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AoS 3 - Kruleboyz Discussion


Arzalyn

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7 hours ago, Rors said:

There's a good chance they know that's not it but can't say "we wrote ****** rules".

It's the same when they talk about "margin of error" for the balances to suggest that most armies are actually at a 50% win rate. There's a really good break down of it by the Honest Wargamer.

Anyway, I'd likely think this faction and gits will get the biggest improvements and it's unlikely they actually think it's dounty hunters causing the problem since they have the data. Even if they did though, unless they specifically made a rule that interacts with that key word, making the faction stronger against bounty hunters by making them cheaper or killier or sneakier or whatever, will still improve the win rate.

Margin of error is a real thing in statistics. Its a measure of how inaccurate your results might be. Aiming for that 45-55% winrate band is the ideal that most games aim for. Doesn't mean you should stop balancing once you get there, but anything that falls out of it should become a high priority to address.

3 hours ago, Rachmani said:

Kruleboys will need some point drops, but that will be band aids.

As of now they just throw too many dice to maybe get some effects. A lot of streamlining is needed. Maybe even a 3.1. battle tome.

But all in all they’re quite fixable, although they might need a second wave for that.

We don't need a second wave or a new tome, just some aggressive adjustments and some rewrites that will change the playstyle.

The biggest changes that need to happen are:

-Gutrippa rewrite: We don't just need them "playable" the army really needs an efficient aggressively costed frontline unit so it can push onto objectives. Give them a 4+ save, have skareshields give a -1 to be hit in melee, and drop them to 150 points.

-Allegiance ability rewrite: We barely have allegiance abilities. Two once per games, and a warscroll ability that was moved into the allegiance ability section. Kruleboyz need something that works turn after turn. Make dirty tricks always do something, then also make it once per battle round or introduce another allegiance ability like army-wide retreat & charge or something to generate CP.

Theres a bunch of other minor issues like bad artefacts, and the shaman, but I think those 2 are the most important.

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17 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Margin of error is a real thing in statistics. Its a measure of how inaccurate your results might be. Aiming for that 45-55% winrate band is the ideal that most games aim for. Doesn't mean you should stop balancing once you get there, but anything that falls out of it should become a high priority to address.

Yes margin of error is real, it's their spin that's BS. An army that is sitting on 50% might be at the 45% to 55% depending on what way the error swings. They're biasing their stats to only recognize a positive margin for 45% and a negative margin for 55% so basically, they're selling a 10% margin of error while pretending it's 5%. The reason they're doing that (IMO) is because they actually care more about perception of game ballance than having a super accurate means of measurement. Margin of error is there to help sell that narrative not to improve their balance strategy moving forward.

It's still a positive move and I'm glad they're doing it. It's just that like with the statement that bounty hunters are responsible for Kruelboys lower win rate, you need to sort out what's actually the data and what's PR from the marketing team.

Edited by Rors
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It's simple what GW has to do for this alliance: remove many die rolls from traits (example: "choose D3 unreinforced units and remove them from the battlefield") and decrease the point costs of several units, including Gutrippaz, Killa- Bow, Sludgeraker and Bolt-Boyz (in order of urgency).

Then if I really want to do "a great job" they also fix Skull bugz. I don't know how.

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22 minutes ago, Holy_Diver said:

It's simple what GW has to do for this alliance: remove many die rolls from traits (example: "choose D3 unreinforced units and remove them from the battlefield") and decrease the point costs of several units, including Gutrippaz, Killa- Bow, Sludgeraker and Bolt-Boyz (in order of urgency).

Then if I really want to do "a great job" they also fix Skull bugz. I don't know how.

Killbow is too niche to be anything but a tech piece. The only way it sees regular play is in a high wound monster meta or if they point it so low you just spam them. Like if they were 80-90 points you'd just take them as screens that are sometimes amazing.

