Price increase on GW Products (coming 7th March)

[Beliman]

I give credit to the company that build this setting/ world/ galaxy/ realms/ whatever and promote the hobby/ community. But I will not buy anything that I find it's above their value, and believe me that I'm really flexible about that.

I'm not a 3D-printer guy, so that's not an option too.

If I can't enjoy warhammer anymore for whatever reason (and money being on of them), I will switch games. I already have some other skirmish and wargames so... Easy, simple, and nobody gets hurt.

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, Noserenda said:

I think a lot of us have been burned by the absolute false economy of a lot of smaller games, dropping a hundred or two on rules and models that will sit around gathering dust until i give them to my nephews to bash around or sell them on ebay for pennies on the pound just to get rid of them is something ive had happen a dozen times or more. Meanwhile ive been playing AoS recently with an army ive been buying stuff for for over 20 years and i can still go back and use, all of the competition from that era is dust and wasted money.

Historicals are different, but then historical gaming really is a slightly different hobby anyway.

This is why model agnostic rulesets appeal to me.

Also, historical models are a lot better than I originally thought, and they have been added to my repetoire.

[CommissarRotke]

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

Maybe you should look into some 3D printing then. 

....

Individuals 3D printing for themselves is not a solution to this, and is also not possible for a lot of people... As many of us have already said in this thread, we are already looking at 3rd party minis (that have large 3D printing operations) or other mini companies like Atomic Mass. We already have backlogs to work on without buying.

I will again reiterate: the point is NOT this single inflation increase, it is the long line of decisions GW has made--from Cursed City to webstore warscrolls--that holistically impact AOS that we have a problem with. And we have this problem in the first place because we care enough about the game that GW wants us to care about to even expend the energy complaining.

 

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, if this was the first GW price increases in years I think people would be a lot more willing to accept the "economic climate" rationale. But it isn't. GW raises prices every year. It's a "boy who cries wolf" sort of situation. Maybe this time there really is good economic justification for the price increase...if they hadn't already increased prices multiple times during boom times. 

GW's answer to every situation is raise prices. Great economic climate? Raise prices. Bad economic climate? Raise prices. Sunny today? Raise prices. Rainy tomorrow? Raise prices. Do that often enough and people are going to rightly stop taking your PR seriously. 

This is an elective decision GW made to prioritize maintaining their already extraordinary margins. It's a decision they can make, it's not illegal or anything. But that is what's going on here. It's a bit pathetic to see GW pleading economic conditions when great economic conditions never stopped it from increasing prices before. One of the rationales people used to support those prior price increases was that it'd cushion GW from the need to adjust prices to match the economic cycle...well, that obviously didn't turn out to be true. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by yukishiro1

[papary]

15 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Yeah, if this was the first GW price increases in years I think people would be a lot more willing to accept the "economic climate" rationale. But it isn't. GW raises prices every year. It's a "boy who cries wolf" sort of situation. Maybe this time there really is good economic justification for the price increase...if they hadn't already increased prices multiple times during boom times. 

GW's answer to every situation is raise prices. Great economic climate? Raise prices. Bad economic climate? Raise prices. Sunny today? Raise prices. Rainy tomorrow? Raise prices. Do that often enough and people are going to rightly stop taking your PR seriously. 

This is an elective decision GW made to prioritize maintaining their already extraordinary margins. It's a decision they can make, it's not illegal or anything. But that is what's going on here. It's a bit pathetic to see GW pleading economic conditions when great economic conditions never stopped it from increasing prices before. One of the rationales people used to support those prior price increases was that it'd cushion GW from the need to adjust prices to match the economic cycle...well, that obviously didn't turn out to be true. 

 

 

 

 

 

Gotta keep those shareholders happy. I’d planned to get some bits for a slow grow stormcast force I’ve started but I’ll be honest this has left a sour taste in my mouth so I ended up getting some mcp stuff instead.

[Public Universal Duardin]

I'm not sure I can say anything that hasn't already been said, in this thread or any of the previous threads in the past few years on GW price increases. So I'll try to be brief.

