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New AoS app now available


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4 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

While I understand that we all place value on things differently, and may not find personal value in a given thing, I do have a hard time not seeing the objective value of W+. I mean, sure, I may never have any interest in a Harley Davidson motorcycle customized with an official Man U paint job, but I can still acknowledge that for people who like motorcycles and soccer, that's a nice bike that's probably well made and painted.

Perhaps, another analogy is that:

There is a road here.  It was formally open to all traffic.  (Free Warscrolls / Warscroll Builder)
From now on only Man Utd motorcycles can use the road.  (W+) There may be speed restrictions  (App Quality)
Public transport has also been with drawn.  (Ebooks)
However, you are welcome to walk (Paperbooks only, pen and paper lists).
Tolls will now charged at each intersection regardless of your mode of transport . (Other army info will disappear as new codexes arrive)

That said, i'm not against the concept of a paid app.  If people want all the W+ extras it is a good deal.  Personally, I'm only interested in the gaming aid.  The argument I hear people making is that they feel the same.  However, they feel the quality of the gaming aid is not yet sufficient.   Regardless of price, some people may feel the new offering is not as yet as good as the previous offering regardless of price.

A regular opponent of mine summed it up well for me "So much potential though ... the things they could do if the app got the love it deserved."

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1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

Fair point, and one that's been around for over 30 years. The number of times I've heard a variation on "THIS is the time it costs them" or "THIS is the game that takes out 40K" or the like is uncountable. Yet somehow GW and their "bad" business decisions (that we all just know for sure we could do better than) fends off the challengers, makes better and better stuff, and keeps bringing in the cash.

Of course. As I said, it's a business decision. I never said it wouldn't work.

I think what you might be losing sight of in your incredulity about why people want a better value proposition is that the people asking for better value are the customers GW is, or will be, losing. Their business model is built on getting new players to replace them, burn those players out as well, get new ones, and so on. Endless churn. That works just fine from the business perspective (at least, it has so far) but it's awful from the perspective of those individual players who are on the verge of abandoning the game.

GW won't miss them. But perhaps you might be able to see how other players in the community will?

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App discussion thread needs more app discussion. The old app was much better in all aspects. This new one is copied from the 40k app which barely functions and is riddles with errors that somehow take them way too long to update and fix. This new app also barely works and I have a top of the line new phone. Ive had to uninstall and reinstall to get it to even open again.

Now on the other hand I do like that the overall format, look, and ease of use is improved over the 40k version. Still not as good as the old app, but updated and better then the source it was copied from, the 40k app.

I get that the app is a rules reference but I liked flipping through and reading the stuff in the digital books on the old app too. 

Edited by Malakithe
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27 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

What flummoxed me, as I've said, is anyone coming here and saying "new app is good!" only to immediately follow that with "but it's not good 'cuz I'd have to pay someone for the good thing they are offering to me."

It just. I mean. I.

I don't get that seeming duality.

There is a significant difference between a thing being good vs a thing being a good value. 

On a side note, while checking out the app today I used it to look for new additions to my army. I'm considering adding a stormcast priest of some variety, since the only Idoneth priest is lackluster. This is one example of why the app should be free, as a matter of good business. If I can see and compare the various rule options for the stormcast priests in one place I am very likely to pick one and buy it. All I want is the best one that fits into the points left in my list.

Unfortunately the app stopped working for me when I went to look at the choices again, haha. It won't open anymore and I have tried disabling it and restarting my phone. I suspect I need to uninstall and redownload and will probably try tomorrow. Understandable since it's a new release and in beta. But I'm not buying any of those stormcast priests until I properly understand their rules.

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23 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Now on the other hand I do like that the overall format, look, and ease of use is improved over the 40k version. Still not as good as the old app, but updated and better then the source it was copied from, the 40k app.

I was never a fan of the presentation in the old app, if they can add a tablet mode I think the new will be superior. The Warscrolls look so much nicer but I am not sure if they will be as practical in game as the old format. I thought the Azyr army builder was awful but Stormforge seems quite nice. Not as nice as Warscroll Builder, but having the scrolls integrated in is a big plus.