Boltboyz have a scroll issue. Their damage and points are fine, but the way hasty shot works reduces their threat range to 24", or 27 in big yellerz, which is pretty low for a long range unit. Longstrikes have 36" and skyfires have 40". Even sentinels still have 30".

Sludgerakers are good for their points but could go down to give KB a boost.

Gutrippaz also have a scroll issue, but could be made playable through an aggressive point drop since they're just meant to be meat

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I remember when the Kruleboyz were revealed, I think it was on a WarCom article that Gutrippas were sold as the "horde" unit in the army as Orruks can be quite hordey. Then we got the scrolls and 10 models for 180pts is the opposite of a horde. Yes, they have 2 wounds each but it's behind a really bad save and the usual "Destruction has to have poor Bravery" stat so any casualties cause havoc in the Battleshock phase without taking either Killabosses or saving a CP for Insane Bravery which will only save one unit. Obviosuly that's compounded by GV and BH now because it's really easy to wipe out a unit as their defensive tech in the Skareshield might as well not be there in the majority of cases. 

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4 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Killbow is too niche to be anything but a tech piece. The only way it sees regular play is in a high wound monster meta or if they point it so low you just spam them. Like if they were 80-90 points you'd just take them as screens that are sometimes amazing.

As I wrote 🙂

4 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Boltboyz have a scroll issue. Their damage and points are fine, but the way hasty shot works reduces their threat range to 24", or 27 in big yellerz, which is pretty low for a long range unit. 

40 points are fine for for a model with 6+ save, 2 wounds, bravery 5, range 12 "and no universal battline? Pathetic for such a profile 😂 (said like Skinner in The Simpson)

4 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Sludgerakers are good for their points but could go down to give KB a boost. 

The sludgeraker has a good ability (it would be great if not wholly within), but in no case in life can cost more than a Maggot Lord (you pay Orghotts and Bload 300), so 315 is too much for all the performance that I've seen it done.

4 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Gutrippaz also have a scroll issue, but could be made playable through an aggressive point drop since they're just meant to be meat

Here, on the other hand, it could be a question of philosophy: boost the warscroll without touching the cost or the reverse.

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On 10/1/2022 at 9:14 AM, Ganigumo said:

We don't need a second wave or a new tome, just some aggressive adjustments and some rewrites that will change the playstyle.

The biggest changes that need to happen are:

-Gutrippa rewrite: We don't just need them "playable" the army really needs an efficient aggressively costed frontline unit so it can push onto objectives. Give them a 4+ save, have skareshields give a -1 to be hit in melee, and drop them to 150 points.

-Allegiance ability rewrite: We barely have allegiance abilities. Two once per games, and a warscroll ability that was moved into the allegiance ability section. Kruleboyz need something that works turn after turn. Make dirty tricks always do something, then also make it once per battle round or introduce another allegiance ability like army-wide retreat & charge or something to generate CP.

Theres a bunch of other minor issues like bad artefacts, and the shaman, but I think those 2 are the most important.

Totally agree with you here, if they touch one or both of those we would be a much better spot. One of the things i dislike the most while playing with kruleboyz is how little rules we have as a faction. You maybe get to do some tricks before the game start and then you just pray you roll a good amount of 6s...

I wouldn't be surprised if they just give us a new allegiance rule. Even with making the dirty tricks less random (they really should be roll a D3 and pick that many targets) I doubt this alone would be enough to raise our win rate. We need something more rule wise to make the warscrolls we have work.

Of the two points, changing gutrippaz scrolls is probably the surest path to cause a impact. We barely have no-hero options, we nee those to have a place and perform well in those roles to make the army work.

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5 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:

40 points are fine for for a model with 6+ save, 2 wounds, bravery 5, range 12 "and no universal battline? Pathetic for such a profile 😂 (said like Skinner in The Simpson)

The sludgeraker has a good ability (it would be great if not wholly within), but in no case in life can cost more than a Maggot Lord (you pay Orghotts and Bload 300), so 315 is too much for all the performance that I've seen it done.

