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The End of Free Warscrolls


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6 hours ago, Nos said:

GW *is* elite. It is by far the upper end of the scale for wargaming in pretty much every area. 

If you want to play wargames, there's great models available far cheaper without an expensive rules ecosystem. If you want to paint there are as good hobby resources cheaper, and vastly superior artist products for the same price as GW.

GW is a brand, and you pay a premium for a buy-in to it and its associated perks. 

If you want to play wargames without worrying about player base, product availability, continous product service and developments etc they're unrivalled. 

So GW are already elite. That's not a danger, its already a reality. 

The risks of + and the warscroll stuff is that it becomes impossible to engage with a hobby which requires an already considerable investment on the hobby front without also having to pay for access to the "Universe" of GW.

At the beginning of 2020 it was possible to engage with GW products as a gamer without caring or investing in the lore if you wished. 

I think the aim of + is to make it impossible to be abreast of GW gaming trends and rules without also having to buy in to their wider ecosystem of lore, content, animations etc.

Basically, it's the cost of 2.5 supplement books a year. It's a way of making gamers give them the revenue of supplements, ostensibly in return for content, but a lot of that is content gamers would never otherwise want. And then they'll have to buy the *actual* supplements to play the game.

Basically, not become an "elite" but a superfan, or at least willing to pay as much as a superfan as the cost of entry to the wargaming. 

I wouldn't say "continuous product service" with the amount of warscrolls GW bins per year.

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2 hours ago, EntMan said:

I haven't played it yet but I like the look of onepagerules. Added bonus it looks like their 'medieval fantasy' and 'future fantasy' systems are compatible. I'm old enough to remember my first foray into Rouge Trader and Fantasy Battle where it only took agreement on a few rule tweaks before my space marines, imp guards and squats could battle my friends fantasy army. Fun times.

OPR is truly fantastic and I really hope that it continues to get the traction for it. Obviously won't have the huge marketing department as GW, but I think peoples eyes are being opened to their free systems. AoS should have been closer to it from my opinion. I don't know that I'll be doing much with AoS anymore going forward, as just the general rules bloat and the increase prices has essentially killed my group, especially for book purchases that are outdated fairly often. I'll continue to stand on the hill about having actual gameplay rules being free, but will never happen, while if folks want the extra buy in, just get the battletome as an optional purchase. Just can't justify spending $50 for various books anymore. 

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12 minutes ago, Tervindar said:

OPR is truly fantastic and I really hope that it continues to get the traction for it. Obviously won't have the huge marketing department as GW, but I think peoples eyes are being opened to their free systems. AoS should have been closer to it from my opinion. I don't know that I'll be doing much with AoS anymore going forward, as just the general rules bloat and the increase prices has essentially killed my group, especially for book purchases that are outdated fairly often. I'll continue to stand on the hill about having actual gameplay rules being free, but will never happen, while if folks want the extra buy in, just get the battletome as an optional purchase. Just can't justify spending $50 for various books anymore. 

Another +1 for OPR. I'm just hoping we get just 1 or 2 big cool rules per faction, to help differentiate them a bit more, because the game is so elegant that it could absorb that bit of added complexity very well, and so well-maintained that any kinks that get introduced by adding these times will be quickly ironed out.

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5 minutes ago, acr0ssth3p0nd said:

Another +1 for OPR. I'm just hoping we get just 1 or 2 big cool rules per faction, to help differentiate them a bit more, because the game is so elegant that it could absorb that bit of added complexity very well, and so well-maintained that any kinks that get introduced by adding these times will be quickly ironed out.

Definitely, although hope they don't add too much because then it will turn into some bloat, but everything is concise enough that it shouldn't matter for adding a few rules. 

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At least for 40k OPR already added too much as there are not only all 40k factions but some more from other games as well. Also copying the problems with the 40k factions, if the wrong armies play against each other the game is as one sided as in 40k were using only the armies from other games turns out better

AoS was the better game so less problems with OPR here but gokng for a 1:1 compatibility of every single minor faction out there is not the best idea in the long run.

