Combining Zombies in Matched Play

[klunc]

So I had always thought that in Matched Play you could take smaller units of Zombies and combine them. 

On the latest Facehammer, Terry was talking about how you can't do that because you're taking a unit beyond it's starting size? I had always thought about it as taking two separate units and making it one new one.

So what's a necromancer to do?

[shinros]

I think the zombies are a unique case because there is a specific rule that allows them to do that. That's the good thing about zombies honestly Death need's a battle tome already. 

[Duke Khadric]

As long as the unit doesn't exceed the maximum unit size of 60 when you combine the zombie units, I don't see the the problem with it. It's an ability on the warscroll fair and square. The wording in the matches play section says that a unit can't exceed its maximum size. I've been fielding a units of 20 and 30 zombies, combining and that is legal.

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[Nico]

I don't even see how the 60 cap is relevant - that's a limit on list building/deployment as distinct from a rule like no unit can have more than 40 wounds.

I keep hearing about the mass zombie horde but it never seems to find its way to the tournaments. Perhaps movement 4 plus paint boredom is the stumbling block.

[shinros]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

I don't even see how the 60 cap is relevant - that's a limit on list building/deployment as distinct from a rule like no unit can have more than 40 wounds.

I keep hearing about the mass zombie horde but it never seems to find its way to the tournaments. Perhaps movement 4 plus paint boredom is the stumbling block.

Yeah, personally waiting for possible new zombies before I invest in doing a horde. I will glady do horde's of skeletons I like their models and painting them. 

[Undead4Life]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

I don't even see how the 60 cap is relevant - that's a limit on list building/deployment as distinct from a rule like no unit can have more than 40 wounds.

I keep hearing about the mass zombie horde but it never seems to find its way to the tournaments. Perhaps movement 4 plus paint boredom is the stumbling block.

I'd like to run nothing but Nagash and zombies in 2k; perhaps a Necro and Corpse cart at the back for buffs...

 

EDIT: this might work better:

Vamp

Vamp

Necro

Necro

Cart

Cart

220 Zombies

2000 points even

[Chris Tomlin]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

I keep hearing about the mass zombie horde but it never seems to find its way to the tournaments. Perhaps movement 4 plus paint boredom is the stumbling block.

I played against it at Warlords. 30 + 2x 10 that merged into a horde of 50!! Took the Brutes a fair while to hack through that, all the while my army was dying to a Zombie Dragon, Mourngul, Spirit Hosts etc!! Hard times.

[Duke Khadric]

Zombies, in large units, corpse cart and a Necromancer is a fantastic wave which will slowly but surely make its way across the table. It's fun too hehe. 50 zombies and a corpse cart mean they're hitting on 2s, wounding on 3s. Necromancer casts van hels on them so they pile in and attack twice. They'll take the damage, but at the end of the combat phase any models they've slain come back as a zombie on a 6, then in your next hero phase the banner brings back D6 of them too!

They're not invincible. The only army I've played which has really negated them are Ogors. 2 units of 6 Ogors destroyed a unit of 40 zombies in one round of combat.

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[Nico]

So you have the 150 Zombies merge to form an infinite tarpit and you plonk it down in front of your synergised long range, -1 rend shooting units and a few artillery pieces and let the enemy come to you.

What's missing from the above? Zombros would be wonderful with Judicators or Kurnoth Hunters, but what do Death have? Skeleton Archers are now feeble and short ranged and slow to boot. Ushabti are almost unbuffable and pale in comparison to Hunters (they are at least cheap and tough). I just don't see a way around the movement issue. You will not be threatening enemy gun lines (6 out of 6 of my opponents over the weekend, so let's say 60% of lists) until the later turns. They can just happily walk backwards while plugging away.

[klunc]

Cheers guys. I had 3 x 20 in my list and was combining them. Was worried that I may have to stop.

[Duke Khadric]

Yeah, personally waiting for possible new zombies before I invest in doing a horde. I will glady do horde's of skeletons I like their models and painting them. 

I've never been a huge fan of GW zombies, that's why I went with Mantic:

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[Duke Khadric]

I don't even see how the 60 cap is relevant - that's a limit on list building/deployment as distinct from a rule like no unit can have more than 40 wounds.

I keep hearing about the mass zombie horde but it never seems to find its way to the tournaments. Perhaps movement 4 plus paint boredom is the stumbling block.