I didn't encounter any bugs in the iOS version. I saw a few things that needed work though. 

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When it comes to the cost, I'm not too worried here. I'll see if it's worthwhile at the time, subscribe if I think it's worthwhile or not if I don't.

Right now however I Can only see missed opurtunities with this app. Things that should be there but are not.

To the point it makes me wonder if the designers actually play. Here's why:

The army builder has no organisation. Units just go in as i add them to my list. Why are they not organised into leader, battleline,  other etc ? This makes it so much harder to evaluate my army structure as I build. I can't see any information about my units unless I click on them while I'm building, who's my general again?   who's got the artifact? How many artifacts have I chosen so far? That kind of thing. Basically lots of little quality of life fixes that anyone who's built on Azyr would appreciate. Result is I'm constantly going back and forwards just making sure I Havnt missed anything.

It should show me how many enhancements I can use and how many have been used. Why does it not show how many wounds my army has? Why does it not show or give me options for selecting how many drops the army is?

The app looks good, the info needed is mostly there, it could be an awsome tool with a few tweeks but it's just not organised well IMHO for people who are used to building lists and using Azyr while they play.

I understand this app is new and that with time I may Learne to use it better and some of these concerns may go away.. So I'll give it some time. but Except for the warscrolls I don't see what this app will give me over say warscroll builder at this point that makes me want to pay $10 a month for it. And if I don't even get full warscrolls even if I do a paid subscription then I think it's just going to be a waste.

Hopefully I am wrong.

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Wow a lot of negativity the last couple of hours in regards to pricing.

And alot is based on unknown information.

as far as I can see the app, warscrolls and core rules will always be accessible  after the beta, just like the old AoS app. Just check how stormcast and orruks are handeld.

I just hope there will be an extra option to buy the rules digitally (cheap) for people who do not care about the lore. Instead of purchasing the physical book.

I think that old publication will be free for everyone forever as there is no way for GW to check who already has the books or not.

the armybuilder is part of Warhammer+ just like you have to pay for Azyr. The price has increased but there is no reason to assume that the free warscrollbuilder will be taken offline.

so I alot of negatively is not based on fair reasons. 

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If I get a favorite option ( requested via feedback form ) which puts my purchased tomes on top of the list i can see myself use it more. 

Or in the army list when I want check a warscroll I need to tap the unit and then top right. Why not just swipe left or right in the list directly. Saves a step.

As of now it’s clunky at best but I believe it’s incredible hard to create a great UX for an app like that. BattleScribe makes me cry everytime too 🙃

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2 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Their business model is built on getting new players to replace them, burn those players out as well, get new ones, and so on. Endless churn.

Interesting side note from my days in GW trade sales.

Our mantra (one of them) was "new customers are our life's blood." It's not unique to them, of course, and it's the most sensible thing to do - always be recruiting the next customer. New ones are totally untapped. That's all new money, unlike most vet customers.

I will say one little thing about your quote. It's not their model to "burn" out customers. They would be quite happy to keep veteran customers (as long as they stayed actual customers, not ppl who already have all the models they want and now just talk about games), I'm sure, but they are not going to, and should not, focus much on them.

There's no real worry of them ever running out of new customers, by the way. Have you seen all those annoying child-things people keep popping out at every increasing rates? :)

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8 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Interesting side note from my days in GW trade sales.

Our mantra (one of them) was "new customers are our life's blood." It's not unique to them, of course, and it's the most sensible thing to do - always be recruiting the next customer. New ones are totally untapped. That's all new money, unlike most vet customers.

How would u translate this mantra to warhammer+ and the apps? I can honestly not see how this is catering to newer costumers over veterans. They are clearly trying to get money from people who already spent a fortune on their armies and have supported GW for years already. Making veterans feel appreciated and valued also translates to better sales imo. Most of the time they are the ones getting the new customers into the hobby.

23 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Have you seen all those annoying child-things people keep popping out at every increasing rates? :)

People like me also have annoying child things now and if they chase away the parents it will also influence their business right? Cant be that good for business :P.

I also want to see some kind of summary in the app of what i have build so far. And maybe group together unit types. I also would like to see the allies not grouped together with the army u are building. Maybe the can shove them below the main army. It makes me scroll through al kinds of units i dont even own for no reason XD.