For me, I am going to use my Stormcast in Kings of War, very different game but I like it more for mass battle

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14 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

I don't think it really matters how people did things "in the old days." Time moves on. We didn't used to have the internet, that doesn't mean that if GW decided to completely ditch digital rules entirely and go back to only pen and paper - no app, no web warscrolls or tools, nothing - that wouldn't be a bad, retrograde decision. The world has changed, and what allegedly did or did not matter to players 20 years ago is not what is important to new players today. We've had a ton of people in this thread provide concrete examples of how freely available warscrolls makes it easier to get new players into the game - it doesn't seem very useful to wave that away that by saying "well, back in my day, we had to order our rules from the mail-order catalog and then trek to the nearest Games Workshop store uphill both ways in the snow!" 

I can only speak for myself, but when I was talking about when I started, I was trying to put a bit of context that things are better than they used to be.  I don't actually think anybody in this thread has said that the removal of downloadable warscrolls is a good move either?

13 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

I can still wholeheartedly recommend the miniature painting part of the hobby...but it's getting harder and harder to describe GW's corporate actions as a positive element in the hobby. It feels like we're going back, not forward, on that front. And it makes me sad as someone who likes the hobby a lot to see that. 

This is where I do become a bit torn.  I do view GW as being part of "the hobby" rather than being the hobby so to speak.  The trouble is that (at least in my eyes) GW produces some of the nicest miniatures on the market.  Whenever I've touched other companies, I've always come away feeling a bit disappointed from the experience.  The miniatures aren't quite as crisp, or are horribly fiddly or the game isn't popular or so complicated you need to have a doctorate to understand it.  It's resulted in me pretty much sticking to GW for most of the miniatures I purchase because although I may pay a high premium, I know that I'm less likely to be disappointed.  Trouble is that with GW the size it is, it's going to take something remarkable to throw in some legitimate competition, so GW can largely get away with things that others couldn't.  The exception to this though is hobby "materials" - so paints, tools, etc, my collection is filled with non-GW products that I've picked up over the years, many of which are simply better than what GW offered (if at all).  Where GW benefits is by having a rock solid distribution network - I know I can pick up a can of black spray in my local toyshop on my way home.

I will also throw in that I'm aware I'm in a bit of a minority in that I'm a "miniature" first person rather than "game" first 😉

8 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I wouldn't say "continuous product service" with the amount of warscrolls GW bins per year.

Not sure they've binned many from the last 5 or so years?  My only gripe along this line is the few they've got rid of for their limited ed models that got removed within a year (am looking at you Guardian of Souls!)

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Just to add that because GW are popular, it’s easier to get games in around the UK. I know if I was to move anywhere in the UK, I’m more likely to be able to get games in using GW games over any other system. Plus they are fairly easy to pick up and play so I don’t have to worry too much about remembering rules. It’s also why I like games like Kings of War as that’s fairly straight forwards to play

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1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

I can only speak for myself, but when I was talking about when I started, I was trying to put a bit of context that things are better than they used to be.  I don't actually think anybody in this thread has said that the removal of downloadable warscrolls is a good move either?

I don't think either this is a good move, but I also believe that this will impact the most "hobby knowledgeable" people (that already play AoS or that come from another game). 

without numbers we can just guess from our biased point of view and its kind of hard to make some kind of prediction on how this is going to impact the arrival of new players.

From my experience, GW stores have a very well planned funnel to get into the hobby new players. Running path to glory campaigns, painting challenges, etc..

Independent stores have been kind of hit or miss. Some are really nice and others look that they're run by a group of friends and if you're new, probably won't get much attention.

The same goes for getting random games. GW stores tend to have a more chill, noob friendly environment, and in independent stores you can find anything, but probably the more crunchy players are going to be there.

As said before... I think this is going to affect people in the hobby that wants to try AoS more than totally new people, but I can just guess -_-

 

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34 minutes ago, Gotz said:

From my experience, GW stores have a very well planned funnel to get into the hobby new players. Running path to glory campaigns, painting challenges, etc..

