AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion

[Doko]

I guess i only gonna report you for rude and double post and select the option of ignore you

[DwarfsOnly]

Am I the only one excited to throw some builds on the table? I got some lists that look quite potent, especially with the new artefacts. These artefacts are an absolutely MASSIVE improvement. Also the Runemaster is now a must-have, especially with the new prayer causing wyldwood effects.

[madmac]

Right now both Vulkite options seem terribly flawed.

Shields have a 4+ save which is as good as it gets for Fyreslayers, but not really anything to brag about otherwise, especially now that Fyreslayers have lost all their save stacking options except the generic command ability. The big problem is that their damage output is so low that it might as well be zero, and they're not that tanky that it's worth paying 170 points for just a 4+ save and horrifically bad attack density.

Vulkites with Axes can get an acceptable number of attacks on the charge, which is not to say it's particularly a lot, again, compared to what most armies can do. 16 attacks is slightly above average for like a 5 man base unit, and low for a 10 man unit that isn't getting stiffed by coherency. 10 Thralls for example can easily put out 21 attacks, with Rend, and that's before sweeping blows kicks in to give them 31 attacks or damage 2. Now Thralls are super buff, but even a lot of bog standard mediocre CoS infantry units people don't play are putting out 21 attacks on average, without the charge conditional and probably with rend.

No rend is also a serious problem, mediocre attack density+no rend+squishy+slow is not a winning combination all in all.

TLDR, I don't think either type of Vulkite is good, but probably right now I'd lean double axes if I had to use one or the other.

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, Clan's Cynic said:

It was an Heirloom in the 2.0 Battletome as well and did the same thing. 

Ah, thanks! Couldn’t find any references on it outside Soulbound. So the 2019 tome started it but the beverage’s background and uses got properly fleshed out in the RPG. 
 

Neat!

1 hour ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Vulkites - Picks any good? Or double axes? Or axe and shield? Basically I really like the pickaxes am I losing out if I build them?

Bob is pretty keen on dual axes.

“Ok, this warscroll is kind of new because it's the split of the old one into 2 units. If you charge you get 3 attacks and in the right Subfaction they are 2+ 2+

So each vulkite is 3 attacks 2+ 2+ and each dead vulkite can fight again...with the Mortal Wound rune active it's strong against units like Fulminators, Stormdrake, Kragnos...”

I wouldn’t naysay Warpicks though yet, there’s already stuff to pump accuracy and popping the Rune of Awakened Steel will send those Rends soaring to where even an Annihilator would sweat.

https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/6064#disqus_thread
 

1 hour ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Aurics - yea or nay?

Gonna say yea. Even if you go Droth for your Unleash Hell needs they still make a useful counter-charge line that can fit nicely with the must-take Runemaster flinging curses and protections around.

25 minutes ago, Superking said:

Can we please stop Doko making non stop doom posts every 2nd post? It's the same stuff over and over and it's boring and adds nothing.

Just talk over him with positivity. Best way to spark up better and brighter conversations.  

Like how Runemasters have a volcanic sized glow-up.

I wanna try some with the Fyrewall Invocation and the new Wyldwood volcano terrain to just turn any battlefield into a Lodge fortress.

What amazing versatility on top of a universal prayer.  

[Doko]

A review that isnt a youtuve if you preffer read(and also guerrila and sprue got some rules wrong)

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/battletome-fyreslayers-3rd-edition-review/

[Lord Krungharr]

Will any Fyreslayers be of value as allies to my Dispossessed as we've seen thus far?  I'm thinking probably not aside from a tunneling Runesmiter/HGBs, if that's even still a thing.  I frankly don't want to buy the new tome, but I'd keep some models if they could do some interesting things without the tome.   

[readercolin]

58 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Will any Fyreslayers be of value as allies to my Dispossessed as we've seen thus far?  I'm thinking probably not aside from a tunneling Runesmiter/HGBs, if that's even still a thing.  I frankly don't want to buy the new tome, but I'd keep some models if they could do some interesting things without the tome.   

I'm going to wait till after the FAQ comes out first, but a battle smith with the ability to give a 4+ rally is on my list of potential allies to bring into my cities.  For me, it is the idea of running a battle smith and an emerald lifeswarm to get death levels of recursion with my Phoenix guard, but I could totally see running that alongside some of the other tanky units as well.