I've always on threads like these talked about accessibility and the health of our hobby. Maybe I'm too cynical in believing every hobby needs new blood, or too nostalgic over a time when GW products were more affordable for everyone. I still maintain that. Truth is, I haven't shopped directly from GW in a while, but we're approaching a point when I start to feel priced out of the modeling part of the hobby in general. A bit disconcerting when a lifelong hobby becomes too "luxury" for me!

I'm unsure who GW is for anymore. I've tried to bring new blood to the hobby, but my friends balk when they see the price of entry. And they're adults in their mid-20s. People who should be the prime consumers with excess money. Please don't take this as doomposting, but I assume most of us here got into "plastic crack" relatively young, fomenting a life-long passion. How CAN that happen for future generations if single adults cannot afford this hobby?

I admit, this is a luxury hobby. Most entertainment is. But if you already are into (digital) gaming, role-playing or avid movie-going, it's probably easier to put the price of a single Primaris Lieutenant on your current hobby than buy one grey marine. I know I would.

[yukishiro1]

There are free, legal alternatives that don't involve piracy that give you complete access to GW's rules without breaking any IP laws. It isn't an either-or situation. 

If people really stop buying books I assume GW will move to shut some of them down, but that's in the future. Right now you can get the full text of every book GW produces for free on youtube from GW-approved sources. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by yukishiro1

[zilberfrid]

7 hours ago, Doko said:

I dont have 3d print so i gonna have to continue buying gw models......but i wont pay the books as gold when i can only have them with one click. And i sorry i know its piracy but now that rules of models that i allready paid for arent free and you must buy tomed to play your models and now get this huge increase?good move for gw if want end piracy

You are quite critical of GW's rules, and I agree with that. Why not take Oathmark or Onepagerules for a spin for army games, and the myriad of otger options for skirmish games?

[Kasper]

8 hours ago, Public Universal Duardin said:

I'm unsure who GW is for anymore. I've tried to bring new blood to the hobby, but my friends balk when they see the price of entry. And they're adults in their mid-20s. People who should be the prime consumers with excess money. Please don't take this as doomposting, but I assume most of us here got into "plastic crack" relatively young, fomenting a life-long passion. How CAN that happen for future generations if single adults cannot afford this hobby?

But people absolutely can afford it, they just choose not to or those introducing them are straight up unrealistic how to get started with the hobby. IMO even Warhammer is actually pretty "cheap" if you consider how much time you get out of every dollar you spent. This is assuming you actually sit down, assemble, paint and play with those minis. Its an incredible value and gives you much joy for MANY hours considering what other hobbies cost or what a quick trip to the movies etc. Dollar : Hour of enjoyment ratio is rather good. 

For people entering the hobby the goal shouldnt be to straight up buy 3+ full 2.000 pts. armies. Buying into Warcry or 500 pts. games is where the entry level is. 

Vince V. on Warhammer Weekly has talked about this topic and made a youtube vid about it but new people shouldnt buy into GWs products like at all, theres a significant saving from buying other hobby items - All the tools/paints/brushes are way overpriced but thats a different topic really. 

[zilberfrid]

8 hours ago, Public Universal Duardin said:

I'm not sure I can say anything that hasn't already been said, in this thread or any of the previous threads in the past few years on GW price increases. So I'll try to be brief.

I've always on threads like these talked about accessibility and the health of our hobby. Maybe I'm too cynical in believing every hobby needs new blood, or too nostalgic over a time when GW products were more affordable for everyone. I still maintain that. Truth is, I haven't shopped directly from GW in a while, but we're approaching a point when I start to feel priced out of the modeling part of the hobby in general. A bit disconcerting when a lifelong hobby becomes too "luxury" for me!

I'm unsure who GW is for anymore. I've tried to bring new blood to the hobby, but my friends balk when they see the price of entry. And they're adults in their mid-20s. People who should be the prime consumers with excess money. Please don't take this as doomposting, but I assume most of us here got into "plastic crack" relatively young, fomenting a life-long passion. How CAN that happen for future generations if single adults cannot afford this hobby?

I admit, this is a luxury hobby. Most entertainment is. But if you already are into (digital) gaming, role-playing or avid movie-going, it's probably easier to put the price of a single Primaris Lieutenant on your current hobby than buy one grey marine. I know I would.