For sure GW stores are still a major entry point into the hobby, but I wonder if they are still the main entry point for new players. Especially with the popularity of video games like Total War, I don't know if going to a GW or independent store is the first point of contact with warhammer for a lot of people.

Maybe my perspective is skewed here, because I very rarely visit GW stores. I know that even 10 years ago, I looked at a bunch of info on the internet to decide if I should actually be making a trip to the closest large city that actually had a GW store to buy models. And I would guess that since then, the number of people who come to the hobby through online ressources first or even mostly interact with it online has only grown.

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5 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

For sure GW are still a major entry point into the hobby, but I wonder if they are still the main entry point for new players. Especially with the popularity of video games like Total War, I don't know if going to a GW or independent store is the first point of contact with warhammer for a lot of people.

Maybe my perspective is skewed here, because I very rarely visit GW stores. I know that even 10 years ago, I looked at a bunch of info on the internet to decide if I should actually be making a trip to the closest large city that actually had a GW store to buy models. And I would guess that since then, the number of people who come to the hobby through online ressources first or even mostly interact with it online has only grown.

yeah! our point of view here depends totally on our own situation. 

I'm sure videogames are being now one of the main things that attract people to warhammer. Not sure if kiosk collectables are working well on that regard or are just buying them people who want to get minis on a discount.

I live in quite a big city with 3 GW stores and a lot more independant ones, so my experience is going to be super different.

I used to live for a while in a small city and I got warhammer stuff on a general hobby store.

And from what I experienced, in small cities they need to be extra nice with customers as there are not that many (as always this is what I experienced and I'm sure it's going to be different in other places)

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12 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I wouldn't say "continuous product service" with the amount of warscrolls GW bins per year.

I meant as in as close to as possible there's a guarantee that your game will be widely available and supported with new rules, models etc on a consistent basis. Not something that most wargames systems can confidently assert.

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2 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I will also throw in that I'm aware I'm in a bit of a minority in that I'm a "miniature" first person rather than "game" first 

Not sure they've binned many from the last 5 or so years?  My only gripe along this line is the few they've got rid of for their limited ed models that got removed within a year (am looking at you Guardian of Souls!)

Very little of Isle of Blood remains, and it was sold AoS branded. Much of Silver Tower is gone or partitioned so it only works in Grand Alliance.

The factions that now form Cities have lost 29 warscrolls.

Chaos dwarves and almost everything else from Forge world are gone.

Then we have about 20 or so warscrolls between chaos, destruction and death that have been removed bit by bit.

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51 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Very little of Isle of Blood remains, and it was sold AoS branded. Much of Silver Tower is gone or partitioned so it only works in Grand Alliance.

The factions that now form Cities have lost 29 warscrolls.

Chaos dwarves and almost everything else from Forge world are gone.

Then we have about 20 or so warscrolls between chaos, destruction and death that have been removed bit by bit.

Let's not forget the original Grots and the classic Greenskins Orruks that had an AoS start collecting box for years and were suddenly gone without warning. Got a full Greenskin army as a christmas present for my brother and GW killed them off the following year. 😤

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First time going to the web store to look get Warscrolls to print for a demo game for a potential new player only to find they are all gone. Didn’t appreciate enough of what a fantastic free service this was until it was gone. Yes, the app is nice but it is not the same.🙁

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I really do think it's probably bad for GW's bottom line, too. When you can see the scroll right there on the store page, that's a lot more convenient than having to open up your phone and page through 10 levels of menus and scroll down through several dozen warscrolls and/or type in some Copyrightable Doublename to find the one you're looking for. How many people are going to just lose interest in that time, not bother to look at the scroll, and then not buy the product? Is it really going to be outweighed by people who are grudgingly nudged into subscribing to the app? I kind-of doubt it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Greyshadow said:

First time going to the web store to look get Warscrolls to print for a demo game for a potential new player only to find they are all gone. Didn’t appreciate enough of what a fantastic free service this was until it was gone. Yes, the app is nice but it is not the same.🙁

App is only free in beta.

