Cycle of the Storm is incredibly strong because of 14.2

[PJetski]

This discussion came up in the Stormkeep discord

In 2nd edition:

"Once the number of wounds allocated to a model during the battle equals its Wounds characteristic, the model is slain. Place a slain model to one side - it is removed from play"

A model would die as soon as you allocated wounds to it. The FAQ clarified that the model would be removed from play instantly, before another wound was allocated to the unit, then you would continue allocating wounds. Cycle of the Storm would trigger at this point to revive the model and heal 1 wound. Then you continue allocating wounds, and the model would die again.

So if a model with 2 wounds took 5 damage, it would take 2 > die > heal 1 > take 1 > die, and the remaining 2 damage ("overkill") would be negated.

 

However, this has changed in 3rd edition:

Section 14.2 reads: "Once the number of wounds allocated to a model equals its Wounds characteristic, the model is slain and you cannot allocate any more wounds to it. A slain model is removed from play after all of the wounds caused to its unit have been allocated and all attacks that inflicted damage on the unit have been resolved" (emphasis mine)

The 2nd edition FAQ is no longer relevant, nor is it consistent with the new wording of how wounds are allocated and how models are slain. In 3rd edition you allocate wounds and count models as "slain", but you do not remove them until you allocate all the wounds and resolve all attacks from the unit that is attacking. Since you cannot allocate wounds to a slain model (14.2), all "overkill" damage must be negated before you try to remove any models. This difference is timing is important because many abilities activate when a model is "removed from play". 

Cycle of the Storm says: "Once per turn, if a friendly STORMCAST ETERNALS model is slain within 18" of this unit, instead of removing that model from play, you can heal 1 wound allocated to it and the model does not count as having been slain."

You can allocate 15 damage to a model with 5 wounds, it is "slain", the 10 overkill damage is negated, then the model is revived and healed 1 wound by Cycle. What this effectively means is that Cycle of the Storm allows one model in a unit to survive an infinite amount of damage from a single attack sequence.

Please correct me if you see any errors in this logic. I want to understand how this ability works.

[Kelsicle]

To clarify, is your theory that a unit with one model in it or any single model will continue to revive with one wound at the end of the attack sequence as long as it can have Cycle of the Storm applied to it due to the sequence in which wounds are allocated and models are slain and removed?

[PJetski]

17 minutes ago, Kelsicle said:

To clarify, is your theory that a unit with one model in it or any single model will continue to revive with one wound at the end of the attack sequence as long as it can have Cycle of the Storm applied to it due to the sequence in which wounds are allocated and models are slain and removed?

Well, once per turn as Cycle states. If you have multiple Cycles you could survive two attack sequences in a turn.

But basically yes that is the argument. The core of the argument is that since:

a) wounds cannot be allocated to a "slain" model; and

b) "slain" models are removed after all wounds are allocated and attacks are resolved

Therefore all "overkill" damage is negated before removing the model, and Cycle triggers when you remove the model, which happens after wounds are finished allocating. Therefore when Cycle triggers it heals 1 wound and the model survives regardless of how much "overkill" was done.

[Zaiko888]

I think it's going to be played as this.. model "dies", trigger mortal wound roll, brought back to 1 life, "dies" again with excess damage, retriggers mortal wound roll, rest of damage allocated to rest of unit. That seems like the intention and how almost every TO would rule it

But I see why you're saying that the last model can always be brought back because cycle of the storm is triggering after. Just don't think any TO would ever rule it that way nor would anyone want to play anyone trying to do that. The arcanums are clearly not pointed with this way of playing it. Think of how ridiculous an army of arcanums and praetors would be lol.

 

 

[yukishiro1]

RAW that seems right re: it stopping something from dying during that particular application of damage, whether it's from an attack sequence, a spell, a stomp, etc, In terms of whether that's intended...who knows? It seems odd they would have intended the change to make the ability so much better, but by the same token, it was complete junk before, so maybe it would make sense to have it, well, actually do something?

The interaction with the guy who heals all wounds at the end of the every phase if he kills anything strikes me as a good clue it probably isn't intended, though. Unless they actually intended that combo to work...but that seems unlikely given the way each thing is pointed. 

I don't think it's nearly as gamebreaking as allowing movement after translocate, and I'm shocked by how many people think that's the way it should be played. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Beliman]

I think that this rules is broken, I don't even know if it can be played. If I understand how it works:

1. A unit with 10 models of 2 wounds is hit by 15 dmg.
2. You allocate all wounds to the unit, and 6 models are "slain", 1 of them is wounded and 2 models are completely healthy. Cycle of Storm triggers when the first model is slain, but the effect is done when "removing the slain model".
3. AoS 3.0 says "A slain model is removed from play (see 1.2.2) after all of the wounds caused to its unit have been allocated and all attacks that inflicted damage on the unit have been resolved". So you remove the models but the first one, instead of being removed, is healed with 1 wound.
4. The whole unit has 2 models with 1 wound, breaking the rules.

Note: In this case, you "heal" a model (remove a wound). So, even if you end with two wounded models in the same unit, the rules are not broken.