[Baron Klatz]

13 minutes ago, readercolin said:

I'm going to wait till after the FAQ comes out first

Yeah, that’s why I can’t recommend him as an ally. That’s just insanely too good a use. There’s so many faq flags flying around it that it’ll get a Fyreslayer keyword plopped on the text it’s too risky.

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

but I'd keep some models if they could do some interesting things without the tome.   

Well that’s the Fyrefly in the Magmalt because everything about them now feels tuned to needing the Fyreslayer allegiance(and thus the tome) to be effective as they’re just too costly and watered down to be effective on their own.

That said the magma-tunneling Runesmiter’s tougher just like the rest of the heroes getting buffed and pumped up Magmadroths so you can still get a mercenary force of Fyreslayer heroes that can pull their runic weight even if the infantry are too questionable now to mix.

Also loved this bit:

”An Ignominious Death

Pick an enemy hero and kill it with throwing axes. That’s it and it’s hilarious. Considering throwing axes can deal mortal wounds one turn of the game and are actually not terrible any more either this could actually work on a Hero with only a wound or two left. More situational than the rest but could come up when you have nothing else to choose. “

 

This would be worth a Vulkite swarm alone just to focus on peppering down enemy hero with a shower of tomahawks.  

 

[Forehead]

I see potential in the new book. I cant see us going 5-0 or 4-1 often as we're now very squishy but some of our stuff can hit hard. The lads on magmadroths got a serious tune up and the additional wounds in lofnir will go a long way. Vulkite with axes on the charge, beserk fury and the right rune/runefather ability will make them into missiles - 8/8.5 pts per wound is not bad. Some of the artefacts look amazing and the infernoth is incredbile for 70pts. Not sure why the runemaster didnt get the retinue ability but the improved save on the foot smiter is appreciated. 

Playstyle needs to change to deal with the shift from durable to more output but i like it and am eagerly awaiting picking the book up next week.

[Doko]

28 minutes ago, readercolin said:

I'm going to wait till after the FAQ comes out first, but a battle smith with the ability to give a 4+ rally is on my list of potential allies to bring into my cities.  For me, it is the idea of running a battle smith and an emerald lifeswarm to get death levels of recursion with my Phoenix guard, but I could totally see running that alongside some of the other tanky units as well.

That have been fixed allready,gw said in facebook that this only work with fyreslayers units,so gonna be faqed 

[Svalack]

Vulkites with axes went up to 170 the shields down to 160. I didn't even notice it until I read through the points table again.

[Baron Klatz]

9 minutes ago, Doko said:

That have been fixed allready,gw said in facebook that this only work with fyreslayers units,so gonna be faqed 

Yeah that figures. There’s wanting to sell a model and then there’s having a foreign model become a lynch pin in everyone’s strategy.

Only avatar-Gotrek and Mega-gargants are allowed that privilege!  
 

13 minutes ago, Forehead said:

Not sure why the runemaster didnt get the retinue ability

Probably was too busy low-fiving the Stormcast Lord-Relictor that they’re both AoS1 priests that made out like kings in the new tomes.
 

Plus that probably would’ve been a bit too much on top of everything else that just made him a list staple. He has options to offset damage anyway so could’ve been viewed as overkill when the goal was more playstyles.

On which I agree about needing to change it up. Fyreslayers have to be aggressive and burn their resources now which is very flavorful with the Aqshy Scions doing everything they can to turn their enemies into ashes so they can find the ur-gold in the remains easier. 🔥
 

 

[Azamar]

26 minutes ago, Svalack said:

Vulkites with axes went up to 170 the shields down to 160. I didn't even notice it until I read through the points table again.

Huh. Changes things a bit if that’s the case as it means they’re the same points as 5 hearthguard for double the wounds. With a battlesmith and all out defence I could see the shield vulkites being disproportionately hard to kill, especially if you doubled down on a reinforced unit. The lack of damage output remains an issue for them though so I think for 10 points more you might still be better off with the axes if you’re going to run vulkite berserkers 

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++
Just a reminder - We know you guys are passionate about what you enjoy and new book time can be scary but that’s no excuse for some of you (stares @Superking & @Doko) to take pot shots at each other. Please don’t do it.

+++ Mod Hat Off +++
 

Russ Veal has done a review on his channel Face Hammer of the new book and it sounds okay. Some nice combos in it.