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13 hours ago, Digdeeper said:

Quick heads up for everyone here, the older warscrolls are still up a the games workshop webstore, only the links have been removed. I'll let you guys figure those out for yourselves though..... 

Shhh 😉(I've been working through downloading living cities' and tzeenrch's allies before GW finish the purge!

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In light of recent events on GW's part, primarily warscroll removal, the NDA fiasco, the rising prices on both books and models, the locking of features in the app, the necessity of needing a constant internet connection to use the app, and the delayed items that were stealth edited in old war-com articles, I have seen in a few places here folks talking about onepagerules as a source for a ruleset and miniatures that can both utilize the GW sculpts we love, and provide alternate models (as long as they aren't used in a GW tournament ofc). I'm pleased to say I just picked up a 3D printer and some amazing custom sculpts for the exact same price I had budgeted to purchase a new seraphon army, and have started my hobby journey down that path until the GW ship is righted so to speak. 

I imagine the only way to really make the change in the hobby we wish to see is to dedicate our hobby dollars differently until the drop in revenue (coupled with feedback as to why we are doing so) makes our concerns pertinent to address. 

I'd like to invite anyone who is in the same circumstance, primarily playing at home or at an independent venue (I live in a town with no GW, and play mostly with my wife and friends) to consider doing the same, and to compose feedback to GW explaining all of the reasons you have diverted your hobby money, and specifically which products you did not purchase and found an alternative to. Hopefully these sorts of messages add up and convince the policy makers to reconsider their consumer unfriendly strategies.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/13/2021 at 8:33 AM, Gaz Taylor said:

+++ Mod Hat On +++
As already mentioned by Runebrush, we don’t want people saying it’s okay to Pirate stuff because GW have changed how they do things. Just plain up no. Not going to discuss copyrights in different countries as I would like to think you would agree that pirating things is wrong. 

 

Any further talk in this topic l, along the lines of “I’ve not got free warscrolls, so you have to pirate/steal it” will result in moderator actions.

I would suggest you follow Runebrush’s example and email aosfaq@gwplc.com. Remember to keep your comments polite and constructive. 

 

Piracy is and always will be largely an access issue. The people who will always pirate are a small percentage of pirates if you make purchasing your product a giant hassle (and, like, are unreachable anyways. Even if piracy is entirely impossible, they simply won't partake).

 

GW making the product harder to purchase WILL promote piracy.

 

 

Also illegal is not immoral, and it is actually quite disturbing conflating legal with moral considering what has been and often still is legal. 

 

So pirating is not wrong, nor is it right intrinsically. Unless you are basing our ethical system on kantian ethics. Which I hope you wouldn't because kantian ethics is terrible. Under a better ethical system (like, say, variations of utilitarian ehtics) the morality of any action, including piracy, is what kind of suffering or pleasure it creates. And that often only has passing relation with what is and is not legal.

 

Not allowing advocating for piracy is a good policy to have on a forum to protect it from legal action and preserve official relationships. Decrying piracy as always wrong is a moral stance that is... misguided. As in all things, context matters

 

On 9/13/2021 at 11:46 AM, yukishiro1 said:

GW doesn't need to make any of its profits via rules. It could easily afford to make all its rules entirely free, and it would still have world-beating profit margins - in fact, its margins might actually go up, since its margin on plastic is much higher than its margin on paper, so if people shifted money they currently spend on rules to miniatures, it might even work in GW's favor. GW certainly doesn't need to take away free warscrolls to try to drive its profit margin from 43% to 44%. There is making a healthy profit and then there is short-sighted greed that cannibalizes your long-term profits in favor of short-term ones, and this is tipping into the latter. It is so depressing to see GW going in precisely the opposite direction of where they should be re: accessible digital rules. 

 

I mean they gone even crazier and done away with accessing digital rules entirely without a physical purchase. This is legitimately insane to me. You have to buy both the hard copy AND the app to access your rules digitally, in a format that strips out half the neat things I want the book for.