Quote

...once you have allocated a wound to a model, you cannot allocate wounds to other models in the unit until that model is slain.

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Beliman

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, it has the potential to end up with a unit with two models that are missing wounds, something that isn't supposed to be possible the way the rules are set up. It's a bit of a mess for sure. 

[Liquidsteel]

The FAQ to the FAQ provided somewhat of a response to this, which seems to probably have been aimed at the change to Horrors of Tzeentch warscroll, but you can likely infer how it should and will be ruled in this case also. I'm aware you can get around it RAW, but let's be honest, nobody will let you actually play it that way.

"Q: If a model is removed from play while it has wounds allocated to it, but it is not slain, does this mean I can no longer allocate wounds to that model and therefore that unit?

A: No. The wounds allocated to that model have no further effect and you must continue allocating wounds that remain to be allocated to its  unit  as  normal."

[macrake]

The overkill damage would continue being allocated to the rest of the unit, and afterwards the one model would be healed to 1 wound.

But I would play it the way the old FAQ intended. It basically negates a wound, or more importantly, slayer of kings/hand of dust, and can trigger blaze of glory multiple times.

[PJetski]

7 hours ago, Beliman said:

I think that this rules is broken, I don't even know if it can be played. If I understand how it works:

1. A unit with 10 models of 2 wounds is hit by 15 dmg.
2. You allocate all wounds to the unit, and 6 models are "slain", 1 of them is wounded and 2 models are completely healthy. Cycle of Storm triggers when the first model is slain, but the effect is done when "removing the slain model".
3. AoS 3.0 says "A slain model is removed from play (see 1.2.2) after all of the wounds caused to its unit have been allocated and all attacks that inflicted damage on the unit have been resolved". So you remove the models but the first one, instead of being removed, is healed with 1 wound.
4. The whole unit has 2 models with 1 wound, breaking the rules.

Note: In this case, you "heal" a model (remove a wound). So, even if you end with two wounded models in the same unit, the rules are not broken.

 

Cycle of the Storm triggers when you try to remove a slain model, not necessarily the first model in a unit.

Also worth noting that Cycle does not trigger from a model being slain, but rather when it is removed. It doesn't say "when a model is slain" it says "if a model is slain, instead of removing it from play".

I think you are correct that you can end up with a unit that has two wounded models in a unit if you are dealt enough damage to slay one model and damage another, but not enough to destroy the whole unit.

 

There is a clause in 14.1 that says "If a unit is destroyed, all wounds that remain to be allocated to the unit are negated and have no effect." Unfortunately they don't define "destroyed" anywhere, but the most reasonable interpretation is that a destroyed unit is "a unit in which all models are slain".

  

3 hours ago, macrake said:

The overkill damage would continue being allocated to the rest of the unit, and afterwards the one model would be healed to 1 wound.

But I would play it the way the old FAQ intended. It basically negates a wound, or more importantly, slayer of kings/hand of dust, and can trigger blaze of glory multiple times.

The old way is not consistent with 14.2

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by PJetski

[macrake]

6 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Also worth noting that Cycle does not trigger from a model being slain, but rather when it is removed. It doesn't say "when a model is slain" it says "if a model is slain, instead of removing it from play".

Disagree. The ability triggers if a model is slain. The effect of the ability happens instead of removing the model.

 

11 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The old way is not consistent with 14.2

Sure, but do you really want to argue this at a tourney, when there's an FAQ that specifies how wounds are allocated, when cycle of the storm happens? I would never try to argue this wierd mechanic to a TO.

I mean it would be hilarious to have SDG splitting wounds amongst the models.

[PJetski]

5 minutes ago, macrake said:

Disagree. The ability triggers if a model is slain. The effect of the ability happens instead of removing the model.

 

Sure, but do you really want to argue this at a tourney, when there's an FAQ that specifies how wounds are allocated, when cycle of the storm happens? I would never try to argue this wierd mechanic to a TO.

I mean it would be hilarious to have SDG splitting wounds amongst the models.

You disagree but wrote the exact same thing...? Maybe you should actually read what I wrote  

It's a very clearly defined interaction - you don't remove models until all wounds are finished being allocated, and Cycle triggers when you remove a model.

I don't really care about the house rules made by your local tournament

[Zaiko888]

Let us know then what GT lets you play it this way you're saying... Can't see that happening

But they should really just put more designers notes in the book that lay out intention. Either way it's a good question to email in for the FAQ 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Zaiko888

[macrake]

8 minutes ago, PJetski said:

You disagree but wrote the exact same thing...? Maybe you should actually read what I wrote  

It's a very clearly defined interaction - you don't remove models until all wounds are finished being allocated, and Cycle triggers when you remove a model.

I don't really care about the house rules made by your local tournament

You wrote that cycle does NOT trigger on slain. Thats what I disagree with.

Also, the interaction isn't clear at all, because cycle has a specific FAQ that contradicts 14.3

But you have convinced yourself that you're right, so have fun with that.