Boltboyz are generally a good unit though, and are absolutely devastating in the right matchups, they just have crippling weaknesses and are our only threat projection. Plus at only 120 points they don't really have much wiggle room until they become cockatrices. Generally if you need to point something down to being meat+bonus its time for a scroll update.

Sludgeraker has good(if spiky) output for his points, and a good buff. He could come down a bit sure, but hes in a pretty good spot. Nurgle in general should probably go up, given their performance.

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  • 2 weeks later...

What is everyone's wishlist for battles scroll Kruleboyz buffs? I would love any or all of the following but am not getting my hopes up:
- +1 to casting and dispelling for Gobsprak
- Gutrippaz down to 140 points and/or the -1 to hit debuff is more consistent and effects more than one unit 
- You get to pick 2-3 dirty tricks
- Shamans can cast and give poison
- Murknob with Belcha Banner gives another buff as well as magic resist
- Beastskewer Killbow Damage made more consistent or points lowered. Something to make it not just better to bring a unit of boltboyz

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Gutrippaz

Scare shields just becomes a 2d6 vs bravery of attacking unit for -1 to hit. 

Points drop to 160

Consolidated stikkas and hackas profile with hackas stats and stikkas reach. 

-1 rend to weapons

Boltboyz

5+armor

Shaman

cast and elixer if pot grot still alive

Belcha Murk Nob

Changed to a unit with ability to be added to a troop unit and becomes unit champion.

Sloggoth 

2-4 more attacks on trogg. Trogg gains venom encrusted trait and one more kind of buff. Not sure what. 

Killbow

Overall just better performance 

Killa-boss on foot

Able to be added to gutrippaz unit, become champion, unit gains buff. 

Hobgrots

Battline after one mandatory gutrippaz unit. 

More reliable dirty tricks. 

 

Quick wishlist...🙁

 

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i think most of us are pretty aligned, I don't need the faction to be super strong (only playing casual anyways), but Dirty tricks and shaman I would like fixed just so you have more "play". Competitively Gutrippaz I think is main problem holding them down, not sure how fixable they are in BH meta but regardless they are way overcosted as is...

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You wouldn't get any hope up of warscroll changes, GW is pretty resistant to changing warscrolls unless it is rally causing problems (plague monks in the last edition, Archeon and the other factions wide centerpieces). Taking this into account, my hopes would be:

- Fixing dirty tricks to simple by "Roll D3 and pick that many..." for Lethal surprise, Disappearin' act and Covered in Mud.

- A new rule inside our allegiance. I hope something like "deepstrike from table borders" or something similar Genestealers cults have in 40k with Ambush markers would really fit thematically.

- Points changes for Gutrippaz, at least making them 160 points for 10.

If we get any warscroll rewrite, I really hope they do so for Gutrippaz. It would have a bigger impact faction wide, as its our generic battleline and one of our few normal units.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So the Battlepack finally dropped and we got out changes. As expected, nothing massive, just letting the shamans give poison/elixir and still cast and and points drops. While points drops are a little underwhelming, I pleasantly surprised with the amounts we got:

- Gutrippaz are finally at 160 as many of us asked around here many times.

- Killbow, Gobsprakk and both monted killaboss also went down 20 points. I doubt this will help the Killbow at all, but the killaboss options become much more interesting. The Gnashtooth can fill a interesting role as a pretty tank (thanks to its natural 3+ save) and mobile unit for cheap. I personally looking forward to using the the vulcha boss more in the following weeks.

- I doubt anyone saw it coming, but snatchaboss went down 25 points and skumdrekk 30 (now they cost the same, 290). 

Mostly of my lists got around 80 extra points with those changes, which is a extra hobgrot unit for free. Is this enough to make us a better army? I'm not super sure. I imagine this changes will fell much more impactful once the change the battlepack and Bounty hunters stop being a threat to our Gutrippaz and hobgrots. Also, I imagine 2 shamans are now pretty much an auto included in our lists.