The 60 models cap for the unit is relevant because that's what's written in the GHB. I can see where you're coming from though, it only applying to initial deployment unit sizes. If we all want to get technical, it doesn't specify that. What it does say, however, is that units cannot exceed their maximum unit size.

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[MechaBriZilla]

15 hours ago, Duke Khadric said:

The 60 models cap for the unit is relevant because that's what's written in the GHB. I can see where you're coming from though, it only applying to initial deployment unit sizes. If we all want to get technical, it doesn't specify that. What it does say, however, is that units cannot exceed their maximum unit size.

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But following that to the letter of the law would mean that the Zombie rule allowing them to merge, would be nearly useless.  I think in this case I'd go with the warscroll and allow an opponent to combine units as much as wanted, or at least until there is an official FAQ.  Just seems like this rule is what makes Zombies special.  

If I were using Zombies, I'd be sure to get talk with an opponent/TO before building my list with this strategy.  

[David Griffin]

I actually brought this up on Warhammer Weekly (Vince Venturella's Youtube show) last night. I think this deserves to be posted on the the GW Facebook page to see if we can get it FAQ'ed. If you can't merge zombies, they certainly lose a great deal of appeal.

[Countmoore]

19 hours ago, David Griffin said:

I actually brought this up on Warhammer Weekly (Vince Venturella's Youtube show) last night. I think this deserves to be posted on the the GW Facebook page to see if we can get it FAQ'ed. If you can't merge zombies, they certainly lose a great deal of appeal.

Already done ?

T

[David Griffin]

4 hours ago, Countmoore said:

Already done ?

T

Boom! Think you could reply back here when you get an answer?

[WSDdeloach]

I've run this list before.. 

Nagash 

x6 morgahst (2) 

x3 zombies (20) 

thats 60 zombies on board. Sometimes I'll start with up too 40 in summoning. Bring them in to create tar pits, let the morgahst get in there and wreck it up. Or I'll smush zombies into a big horde to hold objectives. Zombies are strong 

[Countmoore]

On 16 September 2016 at 3:08 PM, David Griffin said:

Boom! Think you could reply back here when you get an answer?

Of course

[MightyQwan]

On 14/09/2016 at 5:58 PM, Duke Khadric said:

I've never been a huge fan of GW zombies, that's why I went with Mantic:

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How is the scale compared to GW. I know they are both 28mm but GW uses a heroic scale rather than true scale. Do they looknow out of place or frail compared with the rest of your army?

[Duke Khadric]

How is the scale compared to GW. I know they are both 28mm but GW uses a heroic scale rather than true scale. Do they looknow out of place or frail compared with the rest of your army?

No they look great! They're a unique continent of my army that fits in well.

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[Duke Khadric]

Of course

I'd also be very keen to know if there is a ruling on this too.

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[Duke Khadric]

As long as the unit doesn't exceed the maximum unit size of 60 when you combine the zombie units, I don't see the the problem with it. It's an ability on the warscroll fair and square. The wording in the matches play section says that a unit can't exceed its maximum size. I've been fielding a units of 20 and 30 zombies, combining and that is legal.

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I do need to correct this statement. On page 108 of the GHB it does say: "Spells or abilities that allow you to add models to existing units don’t cost you any reinforcement points. However, in a Pitched Battle, spells or abilities cannot increase the number of models in a unit to more than it had at the start of the battle (i.e. they can replace slain models but not create new models for a unit)."

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[Duke Khadric]

Would the above statement apply to the merging ability? It does say "spells or abilities" However, if you took 2 units - this with 20 and that with 30, when they are reduced throughout the battle, you could merge them, however not so the model count went above 30 - with the 30 unit becoming the "parent" unit as the smaller 20 unit disappears and becomes a part of the 30 unit. Thoughts?

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[WSDdeloach]

So. According to shambling horde.. After said hero phase. The units size is now what ever it has become. I.E. 10 zombie with a 20 zombie is now a 30 unit. So according to rules as written, the new starting size is 30. So you can re summon to that amount for that unit. 

[Andreas]

2 hours ago, WSDdeloach said:

So. According to shambling horde.. After said hero phase. The units size is now what ever it has become. I.E. 10 zombie with a 20 zombie is now a 30 unit. So according to rules as written, the new starting size is 30. So you can re summon to that amount for that unit. 

I agree that this is the way we should play it, maybe with some house rule to cap the absolut maximum, but to say that rules as written states that the new starting size is 30 is stretching it IMO.