 

I can't tell you the last time I bought a physical book (well I bought House of Shadows physical copy cause I am a necromunda fanatic, so I can actually tell you, but I am gonna be using a digital copy for 90 percent of any games I play with Delaque), and I purchase virtually all my books, from fiction to rules, to scholarly works online (usually through the monster that is amazon, to my slight shame). And this is quite common. It is a mind boggling move of GW's to force you to buy a hard copy and then pay a monthly fee for their app to access their rules online. And then they don't even have the decency of making a quality online product to force you to work through. If I pay 60 dollars for a book, give me the PDF please.

 

Like I can't see this as anything but shrinking their sales. I know it has shrunk my purchases. I don't know what i'm going to do when GW finally gets around to updating the armies i actually play, for both 40k and AoS (they still offer digital copies of necromunda and SBG products funnily enough). The answer might be to simply stop playing. Or... continue not playing at this point, thank you delta variant and antivaxxers.

 

On 9/13/2021 at 1:45 PM, The Red King said:

I just wanted to say that I wasn't being snarky. I literally was not advocating for piracy but expressing concern that these actions will lead to more piracy.

 

Despite how critical I seem at times of GW I don't want them to fail.

luckily no amount of piracy can cause GW to fail. They're not a book retailer (and to be clear, piracy has done a number on many publishing industries). They're a miniature retailer, they make their bucks on models and a little on paints, and very very little on rules sales.

 

On 9/13/2021 at 2:18 PM, yukishiro1 said:

Saying people will get their rules elsewhere doesn't necessarily imply piracy, which to be clear I'm not advocating either. As someone else noted, there is no copyright protection in the rules themselves, just in the expression of them. It doesn't violate any IP rules to create, post, or download detailed summaries of rules, as long as you don't just copy the exact wording and formatting; as such, there is no piracy involved in such an approach to getting the rules for free, as long as whoever originally did the compiling had a legal copy they were working from. Although GW claims you're not allowed to post stats for its games on its IP guidelines page, this simply isn't true as a matter of law in any country I'm aware of - certainly not the EU, the UK, or the US - which GW knows perfectly well itself. 

I have to wonder, legally, what is getting a copy of the rules from a friend? That legal or not? How about borrowing their rulebook? I've seen big brained thinkers (on dakkadakka) saying borrowing a rulebook is tantamount to piracy.

On 9/13/2021 at 2:26 PM, Sarouan said:

Rules are available on reviewers's videos, anyway. Just have to hit "pause" a lot.

Yeah, warscrolls on GW website are very convenient - though I largely used them for anything but using them in an actual game (have the battletome already for that, after all). More like analysis / check up before buying.

Though it's weird the old warscrolls are still online for the "old units". Anyone sent a mail to customer service and had an answer so far ?

 

Is it piracy to transcribe paused minutes into image files? How about to take the information and transcribe it in plain text? People on this very forum do that all the time

There's a lot of murky areas about IP laws that no lay person is going to know.

On 9/14/2021 at 3:12 AM, RuneBrush said:

This depends entirely upon by what you mean by "rules".  If you mean warscrolls and the core rules - absolutely.  If you mean battletomes then I'd disagree because GW employs staff specifically to create very high production quality books.  If GW did decide to make battletomes/army rules free then I'd expect to see a drop in quality and less financial investment in them - very few companies can justify an entire team of staff to produce free content.

In short - no, we don't know 100% for sure this is going to happen - it's largely been a calculated assumption that's been fuelled by lack of comment from GW.

 

This is... weirdly naïve. Plenty of actual existing companies in the same market as GW DO in fact produce rules for free. And aren't all going out of business because of it. Or, uh, writing rules that are worse than GW's to put it lightly.

And, like, as we've established, they pay their writing staff peanuts anyways. Can't hardly pay them less. They'd all starve

On 9/20/2021 at 3:42 PM, nuttyknatty said:

Apologies to all, but I just can’t understand how something like this gets people so heated.

I can understand why it’s disappointing but really, the level of hyperbole is eyebrow raising.  I think the word here is perspective. 
We have to spend some money to access some work that someone has produced. The fact that for the last six years we’ve not had to pay for it shouldn’t be a source of negativity. On the contrary, we should be appreciative that we had it for free for so long.

