...who then routinely go mad and betray their Imperium and become it's direst foes. Even when they don't, they routinely genocide their own populations, etc. 

All this stuff is still in the background. Foregrounded, even. If you think any of that is meant to make you identify with the faction, then I don't know what to say. I think the background still does what it always did: takes the hellish results of absolute conservatism and faith to their obvious, awful conclusions. That there are still sympathetic characters heightens the irony and tragedy. Their individual morality changes nothing: they work within a doomed system, doomed from it's inception by the hubris of it's founder.

Yeah, 30k/40K should not be taken serious. It was always meant to be over the top, ridiculous. Because it's meant to be grimdark, so everything is the worst possible way it could possibly be. I mean the emperor was a violent Warlord who enforce atheism and went around committing genocide on other species and killing any who disagree with him. He then nearly died, people started worshipping him and the Imperium continue to do what he was already doing. Being a bunch of ******.

This is all because everything has to be the Grim darkest of the Grim Darkness.

Edited May 6, 2022 by xking

[xking]

11 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I can say that even though I am currently super positive about that the future might hold for Dawnbringers, if they actually become the Imperium of Sigmar and all the Cities fluff I have been getting invested in since the battletome came out not even three years ago gets hard reset, I will probably drop the game of AoS completely. The setting would be entirely too loose-weave for me. I just could not take any plot developments seriously at that point.

I don't think that's going to happen at all. Someone in the rumor thread said this based on what they we're saying in the Stream.

Based on humans (grounded people) but they didn't deny that it could be other races too (answering a twitch-chat question).

Edited May 6, 2022 by xking

[Pariah7echo]

21 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I wonder about the other Cities subfactions. At some point, my prediction was that Cities would be handled like Legions of Nagash. What I mean by that is that I believed the individual subfactions would become armies of their own or reintegrated like they were in Fantasy: Dispossessed into a new mixed dwarf faction, Wanderers into Sylvaneth, Dark Elves into DoK/Malerion...

I'm also of the opinion that this will happen. Just on a much longer timescale than any of us would like. Darklings reimagined into Malerions more martial armies, Dispossessed into Grungi's remade dwarven empires (separate from KO or Fyreslayers), Wanderers into the followers of Kuronoth whenever he arrives. 

 

I'd think the token elves/dwarves will remain much like the warbands from Warcry, but I wont be surprised when the full factions go away. Unsure how I feel about this still as I was looking forward to eventually expanding my darkling covens with humans and dwarves. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, xking said:

I don't think that's going to happen at all. Someone in the rumor thread said this based on what they we're saying in the Stream.

Based on humans (grounded people) but they didn't deny that it could be other races too (answering a twitch-chat question).

Don't get me wrong: I don't think it's likely at all. I think it will be same way as with Stormcast, where people were afraid they would just be Sigmarines, which also didn't turn out to be correct at all.

There is some indication that the writers want the tone of AoS to be different from 40k. It's not primary AoS material, but the Soulbound books emphasize that, while frequently dark, the intended tone of AoS is also hopeful. The belief that a better tomorrow is possible is supposed to be a core theme. Cities in particular have a theme of progress through cooperation.

I hope they stick the landing on Dawnbringer Crusades. How the faction is handled could be a huge turning point for AoS.

3 minutes ago, Pariah7echo said:

I'm also of the opinion that this will happen. Just on a much longer timescale than any of us would like. Darklings reimagined into Malerions more martial armies, Dispossessed into Grungi's remade dwarven empires (separate from KO or Fyreslayers), Wanderers into the followers of Kuronoth whenever he arrives. 

 

I'd think the token elves/dwarves will remain much like the warbands from Warcry, but I wont be surprised when the full factions go away. Unsure how I feel about this still as I was looking forward to eventually expanding my darkling covens with humans and dwarves. 

I mean, the option is not off the table, but it seems like it would start with the next edition at the earliest. At some point, I do expect that some kind of restructuring of Cities has to happen. The current state of being composed of basically five separate Fantasy armies can't realistically go on forever. Let's hope it happens in a satisfying, narratively appropriate way, though. I don't see anybody bemoan the loss of Legions of Nagash very much, so I don't doubt it can be done.