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34 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Our mantra (one of them) was "new customers are our life's blood." It's not unique to them, of course, and it's the most sensible thing to do - always be recruiting the next customer. New ones are totally untapped. That's all new money, unlike most vet customers.

"New customers are our life's blood," is a positive-tone way of saying "We have trouble maintaining customer satisfaction in the long term." It's a clear acknowledgement that the underlying business practice is churn and burn.

34 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I will say one little thing about your quote. It's not their model to "burn" out customers. They would be quite happy to keep veteran customers (as long as they stayed actual customers, not ppl who already have all the models they want and now just talk about games), I'm sure, but they are not going to, and should not, focus much on them.

Burning out old customers is what generates churn. If you attract new customers while retaining old ones, you're not churning - that's just growth.

Does anybody ever actually have "all the models they want"? Or do they just keep purchasing models until they either can't afford more or they start feeling that they're not getting enough value for their money?

34 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

There's no real worry of them ever running out of new customers, by the way. Have you seen all those annoying child-things people keep popping out at every increasing rates? :)

Yeah, yet again - I'm not saying GW will financially suffer due to their chosen approach. It's a totally sustainable way to generate income, as long as you can keep attracting new customers as fast or faster than you burn out the old ones, which GW clearly can.

What it does inevitably lead to, though, is a wake of burned-out grognards that are bitter about the way the company has treated them, and people whose gaming buddies have had to move to other games or dropped out of the hobby entirely. You might say "Yeah, but they don't matter" - and they don't matter to GW's bottom line, that's true. But they do strongly influence the community, and that underlying resentment towards GW is the fundamental basis for most of the toxicity in GW-oriented gaming communities.

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I want e-books and a list builder

Now I have to buy books I don't want and pay for the list builder

I don't care what else is offered with the Subscription and how good the value might be, it does not offer what I want and the list builder is more expensive than it was before

For the App itself, I cannot log in within the App

 

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Very happy to have access to warscrolls (up to date ones) for free, that's all I'll use the tool for.

Will always use Warscroll builder to make lists. 

When app moves into warhammer +, will happily pay the  £6 a month for up to date and easy accessible war scrolls. 

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7 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I would very much enjoy reading a reasoned counterpoint to my idea that it's more than a little entitled to complain that we should be getting free stuff ... 'cuz reasons. Got anything along those lines?

Sure, no problem.

I'll start with what I believe to be your premise: GW owns the Warhammer IP, so they get to market it however they want, including at which price they want. That's all there is to it. They just get to decide. And if they decide warscrolls are no longer free, then there is no open question about whether or not warscrolls should be free. GW does not owe anyone free warscrolls, so asking for them is entitlement.

I will not question this idea, but will note that it is possible to disagree with it to the extent that one might think that owning an IP should not give you the absolute right to do whatever you want with it and that companies do owe certain things to their customers beyond their legal obligations. Instead I want to focus on what reducing our interactions with GW to a purely transactional level entails.

If the relationship between GW and their customers is one of GW dictating the terms and customers accepting or rejecting them, the customer has exactly one mode of interaction with GW: Buy their stuff, or don't. The customer makes a determination at some point: Is the product that GW offers worth my money. And then they buy in or not depending on this. It's worth noting that the perceived value for the customer is not based soley on the individual product they buy, like a model kit, a pot of paint or a rule book. It's also based on how these products work together. The value of a model becomes higher if it has good rules in the game, the value of GW paints becomes better if GW has good painting guides that help you paint models you own, the value of a rulebook becomes higher if it's a book for an army you actually collect. All these products have value in isolation. Even if GW rules and paints disappear tomorrow, you still have a cool model. But a customer can rationally value that model less than before.

The customers of GW buy into their whole product range at any given point with respect to the perceived value of not just an individual product, but also the context in which it is purchased. Free warscrolls are part of that context: If a customer buys models and rule books at a time in which warscrolls are free, the fact that free warscrolls are part of the offering adds to perceived their value. Since GW partially markets AoS with free rules as a selling point, that's a kind of implicit promise: You can buy into AoS expecting to play the base game for free.