Fair enough if you’ve got a political argument against capitalism, but I’d wager that the majority of GW’s customers aren’t either communists or anarchists, so trying to argue that stuff should be free glaringly looks like entitlement.

But I may well be wrong.🤷🏼‍♂️

I think governments really REALLY need to step in to restrain the modern excesses of capitalism so we can enjoy the benefits of it without the horrible drawbacks, but that modern capitalism also makes it nearly impossible for governments to restrain via coopting the state bodies supposed to restrain and regulate it. And that this will continue to build societal tension until things snap (especially with how climate change is shaping up) and everything is then up in the air and could come down in some very dark ways.

GW is just another company that should have its, admittedly far less serious than many companies, excesses reined in.

On 9/22/2021 at 11:06 AM, Nos said:

GW *is* elite. It is by far the upper end of the scale for wargaming in pretty much every area. 

If you want to play wargames, there's great models available far cheaper without an expensive rules ecosystem. If you want to paint there are as good hobby resources cheaper, and vastly superior artist products for the same price as GW.

GW is a brand, and you pay a premium for a buy-in to it and its associated perks. 

If you want to play wargames without worrying about player base, product availability, continous product service and developments etc they're unrivalled. 

So GW are already elite. That's not a danger, its already a reality. 

The risks of + and the warscroll stuff is that it becomes impossible to engage with a hobby which requires an already considerable investment on the hobby front without also having to pay for access to the "Universe" of GW.

At the beginning of 2020 it was possible to engage with GW products as a gamer without caring or investing in the lore if you wished. 

I think the aim of + is to make it impossible to be abreast of GW gaming trends and rules without also having to buy in to their wider ecosystem of lore, content, animations etc.

Basically, it's the cost of 2.5 supplement books a year. It's a way of making gamers give them the revenue of supplements, ostensibly in return for content, but a lot of that is content gamers would never otherwise want. And then they'll have to buy the *actual* supplements to play the game.

Basically, not become an "elite" but a superfan, or at least willing to pay as much as a superfan as the cost of entry to the wargaming. 

Here's an alternative to saying elite.

 

Old white men. 

 

I desperately don't want a hobby that caters to middle aged and older white dudes over everyone else. I'd rather they cater to excitable 12 year olds. Seriously the demographics of warhammer get real distressing if you price or otherwise block out anyone but the upper middle class and above. And the politics of a plurality of these dudes makes a community ultra toxic (this is certainly true in my local community) to people like me (you know, lgbt people. But also minorities and cis women, which is why its old white dudes and no old white ladies.) So even those non old white men who COULD participate leave because enough of the old white men are just too hateful to be around.

On 9/22/2021 at 12:37 PM, Pyrescribe said:

Am I the only one who isn't irked by perceived anti-consumer behavior during a global pandemic when the company in question produces boutique luxury goods? Like, hiking the price of baby formula is one thing. Making warbarbies harder to access is another. Like, if you're weighing the purchase of a limited edition Boxed Game or a designer handbag versus making rent or medical bill payments....I don't know what to say to that.

 

The less accessible a game, the smaller and worse the community gets. It benefits most of us to have a broader more inclusive community, and only a scant handful to gate out everyone who is different.

 

 

 

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You can borrow a book from a friend; their purchase license includes the right to lend it, just like it includes the right to sell it. That's because there's no reproduction involved, though - obviously the situation is different if you make a copy and give that to your friend instead. 

Edited by yukishiro1
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I am curious if Warhammer+ fails, if we will see a return of free warscrolls ? I feel so conflicted with the company as the rules, lore and models have really appealed to my sensibilities lately... but every corporate choice has been so negative and resulted in such a massive backlash. I think if they are going to hide warscrolls behind paywalls give us cheaper options for the battletomes.  

Also, I thought this Forum was pro pirates?
image.png.fc7b44b9ea03feacc99baa9c65a32810.png

Edited by Neverchosen
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