[Whitefang]

I don't understand why people think the redesign will make COS into Imperium.

Imperium is its own thing for 40k, a special product bred by that horrible setting filled with grimdarkness

It is never a thing for WFB or AOS

The redesign, at its worst, will make COS similar to human nations of the old world, whose major population are poor, conservative and fanatic, sometimes maybe even foolish, but they are never fascists or human supremacists. 

[CommissarRotke]

6 hours ago, Mungrun said:

Warhammer is full of despicable races and cultures.

This is less true for AOS and the rays of hope that are allowed to shine in AOS seem to be a reason that a LOT of us prefer it to 40k or even WHFB. 

If GW wants AOS to stand apart as its own high fantasy IP, something needs to be different. And being without the fantasy speciesism of their other two GIANT IPs will set Age of Sigmar as its own nobledark standard.

15 hours ago, Arathorn185 said:

ew Direct Cross Faction Synergies. And multiple redundant units.

I think there's a misunderstanding here: those of us who want the Cities redesign to include non-humans, want that because it would mean direct synergies and less/no redundant units.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

I think there's a misunderstanding here: those of us who want the Cities redesign to include non-humans, want that because it would mean direct synergies and less/no redundant units.

I'm really torn on this. I don't want the cooperative flavour of Cities to disappear, and the best way to realize it would be by having mixed-race units, but on the other hand I also think that AoS really lacks a faction you can point to as the "human faction".

There are three classic elf factions plus Sylvaneth. There are two distinct types of dwarves. But for humans, they are kind of a footnote at the moment, even in Cities. I know, I know: Stormcast are humans and chaos has a bunch of humans. But they kinda don't feel like variant human factions when there is no real base line.

[CommissarRotke]

5 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

The idea that in such a setting, with the forces of order's backs perpetually against the wall, that there'd be harmonious settlements of different fantasy races working in tandem (except races that are non-human) seems to me purely a result of GW needing to slap all the models together in one book rather than a coherent background setting.

If the entirety of Orders' backs are against the wall, that is in fact the best possible reason to work together? Struggling and fighting against Chaos would realistically bond the non-Chaos races together into some level of coexistence... Which is why the Age of Myth had Death and Destruction allied with Order. Like, having everyone continue to hate each other even with the Worst Enemy Ever about to kill you all is the lazier choice.

4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I get the apprehension that the identity of the current Cities of Sigmar could strongly change in the future. I also would not love that. But the current status of the cities is pretty definitively written into the lore. I would honestly be surprised to see them divided along racial lines again in the future. At the same time, a "normal human" faction has been an element that has been missing from AoS for a while now. I really think that GW making a big deal out of the  fact that they finally intend to tackle that deficiency in the way that it deserves is a huge positive and I hope they manage to do the project justice.

 

I definitely agree a normal human faction has been missing, and I know that half of this issue is because the Warhammer TV hosts are barely given any info to talk about or to answer questions with. My design issue right now is specifically with the bitz that they showed us, which look like the complete opposite of "like nothing you've seen before!" so it was definitely a bad choice of teaser.

3 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

the more you talk about warrior poets of hyish and death priests of shyish the less focus you get on the Everyman perspective.

Those sound like everyman stories to me..? Just as much as a Witch Hunter or Warrior Priest or Sergeant or whatever from WHFB. If they're a mortal human, they can be written with an everyman-perspective.

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I would sooner buy the idea that Dawnbringer Crusades become a sub-allegiance of Cities, like Stormcast get the option to play Stormkeeps or Scions. But even then, the current fluff has not established the Dawnbringers to be pure human or be motivated by xenophobia towards the elves and dwarves of the Cities. They are not venturing out to found racially pure human cities or anything like that, and it is established that they are frequently supported by the Kharadron Overlords and Ironweld Arsenal.