Now let's say GW decides to make warscrolls no longer free. Maybe that causes my perceived value as a customer to decrease to the point that I don't think the game of AoS is worth it anymore. As noted before, my only mode of interaction would be to stop buying GW stuff. That's the other side of "entitlement" in this context: If my relationship with GW is purely transactional, they are not entitled to customer loyalty from my side if they decide to change the deal.

However, people are not rational action machines without any deeper attachments to worldy things. If you are invested into AoS, then you might not be willing to quit buying GW completely because your perceived value of their offering has decreased slightly. But I also don't want to validate GW's decision to keep decreasing that value until it becomes too much. So the rational course of action is to make things clear to GW: I see you are trying to increase your profits buy monetizing aspects of the game that were previously free. If you keep doing this, eventually I will be forced to stop buying your stuff, because it's not worth it for me any longer. I would like not to have to do this, so please reconsider your business decisions.

 

And all this does not even get into other ways GW can reasonably be criticised in this case. Just briefly: Making core parts of your rules free is not even the exception anymore, it's the standard. Probably at least since DnD 3.5 made their core rules freely available under their open gaming license (which turned out to be a great move for WotC from a business perspective, by the way). Having those rules on a dedicated app instead of an easily accessible wiki is also not the standard anymore. From a different perspective: While GW may have the right to sell their rules however they like, by attempting to monetize the previously free warscrolls, they are sending a certain message: We care more about the potential profit in this case than lowering barrier of entry for players. While that may be their right as the owners of the IP, it's definitely something I as a customer can take into account. I would rather play a game where from a company that is willing to lose out on some profits in order to make a their game more accessible. And, remember, it's not even clear that this move will actually result in higher profits. There are such concepts as loss leaders after all. A more accessible game might easily sell more models and result in higher profit that way.

 

To bring this back on topic to the app:

While the app might be good when viewed in isolation, in so far as it fulfills the function an AoS app ought to fulfill, if that comes at the cost of losing free warscrolls or having to subscribe to a service you would not otherwise want to subscribe to, it's perfectly rational to criticize it. You can hold both of these beliefs at the same time without conflict: The AoS app is a good app, but all things considered it is not worth it for me.

Me personally, I rarely ever used the old app. I mostly just used warscroll builder and the warscroll pdfs from the store. So if using the new app entails losing the warscroll pdfs of warscroll builder, or having to sign up to warhammer+ to gain the same functionality I already had previously, no matter how good the app may be on it's own terms, it's worse value from my perspective. And noting the facts that GW owns AoS and can sell it how they like or that the decision they made might maximize profits really does nothing to change that.

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4 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

As far as I understand as new battletomes are released we won't be able to view them unless we've bought them in a physical copy?

GW is being really non-commital about what will and will not be free or available on the app after the beta period, no doubt intentionally. I would generally expect the worst.

I would hope that we don't end up with the literal worst of all options, where you have to buy a physical battletome to unlock the rules in the app. There will probably at least be an option to unlock the rules in the app for a fee without buying a book. But as far as I am aware (and I may be wrong here), you actually have to buy the physical codex to get access to the rules in the 40k app, so who knows?

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27 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

As far as I understand as new battletomes are released we won't be able to view them unless we've bought them in a physical copy?

I guess it will be just like the Orruk and Stormcast books.

Warscrolls are free, the rest will be unlocked with the code from the physical book.

So the same as in the old app. only now you get the digital rules free with the physical book

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I like the app, seems decent enough and as I'm already on board the W+ train it's a great feature to have access to. I was subbed to the 40k app too when they dropped the price as I felt it was worth the money at the time. There's still Combat Roster on the WarCom site although that builds to power level and not points so I have little doubt that Warscroll Builder will remain on the site too. So, if you like building lists that way, it'll still be an option. 

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Just now, Iksdee said:

Anyone else have problems starting the app? I've had to reinstall the app twice now.

Same. First time I opened, I signed in, and it ran fine. Next time though I tapped, nothing. Tapped again, again, again, oh it stopped working. Uninstalled, reinstalled, opens fine again....only a matter of time...

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