On  minor note, I wonder if Skulbugz can be a little more playable now. A list with 2x sludgerakers + 2 vulchas and 2 gutrippaz for the battleline tax got 135 points cheaper, which is pretty significant. I just not sure if the 3+ -1 to hit is that useful. Maybe if the meta stay more melee focused, it could be a interesting place to explore!

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Imo gutrippaz are still too high in the age of bounty hunters, i'll try them out again, but we might need to just wait until the next season.

The point drops are all welcome though. Killbow at 110 means it doesn't feel as bad to use it as a screen in a matchup where its bad, and vultures at 220 is a steal.

I think the shaman change makes gobsprakk a worse option, a big reason to bring him was because shamans rarely cast, but now they can, and he has no bonuses to cast or unique spells.

With the shaman change I wonder if one of our best general options is going to be a swampcalla with master of magic & arcane tome. In grinnin blades he can be pretty safe too.

 

I think the changes are nice overall, but it doesn't even come close to addressing all the issues with the army. I started listbuilding again and was very quickly frustrated, despite being able to fit in an extra 100+ points. The army just doesn't fit into battalions unless you go boltboy spam.

BR only has 1 leader slot, which is hotly contested.

You can fit a single warlord/entourage, but filling 4 sub-commanders is a challenge.

Our BH options are terrible at being BH.

We can run EC but our units aren't well suited to it.

KB definitely need some more fixes, even if this gets the winrate to a better spot. Stuff like dropping the gnashtoof to 9 wounds (it will never really justify a leader slot in this army but as a sub-commander i'm a buyer), giving us a non-leader mirebrute/sludgeraker, giving skulbugz an actual ability and giving gobsprakk a casting bonus or something.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Now we have a (more) reasonable cost for Gutrippas, is something more horde-y possible?

Thinking 50+ Rippas with the usual 1+ Swampracker and 2+ Swampcallers.

30 Alpha Striking Super-Sneaky Gutrippas is more tempting now too.  Against a anyone who isn't screening enough is in for a nasty surprise, throwing a 60 wound unit that is dishing out dozens of mortal wounds is not something may armies can handle. Even more so if you are using them in Grinning Blades and toss them into a flank to minimise the damage coming back at them.

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2 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Now we have a (more) reasonable cost for Gutrippas, is something more horde-y possible?

Thinking 50+ Rippas with the usual 1+ Swampracker and 2+ Swampcallers.

30 Alpha Striking Super-Sneaky Gutrippas is more tempting now too.  Against a anyone who isn't screening enough is in for a nasty surprise, throwing a 60 wound unit that is dishing out dozens of mortal wounds is not something may armies can handle. Even more so if you are using them in Grinning Blades and toss them into a flank to minimise the damage coming back at them.

I think its still bad until bounty hunters rotates, but once that happens there might be some play to gutrippaz, although they could still probably do with another minor buff or point reduction. If you throw the gutrippaz up with the command trait you probably won't have the opportunity to buff them, because the rest of the army will be too far away.

Gutrippaz are in a rough spot designwise.
I think they're pointed with their potential for damage in mind, but they're so bad at getting into that scenario that it shouldn't really be accounted for. Even when you do you'll maybe only get to do it once per game.
The army needs them to be an anvil/attrition unit.

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4 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

I think its still bad until bounty hunters rotates, but once that happens there might be some play to gutrippaz, although they could still probably do with another minor buff or point reduction. If you throw the gutrippaz up with the command trait you probably won't have the opportunity to buff them, because the rest of the army will be too far away.

Gutrippaz are in a rough spot designwise.
I think they're pointed with their potential for damage in mind, but they're so bad at getting into that scenario that it shouldn't really be accounted for. Even when you do you'll maybe only get to do it once per game.
The army needs them to be an anvil/attrition unit.