 

This is why I'd like clarification from GW more than anything. They already have tons of established lore on Cities out, and are even paying Cubicle 7 to consistently write more for Soulbound. This really seems to stem from how poorly the Warhammer reveals go in terms of information that we're allowed to be told....

[CommissarRotke]

25 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

I don't understand why people think the redesign will make COS into Imperium.

Imperium is its own thing for 40k, a special product bred by that horrible setting filled with grimdarkness

It is never a thing for WFB or AOS

The redesign, at its worst, will make COS similar to human nations of the old world, whose major population are poor, conservative and fanatic, sometimes maybe even foolish, but they are never fascists or human supremacists. 

This thread stemmed from me wanting to be excited to see the real humans of the Mortal Realms, and being unsure of what that future meant due to a lack of information. so thank you very much for this reply!!! (I have no more reacts)

PS- finally caught up on the thread, thanks for all the responses on both sides everyone

Edited May 6, 2022 by CommissarRotke

[EntMan]

5 hours ago, Marcvs said:

  5 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

The idea that in such a setting, with the forces of order's backs perpetually against the wall, that there'd be harmonious settlements of different fantasy races working in tandem (except races that are non-human) seems to me purely a result of GW needing to slap all the models together in one book rather than a coherent background

It'd ironic if we end up with Chaos being the grand alliance of melting pot of people working together for a common cause (Deamons, mortals, beasts and beastmen, spawn etc) while Order can't get their s*** together to cooperate.

[yukishiro1]

4 hours ago, Marcvs said:

When it comes to actual predictions/hopes, I completely agree: I think we'll just see a resculpt (+ new stuff) of the Freeguild side. The rest will stay as is, also because the minis from those ranges are holding up much better than the Freeguild units

That'd be just fine, and if they had presented it that way I don't think anyone would be worried. It's the fact that they presented it as both a "CoS refresh" and "a new Dawnbringer Crusade focused on humans" and then pointedly refused to confirm that non-human CoS units will remain supported that has people worried. They must have anticipated that people had these questions, and the fact that they weren't willing to address them in the reveal beyond a "who knows, maybe there'll be a few non-humans?" is concerning to anyone who has existing CoS armies, and I would hope anyone can see why that is. 

[RyantheFett]

6 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

That'd be just fine, and if they had presented it that way I don't think anyone would be worried. It's the fact that they presented it as both a "CoS refresh" and "a new Dawnbringer Crusade focused on humans" and then pointedly refused to confirm that non-human CoS units will remain supported that has people worried. They must have anticipated that people had these questions, and the fact that they weren't willing to address them in the reveal beyond a "who knows, maybe there'll be a few non-humans?" is concerning to anyone who has existing CoS armies, and I would hope anyone can see why that is. 

That is what is so strange about that part of the reveal!!! They bring up non-humans themselves almost like they were ready for the question, but then proceed to give a mixed answer that made it worse lol.

The stream and article also both jump around on the name so maybe they are still in the very early stages and don't know themselves? So it may still be a rework to the faction, a rework to just the freeguild part, or Cities become a mini grand alliance under Order with Dwarfs and the other factions getting a similar treatment?

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, Whitefang said:

I don't understand why people think the redesign will make COS into Imperium.

Imperium is its own thing for 40k, a special product bred by that horrible setting filled with grimdarkness

It is never a thing for WFB or AOS

The redesign, at its worst, will make COS similar to human nations of the old world, whose major population are poor, conservative and fanatic, sometimes maybe even foolish, but they are never fascists or human supremacists. 

It might be their (from the article) macabre dedication to the god king. It might be the artwork (devoid of non-human Cities denizens). It might be that 40k was referenced in the article. It might be that they'd be the humans that worship a god-empero...god-king in golden armour, that has created post human supersoldiers from humans.

There are many similarities already, and the only thing shown in models is more religious junk. Worry that they add fascism to the other popular war criminals (colonisation and crusading) that are about guaranteed isn't all that weird.

Of the new human models, fully half are witch hunters (one in cursed city, two van Densts, with non-witch hunters all three from Cursed City, with a priest among them).