If you want to introduce your friends to wargaming in general, printed stuff on bases is cheap and easy.

If you want to introduce them to painting, things like Victrix Vikings, or Perry boxes are about €0.40 to €0.60 per model and are more detailed than people may think. Said vikings being better than most of the Freeguild stuff at at least € 2,20 per model.

For rulesets, try skirmish games like Frostgrave, Silver Bajonet or other mini agnostic games.

I've calculated it before, but you can give 4 people a Frostgrave book as well as the 10 models (calculating 10 Perry models and 2 Frostgrave wizards, which is more than you need but gives options) they need for that each for €140.

That seems reasonable as a point of entry, €35 per person. Another €35 would get you a bunch of brushes, paints and cheap primer.

If you share books (Frostgrave 2 for €25), price drops significantly. If you want more teams, that was only €10 per person.

If you want more options, Frostgrave soldiers and the like are more expensive at around €1 per model so would get to €15 per team but do give more options.

If you use one of the many free rulesers, you're off cheaper still, but I don't know team sizes for those.

[Marcvs]

15 minutes ago, Kasper said:

But people absolutely can afford it, they just choose not to or those introducing them are straight up unrealistic how to get started with the hobby. IMO even Warhammer is actually pretty "cheap" if you consider how much time you get out of every dollar you spent. This is assuming you actually sit down, assemble, paint and play with those minis. Its an incredible value and gives you much joy for MANY hours considering what other hobbies cost or what a quick trip to the movies etc. Dollar : Hour of enjoyment ratio is rather good. 

For people entering the hobby the goal shouldnt be to straight up buy 3+ full 2.000 pts. armies. Buying into Warcry or 500 pts. games is where the entry level is.

I agree with the hour of passtime / €€€ ratio reasoning but I would consider having one 2000pts army as the standard goal for a new player of Age of Sigmar. Saying that you can play 500pts games is very close to saying you can play a different game: after a few introductory games you'll really struggle to find an opponent in all but the biggest scenes.

Once you compare with the cost of a 2000pts army + books + painting stuff and accessories, even the  €€€ per hour ratio might start to look a bit worse compared to competitors such as videogames (we're talking of what, 1 AAA game bought at full price per mont for a year?), or arts&crafts and the like.

[zilberfrid]

23 minutes ago, Kasper said:

But people absolutely can afford it, they just choose not to or those introducing them are straight up unrealistic how to get started with the hobby. IMO even Warhammer is actually pretty "cheap" if you consider how much time you get out of every dollar you spent. This is assuming you actually sit down, assemble, paint and play with those minis. Its an incredible value and gives you much joy for MANY hours considering what other hobbies cost or what a quick trip to the movies etc. Dollar : Hour of enjoyment ratio is rather good. 

For people entering the hobby the goal shouldnt be to straight up buy 3+ full 2.000 pts. armies. Buying into Warcry or 500 pts. games is where the entry level is. 

Vince V. on Warhammer Weekly has talked about this topic and made a youtube vid about it but new people shouldnt buy into GWs products like at all, theres a significant saving from buying other hobby items - All the tools/paints/brushes are way overpriced but thats a different topic really. 

We're not comparing Warhammer to collecting classic cars, we're comparing GW's offering to other miniature games and other products.

[Greybeard86]

On GW’s control over prices:

They have market power, there is zero doubt about it. Market power is bad not because they “make more money” but because prices are above the competitive level and that drives consumers out. Those are consumers that would be able to participate in a competitive market that won’t because the company is using their market power to play with prices. This is just textbook IO economics. 
 

The ability GW has to raise prices is related to the price elasticity of demand, which in turn is connected to the low competitive pressure they face. Higher prices may result in consumers switching to other producers, but GW stands a giant compared to smaller companies. It has been debated to death and we find examples of this in the comments (buying other games/minis feeling like a waste due to fewer players). It affects everyone, including people who paint and presumably want an audience to like their instagram posts or buy their painted minis.

What can we do as consumers? On our own, practice impulse control (no pile of shame) and little else. It is hard to introduce new games in a local community and not everyone wants to make that effort. It is precisely as a community that we can do better. Organizing our on your tournaments (instead of letting stores and GW run the scene) and allowing for better representation  of 3rd party minis (a la kings of war) would go a long way.  Sharing schemes for rule books. Or even adopting 3rd party rules while still playing warhammer universes (e.g one page rules).