He also did a list tech with one of the Playtesters lists to give you a possible build to play around with. 
 

 

[Lord Krungharr]

Looks like maybe a Magmadroth list would be similar to a Stonehorn/Thundertusk list for Ogors, 2-3 Hero mounted and 3 Troops versions.  Fyre vs Ice, who will win?!?!

[zilberfrid]

10 hours ago, Doko said:

Vulkites both are very poor damage for their cost and having 33" bases and 1" range 

If Vulkites had 33" bases, the game would be wildly different, and their boxes be very unwieldy. Cheap way to get 10 small tables though.

Instead, they have 32 mm bases, which is about 1/262nd of the size.

If you really want to use medieval measurements for the base size, 1" 1/4th would be close.

[Reuben Parker]

18 hours ago, madmac said:

Right now both Vulkite options seem terribly flawed.

Shields have a 4+ save which is as good as it gets for Fyreslayers, but not really anything to brag about otherwise, especially now that Fyreslayers have lost all their save stacking options except the generic command ability. The big problem is that their damage output is so low that it might as well be zero, and they're not that tanky that it's worth paying 170 points for just a 4+ save and horrifically bad attack density.

Vulkites with Axes can get an acceptable number of attacks on the charge, which is not to say it's particularly a lot, again, compared to what most armies can do. 16 attacks is slightly above average for like a 5 man base unit, and low for a 10 man unit that isn't getting stiffed by coherency. 10 Thralls for example can easily put out 21 attacks, with Rend, and that's before sweeping blows kicks in to give them 31 attacks or damage 2. Now Thralls are super buff, but even a lot of bog standard mediocre CoS infantry units people don't play are putting out 21 attacks on average, without the charge conditional and probably with rend.

No rend is also a serious problem, mediocre attack density+no rend+squishy+slow is not a winning combination all in all.

TLDR, I don't think either type of Vulkite is good, but probably right now I'd lean double axes if I had to use one or the other.

You realize with 32mm bases a 10 man unit can still stand in a single line and keep coherency and all fight? If you stagger forward and back whilst touching bases they end up within 1” of 2 friendly models and even the staggered back models are within 1” of the opponents line. 
 

so On charge with a runfather can be 4 attacks each with lodge possibly 2+2+ and rune for rend or MW they can be dangerous. The new book seems all about stacking and I think dual axe VB may end up being a very solid unit. 
 

Also 8ppw and most likely a 6+ Ward isn’t actually that squishy. 

[Doko]

Yes that is only in paper,in actual games where enemy dont have the models in a perfect lane and where charge dice domt let you move where you want its imposible attack with more than 5\6 models each unit of 10.

And yes the effective wounds of vulkites are fine,the problem is the damage.

Can be buffed with rend,extra attacks etc but as every other unit of each army can have buffs.

But even if the damage is too much small for his cost,if they get changed to 2" range i would see so much more playable this book.

With blocks of 20 or even 30 vulkites with axes as the screen or even damage unit and then one or two units of 5\10 hearthguard as bodyguard of a father or son and also attacking together the hero when needed.

Then the book seem more fun and open new lists and options.

But actual vulkites with 1" range makes them umplayable as damage unit and imposible in blocks of 20 or 30.

Also after read more slowly the book we have too much wards6 that dont stack,i think a fix to battlesmith to give a +1 to wards saves if the unit have a ward allready would be fun,more balanced and thematic

[DrDemento]

49 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

You realize with 32mm bases a 10 man unit can still stand in a single line and keep coherency and all fight? If you stagger forward and back whilst touching bases they end up within 1” of 2 friendly models and even the staggered back models are within 1” of the opponents line. 

On a related note, I’ve been so confused reading all the “can’t get second rank attacks with 1” on 32mm”.  I thought it has long been established that if you “honeycomb” second rank you’re in range.  Is that contested (still)?  
 

If so, couldn’t we spread front rank maybe 1/2” apart for second rank to more reliably get the range?

[PJetski]

Hearthguard with poleaxes still slap and are hard to kill, especially with fight first on defense and a +1 attack from runefather.

If you get shot you can rally back on a 4+, and theres always the nulsidian icon.