[Baron Klatz]

Well paranoia aside I am leaning on that they just meant regular mortals by saying Humans since that’s a safe enough term that won’t give a lot away. 
 

Like if they actually make new mixed units of humans backed up by aelves and duardin they can’t say Mortals because StD already does that keyword for it’s mixed units.

But we’ll see. 
 

I can’t lie that I like the idea of a clean slate for them since it’s all just holdovers right now.

A fresh AoS with new “humans” working alongside Stormcasts, Fyreslayers, Deepkin, Kharadron, etc would help a lot with cutting the chains off the old stuff it’s dragging around and get people accepting the brand new factions as a new standard.(and maybe the final death of soup talk, God-king willing)

Because in talking about coalitions and looking at the Cities in the Corebook we do have the perfect set-up, especially with the move of the Shyish city from Glymmsforge to more aquatic Lethis:

Xintil- Lumineth

Lake Lethis- Deepkin

Hammerhal- Fyreslayers & Sylvaneth

Vindicarum- Kharadron

Misthavn- Daughters of Khaine

Excelsis- Coalesced Seraphon

perfect 6 sub-factions for Neo-cities to build around.

 

Plus somebody noted the Skaven cutscene have more of a Narnia Telmarine vibe and those would be perfect to fight alongside the Stormcasts as the high fantasy conquistador look with their own facemasks would be perfect for that Spanish church vibe the Stormcasts have in being golden seraphim masked scary angels.  

[Whitefang]

17 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

It might be their (from the article) macabre dedication to the god king. It might be the artwork (devoid of non-human Cities denizens). It might be that 40k was referenced in the article. It might be that they'd be the humans that worship a god-empero...god-king in golden armour.

This is just WFB Empire.

Empire is like a light year away from 40k Imperium, linking Empire to Imperium is like comparing a dog to a sabretooth.

Maybe we can talk about the risk of COS falling into 40K imperium when they can legally kill anyone who isn't a human sigmarite.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Whitefang

[Deepkin]

Yeah the Empire is just a moderately exaggerated Holy Roman (Holy Sigmarites?) Empire. Honestly, parts of it are probably toned down from real life (women have far more agency in the Empire than they did in real life at that time and place, for example. And it's explicitly polytheistic rather than the aggressive monotheism of real life). Still grimdark, but not as pitch black as the Imperium. 

[zilberfrid]

Just now, Whitefang said:

This is just WFB Empire.

Empire is like a light year away from 40k Imperium, linking Empire to Imperium is like comparing a dog to a sabretooth.

We'll have to see. Maybe you'll know sooner than we, you do seem to be more in the loop.

I fully expect the Dawnbringer crusade to be awful in lore with some very nice models, and the rest of Cities to be culled in AoS 4. Not obviously, but neglected and then silently just discontinued.

I might be proven wrong, but I don't see GW doing better than that.

[Deepkin]

You can always make your own background. Isn't that one of the joys of the Warhammer universe? If you think the current background is morally reprehensible, write your own that contains the level of moral didacticism you deem appropriate. Who knows? Write it well enough, and perhaps GW will incorporate it in their own. 

[CommissarRotke]

24 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

This is just WFB Empire.

Empire is like a light year away from 40k Imperium, linking Empire to Imperium is like comparing a dog to a sabretooth.

Maybe we can talk about the risk of COS falling into 40K imperium when they can legally kill anyone who isn't a human sigmarite.

But then the question becomes why tell us this is supposed to be designs we've never seen before, if it's just going to be a WFB Empire throwback?

The Empire is light years better than the Imperium, but it is still quite far from how COS has been established in terms of inter-species cooperation too.

[Whitefang]

55 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I fully expect the Dawnbringer crusade to be awful in lore with some very nice models, and the rest of Cities to be culled in AoS 4. Not obviously, but neglected and then silently just discontinued.