 

All of the above would erode the market power GW has, curve its worse impulses, and make for a larger hobby community. Some people think that a strong GW is needed for a strong hobby. Nothing furthest from reality. An excessively dominant GW is bad for the hobby in the same way that it’s been shown for almost every other market. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Greybeard86
phone autocorrect

[Public Universal Duardin]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

But people absolutely can afford it, they just choose not to or those introducing them are straight up unrealistic how to get started with the hobby. IMO even Warhammer is actually pretty "cheap" if you consider how much time you get out of every dollar you spent. This is assuming you actually sit down, assemble, paint and play with those minis. Its an incredible value and gives you much joy for MANY hours considering what other hobbies cost or what a quick trip to the movies etc. Dollar : Hour of enjoyment ratio is rather good. 

For people entering the hobby the goal shouldnt be to straight up buy 3+ full 2.000 pts. armies. Buying into Warcry or 500 pts. games is where the entry level is. 

Vince V. on Warhammer Weekly has talked about this topic and made a youtube vid about it but new people shouldnt buy into GWs products like at all, theres a significant saving from buying other hobby items - All the tools/paints/brushes are way overpriced but thats a different topic really. 

I don't know. This feels like a bad faith reading of what I said. If you've never painted minis in your life, and you just hear the hype and see the memes/community of 40K and AoS, GWs webstore will scare them off. Especially if you make the calculations of what a standard army costs. Heck, we in the hobby constantly make jokes like "Maybe Henry Cavill can afford another army", this hobby is known as expensive, even beyond our bubbles.

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

If you want to introduce your friends to wargaming in general, printed stuff on bases is cheap and easy.

If you want to introduce them to painting, things like Victrix Vikings, or Perry boxes are about €0.40 to €0.60 per model and are more detailed than people may think. Said vikings being better than most of the Freeguild stuff at at least € 2,20 per model.

For rulesets, try skirmish games like Frostgrave, Silver Bajonet or other mini agnostic games.

I've calculated it before, but you can give 4 people a Frostgrave book as well as the 10 models (calculating 10 Perry models and 2 Frostgrave wizards, which is more than you need but gives options) they need for that each for €140.

That seems reasonable as a point of entry, €35 per person. Another €35 would get you a bunch of brushes, paints and cheap primer.

If you share books (Frostgrave 2 for €25), price drops significantly. If you want more teams, that was only €10 per person.

If you want more options, Frostgrave soldiers and the like are more expensive at around €1 per model so would get to €15 per team but do give more options.

If you use one of the many free rulesers, you're off cheaper still, but I don't know team sizes for those.

This is all true (and I play Frostgrave myself!), but GW has a lot of namepower. The universe is pretty entrenched in pop culture, and while in my case I can introduce friends to model agnostic systems, it doesn't affect the risk of new people in general getting turned off by GW prices.

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

I agree with the hour of passtime / €€€ ratio reasoning but I would consider having one 2000pts army as the standard goal for a new player of Age of Sigmar. Saying that you can play 500pts games is very close to saying you can play a different game: after a few introductory games you'll really struggle to find an opponent in all but the biggest scenes.

Once you compare with the cost of a 2000pts army + books + painting stuff and accessories, even the  €€€ per hour ratio might start to look a bit worse compared to competitors such as videogames (we're talking of what, 1 AAA game bought at full price per mont for a year?), or arts&crafts and the like.

This is what I was getting at! Besides, if you /already own/ a PC, PlayStation, Xbox or whatever, it's probably easier to put money on that. Especially with sales. Buying a Final Fantasy or Mass Effect gives you what, 80-100h of gameplay? How much does a Primaris Lieutenant or Gotrek give to someone who doesn't even know if they'll like painting or wargaming? Maybe someone would suggest I should be like a drug dealer, carrying pots of Chaos Black and Nuln Oil alongside free minis in an oversized trench coat and hand out samples--first time is free--but at that point I fear I'd strain my own finances, heheh.