 

[PJetski]

7 minutes ago, Zaiko888 said:

Let us know then what GT lets you play it this way you're saying... Can't see that happening

But they should really just put more designers notes in the book that lay out intention. Either way it's a good question to email in for the FAQ 

 I would definitely like more designer notes so I wouldn't have to hear people make appeals to the authority of random anonymous tournament organizers and their house rules.

3 minutes ago, macrake said:

You wrote that cycle does NOT trigger on slain. Thats what I disagree with.

Also, the interaction isn't clear at all, because cycle has a specific FAQ that contradicts 14.3

Cycle does not trigger when a model is slain. It triggers if a model is slain and when you try to remove that model. That is a distinct difference in timing.

Which "specific FAQ" are you referencing? The 2nd edition FAQ is never relevant when discussing 3rd edition rules. I don't see how 14.3 is relevant to the discussion here, I'm assuming you meant to write 14.2

Leave the personal attacks out of this my dude; it only looks bad on you.

Edited September 28, 2021 by PJetski

[RuneBrush]

+++ MOD HAT +++

One for aosfaq@gwplc.com I feel 😉

[Rayst]

sorry for changing a little the topic.

 

but what happens if someone makes 20 wounds to a hero model (7 wounds).

the hero stays with 1 wound or dies cuz the over kill?

Thanks

[Liquidsteel]

3 minutes ago, Rayst said:

sorry for changing a little the topic.

 

but what happens if someone makes 20 wounds to a hero model (7 wounds).

the hero stays with 1 wound or dies cuz the over kill?

Thanks

He still dies, he just gets to ignore the first wound that "kills" him.

[Donut Assassin]

If you completely get rid of all thoughts related to AOS 2.0, and read the rules for cycle of the storm and rules for wounds in AOS 3.0…. Then if a single model in a unit with 2 wounds left, get allocate 10 wounds from a attack. That model is slain with the first 2 wounds (do not remove model yet), then remaining 8 wounds are negated as per rules for wounds in 3.0, then the model would be removed from play but cycle of storm ability triggers and the model remains in play with 1 wound. Without a 3.0 faq on this ability, this is clearly how this works, intentions of writers should be left out of discussion. Otherwise there is so many things that could be opinionated as not how something was intended to work.

[PJetski]

4 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

He still dies, he just gets to ignore the first wound that "kills" him.

That is how it worked in 2nd edition. Since the 3rd edition core rules have changed how wounds are allocated and when slain models are removed, that is no longer how it works.

15 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

+++ MOD HAT +++

One for aosfaq@gwplc.com I feel 😉

Definitely going in my FAQ email, along with things like asking why the Lord-Aquilor doesn't have the GRYPH-CHARGER or VANGUARD keywords.

I wanted to bring attention to it in this forum because it seems to be a big change in how these rules work compared to 2nd edition.

[Zaiko888]

It just needs FAQd and hopefully they'll do it.

If it worked this way which I doubt it will be played that way...  couldn't you just take 3 Lord arcanums and you'd have to kill all 3 in the same turn. Then 2 would be brought back because the last can't use it on itself and they'd both have to be killed again the next turn. Then the final one killed the turn after.. lol. Then add emerald lifeswarm or or do it in living city with lots of trash units. That'd be a level of jank not sure I've seen in a long time. 

 

 

[Liquidsteel]

Not sure if it was missed or ignored when I posted earlier, but the 3.0 Core Rules FAQ did get an update on what to do with excess wounds when you encounter models being removed but not slain, as people were pointing out that the new Horrors of Tzeentch warscroll would allow you to ignore infinite wounds also, similar to Cycle of the Storm.

I think it shows quite clearly what the intent is, and effectively infers that you can remove models then keep on allocating wounds to a unit.

"Q: If a model is removed from play while it has wounds allocated to it, but it is not slain, does this mean I can no longer allocate wounds to that model and therefore that unit?

A: No. The wounds allocated to that model have no further effect and you must continue allocating wounds that remain to be allocated to its  unit  as  normal."

[macrake]

This is still part of the SC errata. I dont think we can just ignore it. Cycle stops a model from being slain.

1. If you think cycle triggers if a model is slain, then 14.2 doesn't matter and the ability functions just like it always has.

2. If you think cycle triggers when a model is removed, then things don't function.

Personally, I read cycle as option 1.

[PJetski]

1 minute ago, macrake said:

This is still part of the SC errata. I dont think we can just ignore it. Cycle stops a model from being slain.

1. If you think cycle triggers if a model is slain, then 14.2 doesn't matter and the ability functions just like it always has.

2. If you think cycle triggers when a model is removed, then things don't function.

Personally, I read cycle as option 1.

Why would you consider an errata published before the current battletome to be relevant to the current battletome?

[Beliman]

11 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Why would you consider an errata published before the current battletome to be relevant to the current battletome?

The main problems are on the Core Rules and the interaction with allocating wounds, slain models and all this BS.  This FAQ was made after Core Rules and it can/must be used until a new FAQ is released (maybe this friday?).

Edited September 28, 2021 by Beliman