Flamekeeper seems like a nice tech piece to add more mobility or attacks, as needed

Honestly not looking too bad. More interesting than the Idoneth book imo

[DrDemento]

Also, any recent examples of points reductions at the post release FAQ?  
 

it seems to me that every 3.0 book is “nerfed” compared to 2.0 in terms of warscroll and allegiance abilities, in the spirit of streamlining, which is fine by me.  But, I do think the points seem high.

[Malakithe]

The only thing im seeing as being 'good' is the new standard deathstar of Runefather + HGB. They will be super hard to remove and murder in combat but thats if they ever get into combat due to how slow they are.

But thats it. Every 'combo' requires stacking of mostly once per game effects onto a single unit. Sure your Vulkites can have 4 attacks but thats once per phase and only one unit while the rest of your list is completely neutered. 

The best part about the book might only be allies 

[Baron Klatz]

23 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Russ Veal has done a review on his channel Face Hammer of the new book and it sounds okay. Some nice combos in it.

Thanks for posting those, they’re much more in-depth than Goonhammer was which made some mistakes or left stuff out in their review.  

22 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Looks like maybe a Magmadroth list would be similar to a Stonehorn/Thundertusk list for Ogors, 2-3 Hero mounted and 3 Troops versions.  Fyre vs Ice, who will win?!?!

In a straight-up fight my ur-gold is on the Lofnir Lodge burning through the Everwinter forces with their new stats and buffs. If it’s a scenario though and focused on missions and objectives then Beastclaws look to have the advantage and will freeze over zones the Fyreslayers can’t burn through. 
 

Would be a fun contest either way.  

7 hours ago, DrDemento said:

Also, any recent examples of points reductions at the post release FAQ?  
 

it seems to me that every 3.0 book is “nerfed” compared to 2.0 in terms of warscroll and allegiance abilities, in the spirit of streamlining, which is fine by me.  But, I do think the points seem high.

That Battlescroll had some pretty big ones.

Plus the next GHB(and likely new season) will be out in July which will shake points up again.

Lastly, rules leaker Bob posted some positive testing of Fyreslayers giving the Stormcast draconiths what for:

“i just don't agree, you are focusing on the bad aspect of the army but i think it's normal. All 2.0 player will have bad reaction to their 3.0 transformation...

IJ yelled at their new battletome, Nurgle did the same(i did^^), Eels spammer are whinning right now...DOK players are going to yell like never...

Just tonight there was a twitch on french wargame studio (they are doing a top 8 right now) It was ANCA playing the SCE : 4dragon, 4fulmi, 6 raptors and Tim playing the new FS won 29 vs 13 !

(ANCA is one of the best french players and he is part of the national team that finished 2nd or 3rd last world )

Edit : They are in final vs Nurgle :D”

Edited March 7, 2022 by Baron Klatz

[Lord Krungharr]

7 hours ago, DrDemento said:

On a related note, I’ve been so confused reading all the “can’t get second rank attacks with 1” on 32mm”.  I thought it has long been established that if you “honeycomb” second rank you’re in range.  Is that contested (still)?  
 

If so, couldn’t we spread front rank maybe 1/2” apart for second rank to more reliably get the range?

You definitely CAN get plenty of 2nd rank 32mm bases engaged within 1" by staggering.  Just gotta really measure carefully, which is where little plastic distance templates come in handy.  However when you start bending the ranks around other large bases that's where the 1" range puts coherency in grave jeopardy so you will get less into combat.  25mm based Duardin can all string out in a straight single rank and maintain coherency because of their puny base size.  That's why my dwarves live in the city in smaller apartments, so they can get all of their attacks in at their neighbors upstairs who make WAAAAY too much noise for no reason.

Oh and the dimensions are blurry on the 2nd pic, that's 25mm away from the Mawkrusha base for the outer rank, and a bit over 22mm between the first rank bases, BUT like 35mm or so between the outer rank models, and you can see that the outer rank on the left is not in coherency with 2 models, thus would be able to attack but would be gone at the end of the turn regardless.

In the third picture though if you get the inner rank 5mm or so from each other then you can get the outer rank 25mm from the big enemy in the center and less than 25mm from each other. (1 inch is 25.4mm for reference in case you weren't aware).  

Edited March 7, 2022 by Lord Krungharr

[Voltek]

Is there somewhere one can read about the Stormcast vs Fyreslayers French game? That sounds interesting.

I'm wondering how a Greyfyrd will be with 6 foot heroes or 5 and a Runefather on Magmadroth.