Of course, it's all personal decisions, but I know for a fact that GW has priced out friends who are interested in the lore, the community and the game. I can't be the only one, can I?

[Overread]

MODERATOR NOTICE

 

I remind ALL members that we do not tolerate the advocation of piracy/theft on the forums. By all means if a price is too much for you then you are free to not buy something, but do not condone, link, promote or otherwise encourage the use of stolen/pirated material.

[RuneBrush]

On 2/9/2022 at 7:06 PM, The Red King said:

Cost of living has always gone up but at least in the US wages arent keeping up and the reactions can only be wrong so many times.

Sadly it's not just the US that is in this situation.  I think many parts of the world have been simply surviving as best they can, but the past few years peoples finances have become more and more tight.

[zilberfrid]

For the record, I think this price rise is warranted. It's the high base price and all the other higher than inflation other price rises that bother me.

And all price rises, whether warranted or not (as well as lowered disposable income), incur new evaluations on whether the product is worth its cost.

Edited February 11, 2022 by zilberfrid

[Noserenda]

I love skirmish games (Though Frostgrave sadly never got its hooks into most of my group) but its a false equivalency, like saying "I know you wanted a car but this push bike is just as good" its just not quite the same thing.

If you want to encourage newbies, run a slow grow campaign or just match their collection rather than ignoring them until they have 2000pts. Our group right now is doing exactly that and its great fun. The first 600pts is particularly easy whilst the Start collecting sets endure  OFC GW is also removing those   

Believe me, as someone with an absolutely minimal disposable income i probably wouldnt be so blase if i didnt have a considerable stash from better days but is absolutely dooable still, especially if you arent insistent on buying direct from GW.

[zilberfrid]

49 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

I love skirmish games (Though Frostgrave sadly never got its hooks into most of my group) but its a false equivalency, like saying "I know you wanted a car but this push bike is just as good" its just not quite the same thing.

If you want to encourage newbies, run a slow grow campaign or just match their collection rather than ignoring them until they have 2000pts. Our group right now is doing exactly that and its great fun. The first 600pts is particularly easy whilst the Start collecting sets endure  OFC GW is also removing those   

Believe me, as someone with an absolutely minimal disposable income i probably wouldnt be so blase if i didnt have a considerable stash from better days but is absolutely dooable still, especially if you arent insistent on buying direct from GW.

Skirmish games are not the only things on the market, though army games are less common.

• Onepagerules has army rules,
• Oathmark is an army game,
• SAGA is about 30 (bridging between skirmish and army)

I don't know many, but a brief question in the Wargames Reddit would give a lot of options.

I especially like Oathmark for the way you construct your kingdom and unit/hero choices.

Edited February 11, 2022 by zilberfrid

[Flippy]

38 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Skirmish games are not the only things on the market, though army games are less common.

• Onepagerules has army rules,
• Oathmark is an army game,
• SAGA is about 30 (bridging between skirmish and army)

I don't know many, but a brief question in the Wargames Reddit would give a lot of options.

I especially like Oathmark for the way you construct your kingdom and unit/hero choices.

When your kid begs for Optimus Prime, try giving him some generic robot truck and see how that works. I can only guess, but probably the same goes for the inner kid in most of us – the story behind the toys is the driving force; otherwise, why even bother with assembling, painting and moving random plastic dudes. I can maybe settle for an elf mage to use in any system you want when on budget, but I can still remember the insane amount I’ve spent in the mid 90s to buy Teclis – just because he was the Teclis, the High Loremaster of Hoeth.

[Greybeard86]

24 minutes ago, Flippy said:

When your kid begs for Optimus Prime, try giving him some generic robot truck and see how that works. I can only guess, but probably the same goes for the inner kid in most of us – the story behind the toys is the driving force; otherwise, why even bother with assembling, painting and moving random plastic dudes. I can maybe settle for an elf mage to use in any system you want when on budget, but I can still remember the insane amount I’ve spent in the mid 90s to buy Teclis – just because he was the Teclis, the High Loremaster of Hoeth.

And this is precisely what GW is using to charge you so much. For GW corporate, the lore is simply product differentiation that enables higher margins.

Until someone realizes that there are a ton of not-teclis elf mages that look at least as good (oftentimes better, though looks are subjective) at a fraction of the price.