Retiring old models doesn't mean  their lore and concepts will also be abandoned, they are more likely to be changed, updated or reimaged, and that will be a long process, maybe even 5+ years till we see the final result. Lately Squats have just proven this. Losing their models doesn't mean these humans, aelves and duardins are purged or massacred in the background

And yes I do think some WFB legacy models will be retired, but we will likely get something new and unique in their stead.

It's like exchanging High Elves for Lumineth.

BTW, if you read the lore of DBS, it's not really like the crusade and colonization in the OTL,  this is because AOS as a fantasy setting, is completely different from our earth, the crushing force of Chaos, Destruction and Death exist there.

Of course, since this is warhammer, DBS has its awfulness： millions of poor and desperate people are simply sent to die or to face more horrible endings in the twisted hellscape.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Whitefang

[Whitefang]

10 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

But then the question becomes why tell us this is supposed to be designs we've never seen before, if it's just going to be a WFB Empire throwback?

The Empire is light years better than the Imperium, but it is still quite far from how COS has been established in terms of inter-species cooperation too.

Because it's not just gonna be "WFB Empire" after all?

I mean, obviously there are many design cues shared between WFB empire and the human parts of the COS, for reason in-lore (Their major god is basically the same person with same taste but older) and out-lore (most human models of COS are from WFB), it's not strange to find some lineages and similarities in the seed of this redesign.

But does that mean this seed will grow into the same tree of WFB Empire? I don't think so. AOS as setting provides totally new and different soil, water and fertilizer, even the seed is completely same to WFB Empire, it will grow into a new tree we have never seen before. And there are no two seeds completely same to each other. 

Let's use this example again, imaging high elves compared to lumineth but this time WFB empire to new COS.

 

[RyantheFett]

Still think the best answer is that this faction will also double up as the human faction for The Old World. Would explain a lot and be a super safe move by GW. Makes creating new units for The Old World safer since people would still buy them for Age of Sigmar and vice versa.

Removing the different races in Cities would just feel like GW was tricking fans for the past few years until they were ready for the real cities faction. And I am new to this game/company so not really sure if they would do such a dirty/cheap move?

[zilberfrid]

13 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

Still think the best answer is that this faction will also double up as the human faction for The Old World. Would explain a lot and be a super safe move by GW. Makes creating new units for The Old World safer since people would still buy them for Age of Sigmar and vice versa.

Removing the different races in Cities would just feel like GW was tricking fans for the past few years until they were ready for the real cities faction. And I am new to this game/company so not really sure if they would do such a dirty/cheap move?

They have already dumped about 20 sets/warscrolls from the combined subfactions that are now Cities.

I think there are about as many warscrolls removed across other factions (gitmobs, chaos familiars etc etc). Then there is Forgeworld, which has its entire Azorgh faction removed as well as quite a few other ones.

The fate of the dumped (sorry, in range rotation) Underworld warbands is unsure.

GW isn't shy about trashing many of its sets.

Edited May 6, 2022 by zilberfrid

[CommissarRotke]

47 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

But does that mean this seed will grow into the same tree of WFB Empire? I don't think so. AOS as setting provides totally new and different soil, water and fertilizer, even the seed is completely same to WFB Empire, it will grow into a new tree we have never seen before. And there are no two seeds completely same to each other. 

Let's use this example again, imaging high elves compared to lumineth but this time WFB empire to new COS.

I am sure you have things you can't share with us, so I appreciate the replies. If you think it'll be a Lumineth-type redesign, then I'll be excited to follow the development process for these new mortals, as I also think AOS provides an almost limitless opportunity for unique redesigns of old fantasy factions.

10 minutes ago, RyantheFett said:

Still think the best answer is that this faction will also double up as the human faction for The Old World. Would explain a lot and be a super safe move by GW. Makes creating new units for The Old World safer since people would still buy them for Age of Sigmar and vice versa.

 

I thought they would do this until the teaser reveal tbh; they were pretty explicit about this redesign being rooted in The Mortal Realms and not in the Old World. It's more likely TOW specialist game would use the old Empire moulds (so old armies don't look out of place) and simply provide upgrade kits for the 'new' TOW lore/setting.