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Cycle of the storm stormcast battletome


Tizianolol
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FAQ is released:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/eC2wlUtZJDX0ByXi.pdf

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Q: If I use the Lord-Arcanum’s Cycle of the Storm to heal a wound on a model instead of it being slain, what happens to any wounds that remain to be allocated?

A: Continue to allocate them as normal. Cycle of the Storm will not always stop a model from being slain, but it will require an extra wound to be caused in order to do so

 

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RAW is currently a mess, my best recommendation is to play it as it used to work;

When a model in range is slain, you can trigger the ability to heal one wound and they are no longer slain. If there are still wounds to be allocated, keep doing so. This means that if there is any damage 'left over' they will die again.

Notably they ARE slain and any abilities which trigger based on that (Blaze of Glory) will go off. They are not removed from play however, so a rule which requires a model to be removed from play will not trigger. 1.6.2 (the rule for simultaneous effects) can be helpful here.

If you are going to a tournament or event, however, it would be best to ask the TO how the rule will be handled.

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Here is a discussion about Cycle of the Storm that already has 4 pages:

 

I think the main problem is that the rule itself is a copy & paste of the rule from the Stormcast Eternals Battletome of 2018, while the way wounds are allocated and models removed have changed with 3. Edition.

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12 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

RAW is currently a mess, my best recommendation is to play it as it used to work;

When a model in range is slain, you can trigger the ability to heal one wound and they are no longer slain. If there are still wounds to be allocated, keep doing so. This means that if there is any damage 'left over' they will die again.

Notably they ARE slain and any abilities which trigger based on that (Blaze of Glory) will go off. They are not removed from play however, so a rule which requires a model to be removed from play will not trigger. 1.6.2 (the rule for simultaneous effects) can be helpful here.

If you are going to a tournament or event, however, it would be best to ask the TO how the rule will be handled.

This is definitely the most "common sense" approach to the rule.

There is also the issue regarding wounds being negated in this instance, the rules say "If a unit is destroyed, all wounds that remain to be allocated to the unit are negated and have no effect." 

3.1 informs us that "A unit is destroyed when the last model in the unit is removed from play". 

So you don't negate the wounds after all models are slain, you negate them after all models are removed.

CotS prevents the model being removed, therefore you don't get to negate the remaining wounds.

You can either stuck in a loop where the game can't proceed, or you accept that the rule still works like it did before, effectively healing 1 wound and allowing you a second chance to active abilities that occur when slain, such as Blaze.

 

Edited by Liquidsteel
destroyed is codified
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7 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

This is definitely the most "common sense" approach to the rule.

There is also the issue regarding wounds being negated in this instance, the rules say "If a unit is destroyed, all wounds that remain to be allocated to the unit are negated and have no effect." 

3.1 informs us that "A unit is destroyed when the last model in the unit is removed from play". 

So you don't negate the wounds after all models are slain, you negate them after all models are removed.

CotS prevents the model being removed, therefore you don't get to negate the remaining wounds.

You can either stuck in a loop where the game can't proceed, or you accept that the rule still works like it did before, effectively healing 1 wound and allowing you a second chance to active abilities that occur when slain, such as Blaze.

 

Cycle cannot work the way it used to work, because you remove models after allocating wounds. There is no way it can function the way it did in the previous edition unless you are purposefully playing the game wrong.

Cycle actually works just fine RAW. The issue here is not Cycle, but rather that the core rules are not clear and potentially have a paradox built into them, as you pointed out. Changing the wording of Cycle does not fix the issue in the core rules.

There is now a distinction between a slain model and a removed model. These terms were synonymous in 2nd edition, but that is not the case in 3rd edition. However, it seems some of the rules do not account for this change. In particular, 1.3 defining a destroyed unit and 14.2 stating that remaining wounds allocated to a destroyed unit are negated. These two clauses do not strictly prohibit remaining wounds from being negated after all models are slain but before models are removed, but it would be good if the rules were consistent and clear.

So either:

1. Overkill damage is also negated before you remove models (the rules do not explicitly state this, but it can be inferred); or

2. The definition of "destroyed unit" in 1.3 is wrong and it should read: "A unit is destroyed when all models in the unit are slain"; or

3. All of 14.2 is wrong - models are removed as soon as they are slain like in 2nd edition, and Cycle is a garbage ability again

I don't think it's #3 because they specifically changed how wounds were allocated and models were removed in 3rd edition. That sort of change is not done by accident... unless GW is completely incompetent :P

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17 hours ago, PJetski said:

Cycle cannot work the way it used to work, because you remove models after allocating wounds. There is no way it can function the way it did in the previous edition unless you are purposefully playing the game wrong.

Cycle actually works just fine RAW. The issue here is not Cycle, but rather that the core rules are not clear and potentially have a paradox built into them, as you pointed out. Changing the wording of Cycle does not fix the issue in the core rules.

There is now a distinction between a slain model and a removed model. These terms were synonymous in 2nd edition, but that is not the case in 3rd edition. However, it seems some of the rules do not account for this change. In particular, 1.3 defining a destroyed unit and 14.2 stating that remaining wounds allocated to a destroyed unit are negated. These two clauses do not strictly prohibit remaining wounds from being negated after all models are slain but before models are removed, but it would be good if the rules were consistent and clear.

So either:

1. Overkill damage is also negated before you remove models (the rules do not explicitly state this, but it can be inferred); or

2. The definition of "destroyed unit" in 1.3 is wrong and it should read: "A unit is destroyed when all models in the unit are slain"; or

3. All of 14.2 is wrong - models are removed as soon as they are slain like in 2nd edition, and Cycle is a garbage ability again

I don't think it's #3 because they specifically changed how wounds were allocated and models were removed in 3rd edition. That sort of change is not done by accident... unless GW is completely incompetent :P

I think it's pretty clear now that your interpretation of this interaction does not work RAW; it's a paradox and the game just breaks, primarily because of the definition of destroyed. You're also going down the route of what was intended now, which you were very quick to dismiss at the start, so let's leave it there.

This is a case where you can't follow RAW and you must make a call on how you will rule it, regardless of whether this is "purposefully playing the game wrong" or not.

From what I have seen discussed, the general consensus seems to be that you follow the old FAQ's guidance, and the model simply negates 1 wound, but still triggers anything regarding being slain. This is how a couple of local TOs that run big events in my region have said they would rule it, if someone tried this.

I hope the FAQ comes out soon and puts this to rest though.

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11 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys anyone can explain me how that works? Its not so clear in the battletome.. thx all

I made a video about this

I used the thread @EMMachine linked to work through my thoughts before putting the conclusions into video form.

It seems to work this way RAW, but I would wait for GW to make a statement about it before you make any decisions about your lists or purchases

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