So, you could play Teclis, based on the lore, with a different sculpt and thus have your cake and eat it (and not look like the other 30k teclins clones on the tabletop). That is, until some genius starts attempting to enforce WYSIWYG because "you must be able to identify minis in a nanosecond by looks" in a game that takes hours long with no physicial / dexterity component. Of course GW has an interest in keepings things this way.

At this point some people are falling for the illusion over reality. Snap out of it. Not-Teclis can be as cool as Teclis, the lore is not the miniatures, but the imagination. If GW wants to keep selling all those Teclis, they should be competing in value with others (either prices or quality) not in legal prowess (how many companies I can prevent from being to close to teclis and its aelves or orruks or duardin).

The same could be said about the rules. You do NOT need GW pricier-than-gold rulebooks that get outdated constantly to play in GW universes.

[Flippy]

44 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

And this is precisely what GW is using to charge you so much. For GW corporate, the lore is simply product differentiation that enables higher margins.

Oh, I am very aware of that. The Optimus Prime example was based on a real-life experience and what a perfect example that was, of a company using storytelling to charge you many times more for a same plastic robot.

Now, I'm almost 40, nobody's enforcing WYSIWYG on me, I've lost my precious Teclis somewhere along the way - and I can deal with the GW soft addiction. What I was trying to say is that maybe, just maybe, you actually need the childish drama between Teclis, Tyrion and Malekith to get the young people into the hobby and they want the exact models to carry the emotions - something that the Perry Vikings and 3D prints cannot provide. Think LEGO; you can find the alternative, but you've seen The Lego Movie 1&2, Lego Batman Movie, Lego Ninjago Movie... and they are charging you in a way that makes GW look like business noobs.

[Greybeard86]

5 minutes ago, Flippy said:

What I was trying to say is that maybe, just maybe, you actually need the childish drama between Teclis, Tyrion and Malekith to get the young people into the hobby and they want the exact models to carry the emotions - something that the Perry Vikings and 3D prints cannot provide. Think LEGO; you can find the alternative, but you've seen The Lego Movie 1&2, Lego Batman Movie, Lego Ninjago Movie... and they are charging you in a way that makes GW look like business noobs.

Kids are very vulnerable to marketing and "hype" because they aren't fully developed. What is our excuse? Because I see this enforced in tournies all the time.

Quote

they want the exact models to carry the emotions

They most certainly do not, beyond the mind tricks from marketing. Maybe building up defenses as kids would have been good.

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, Flippy said:

When your kid begs for Optimus Prime, try giving him some generic robot truck and see how that works. I can only guess, but probably the same goes for the inner kid in most of us – the story behind the toys is the driving force; otherwise, why even bother with assembling, painting and moving random plastic dudes. I can maybe settle for an elf mage to use in any system you want when on budget, but I can still remember the insane amount I’ve spent in the mid 90s to buy Teclis – just because he was the Teclis, the High Loremaster of Hoeth.

I don't have a kid, but I mostly had generic toys, not specific brand ones and made my own stories with them.

This is similar to my approach to building and painting miniatures.

You said skirmish games were not the same thing, so I provided examples of army games. But if it must be a GW branded army game specifically with the GW branded characters of that setting, well, you have limited yourself outside of alternatives (or just keep using AoS 2 books).

As for the comparison to LEGO: Many alternatives are not as well machined so they don't stick sufficiently. Others copied a LEGO box to the brick (Leipin). I don't think someone making a humanoid in a different style but cheaper is the same as someone making a knockoff of the real product that doesn't work as well.

And yes, I don't like STLs that are just a copy of the plastic GW thing, but love new things that fit well within the aesthetic (like 

)

Edited February 11, 2022 by zilberfrid

[Flippy]

13 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

Kids are very vulnerable to marketing and "hype" because they aren't fully developed. What is our excuse?

Do we need any? I can see the hype thread 3292 pages long on this grown-ups forum. People are living for this hype.

15 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

They most certainly do not, beyond the mind tricks from marketing.

I often tell people to settle for Toyota and yet they end up with Mercedes or BMW. There is a lot of marketing in this and they don't really need the BMW. Maybe building up defenses as kids would have been good.