Complete agreement. That damage potential is just potential, not an actuality, and they are significantly less durable per point than many other equivalent units. I would really love to use the Gutrippaz I got from Dominion in the Big Waaagh list I've been building towards, but 'Ard Boyz are like a million times better as an anvil or chaff, and don't lose out on significant damage in most non-white room scenarios because the Gutrippaz are already mostly dead by the time they can fight as often as not. Gutrippaz really don't serve a role, regardless of taking them in pure KB or BW.

There is an easy fix that would make them at least usable, though--just streamline Skare Taktiks to be -1 to be hit, period (or even just in melee, whatever). I know I'm like the millionth person to suggest it though. I just want Gutrippaz to be good!

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Planning on trying something like this tomorrow nights:

Grinning Blades

Snatchaboss: General (Arcane Tomb, Sneaky Miasma, Supa-Sneaky, Fast-Un)

Skumdrekk

Swampcalla (Chocking Mist)

Swampcalla (Nasty Hex)

Break-Boss (Smelly'Un)

20 Gutruppaz (Bounty Hunters)

10 Gutruppaz (Bounty Hunters)

10 Hobgrots (Expert Conquerors)

10 Hobgrots (Expert Conquerors)

6 Boltboyz

Masrchcrawla Sloggoth

 

Any thoughts on tweaks or advice on how to play it? (PS, not interested in spamming boltboys)  Going to be against Cow and Hammer Lumineth.

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21 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Planning on trying something like this tomorrow nights:

Grinning Blades

Snatchaboss: General (Arcane Tomb, Sneaky Miasma, Supa-Sneaky, Fast-Un)

Skumdrekk

Swampcalla (Chocking Mist)

Swampcalla (Nasty Hex)

Break-Boss (Smelly'Un)

20 Gutruppaz (Bounty Hunters)

10 Gutruppaz (Bounty Hunters)

10 Hobgrots (Expert Conquerors)

10 Hobgrots (Expert Conquerors)

6 Boltboyz

Masrchcrawla Sloggoth

 

Any thoughts on tweaks or advice on how to play it? (PS, not interested in spamming boltboys)  Going to be against Cow and Hammer Lumineth.

If you're not planning on using the poison on the boltboyz running them 2x3 might be better.
Also you've got a pretty melee heavy list, running a swampcalla general with arcane tome and master of magic wouldn't be a bad option. It would help you get off the warscroll spell for +1 to charge armywide, but you'd need to give up the supa-sneaky redeploy.

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18 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

If you're not planning on using the poison on the boltboyz running them 2x3 might be better.
Also you've got a pretty melee heavy list, running a swampcalla general with arcane tome and master of magic wouldn't be a bad option. It would help you get off the warscroll spell for +1 to charge armywide, but you'd need to give up the supa-sneaky redeploy.

Yeah, I like the option to poison the Boltboys and planning on playing them quite aggressively to get some short ranged rapid fire when possible.

Swampcaller general is definitely tempting mainly to get Choking mist off, which is potentially game winning in some match-ups.  I just worry some armies will be any to use indirect weapons to easily snipe off a 6 wound general, even in Grimming blades.  Might give it a bash though as it lets me be more aggressive with two Sludgerakers.

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The game went well last night.  Against some reasonably competitive Lumineth (Focused on Cow/Stoneguard) and won it quite comfortably in the end.  The combination of a super sneaky Troggoth, expert conquer Grots, my shooting and Grinning blades forced him forwards so I was able to engage away from objectives he held (so no mortal wound save), then the Gut rippas went to work.  Highlight has to be 25 mortals from 10 Gutrippas (fully buffed plus bounty hunters, 5 5s and 5 6s, nice) and lowlight a Swampraker doing 0 damage to the big cow.

Really liking the faction so far, not easy to use effectively and very swinging damage, but that makes for fun games.  

For next time, I'm tempted to go down to 1 Egomanic Swampraker to get some more warm bodies in.  The army feels so fragile when your spending so much on heros and Bolt-boys.

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