The End of Free Warscrolls

[Gaz Taylor]

4 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

If I'm honest, I think the hobby has always been expensive*.

Well my son loves Hand dryers and he’s decided he wants a collection of them, so I think he’s going to beat Wargaming! 😭

5 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Coming full circle, I do think it's important that we're all aware of accessibility to the hobby for new (and old) hobbyists.  GW will always produce curve balls like removing downloadable warscrolls, but on the other hand we as the "old hands" need to make sure the advice we're giving out doesn't switch new hobbyists off.  Let's make sure we continue to give out good advice and focus on the positive parts of the hobby.

I 100% agree and looking at how we hobbyists use the Internet, social media and forums like this one, it’s to stay in contact with each other, discuss stuff and learn new things. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

57 minutes ago, Gotz said:

I don't think most beginners (old or young) are going to check all the rules before deciding the army. They are going to go to a gw or a local store and ask for advice, on lore, looks, playstyle... 

A friend I played a small 1000 points game with texted me later and told me unprompted how convenient it was that he could look up rules of models he thought were cool on the web store. I guarantee you he would not have gone to a GW to browse random warscrolls (or even downloaded an app). I does not always have to be a case of checking out all rules for all factions. It can just be about looking up the rules for a few units you are interested in. This hobby is expensive, and there is no worse feeling than buying a model because it looks cool and finding out later that you can't justify putting it on the table. My friend played one game with me, got the core rules down and was able to start making informed decisions about what armies looked fun to play for him right away, in his own time, without having to leave his house. We can't pretend that kind of thing is not a huge upside.

 

42 minutes ago, Gotz said:

yeah, but you always have needed to have the army book to play warhammer since 4th edition. As has previously said in the thread, free warscrolls lets you have a peek to get an idea of how an army works or play some casual games with the random minis you own (since the core rules are still free)

 but you always needed the army books with full rules to play competively or as intended. 

I think this is a much harder sell in an age where for a lot of games you can just go online and look up how everything works on a wiki. Especially for people coming from video games, where it is definitely the standard. Sure, when I was a getting into warhammer as a little baby back in the 90s I chose High Elves basically just because they looked the coolest. But there is really no reason that new players today should not be able to get a good idea how an army works before starting the game.

 

28 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

My only concern about the removal of the free warscrolls is it makes the journey for new players different. But having thought about this for a week now, the barebones how to play will be with the models and you will most likely get the books as well. 

The least amount of stuff you need to play the game is probably a box of battleline and a hero. That should set you back ~60€ or so if you include the glue needed to put everything together. A battletome is ~30€. It significantly raises the barrier of entry to a hobby that is already hard to get into due to the painting/buidling component that people are often afraid of at first. It puts the cost close to that of two new video games, which are much less daunting to start. Or you could buy, like, three Magic: The Gathering Commander decks.

I really think that reducing the up front cost of getting into this hobby is something GW should be taking into account way more than they are. I seriously believe making rules more accessible would be a big help. Otherwise, it just always kind of feels like someone is trying to upsell you: "Oh, sure, you have the models and the paints, but if you really want to play the full game at it's best you need to also buy the core book, GHB and battletome." If even RPG game companies like Wizards and Paizo can give away most of their rules when books are their main product, it just kinda feels like surely GW would be able to make their rules free or more accessible if they wanted. They are mainly selling models, not books after all.

[sandlemad]

1 hour ago, Gotz said:

but the main discussion here on hobby accessibility is missing the free warscrolls. And by reading this thread, the main concern is from people who like playing to a certain competitive degree and want to check the rules before deciding wich army to start or check rivals rules so they can tweak/grow their army.

That's the main discussion because TGA is a forum which is overwhelmingly focused on competitive/tournament play over background/hobby/narrative stuff.

I think some of the folks who really lose out with the scrapping of new free warscrolls and the deletion of all older ones are the casual newbies. People who aren't even at the stage of asking what army they should play (and being told buy 5 boxes of X and Y and nothing else, make sure you use only this competitive loadout) but who have bought or been gifted e.g. a random box of dudes and want to throw some dice around. Most other companies facilitate this better than GW.

Maybe they move on to battletome and dropping £400 on an army but at that stage they're cut out almost entirely by this decision and I suspect they make up a larger customer base overall than hardcore competitive players, if in a sense a more ephemeral one. That's where accessibility comes in. Diversity too, in terms of who is being catered for.

Edited September 22, 2021 by sandlemad

[Marcvs]

39 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Just to throw this out there but when you first started, did you? I’ve been playing GW games since second edition 40K and it never bothered me. You get a book explaining how the army works on the table, lots of cool pictures and all the background about it. I think as players get older and have seen a few editions, they look at the background differently because they know it and it doesn’t change much.

My only concern about the removal of the free warscrolls is it makes the journey for new players different. But having thought about this for a week now, the barebones how to play will be with the models and you will most likely get the books as well. 

I have "started" with WFB 6th edition, buying and playing random models with my friends with one battletome which I got at a second hand shop (I still suspect it was for the wrong edition). Then I stopped and started again two years ago when moving to a city with a nice club (+ having hobby money for the first time in my life).

So, although I do have lived through some "older" days, my actual experience with the real game is all very recent. Battletomes are nice, but they look very expensive to a new player, and now other systems do exist and, in the case of my club, co-exist in the same space, making the situation worse by comparison.

1 hour ago, Gotz said:

yeah, but you always have needed to have the army book to play warhammer since 4th edition. As has previously said in the thread, free warscrolls lets you have a peek to get an idea of how an army works or play some casual games with the random minis you own (since the core rules are still free)

 but you always needed the army books with full rules to play competively or as intended. 

we can discuss if rules (core and army/unit) should be free as a hook for getting newer players. But I think it doesn't make much difference using the random minis you own without the book but with full warscrolls thant without the book and the capped warscrolls that are currently in the mini boxes.

free warscrolls are not just a peek, in my experience (again anecdotal, so ymmv) they provide sufficient depth to keep you entertained for quite some games, combined with the different lists and battleplans that I, as a more "experienced" player can provide. Statlines (the new "capped" warscrolls) are honestly the most boring way to greet new players.

[Nos]

1 hour ago, Public Universal Duardin said:

Sure! Although I have to immediately say that painting guides and lore videos by GW have moved behind WH+ - which isn't an issue...as long as there's alternatives by third parties. Again not an issue to /us/, the "hardcore hobbyist" but as per my original post I'm trying to look from the perspective of someone who's just starting the hobby - maybe they saw a GW store, liked a Warhammer videogame or a friend tries to get them in the hobby...you know, someone we all were at one time. Is your first stop going to be Duncan Rhodes and Wahapedia or Games Workshop itself?

And that leads to my point: Games Workshop isn't making this hobby accessible. Yes, /you/ might not need new miniatures. /I/ might not need new miniatures. /We/ might afford new miniatures we wanted to buy, and if we don't it, won't matter as we got enough greys to last a long, long time. I know it's heresy to question GW as this forum has close ties with our corporate overlord, but if I who start pushing 30 (oof owie) feel things are being too steep, how is little Billy going to afford this? I'm sure I'll be in this hobby in 10 years, even in 20 years - I've already been close to 20! And I know young!P.U.D would not have been able to afford this hobby as it is today.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm worried this all leads - as I mentioned earlier - to this hobby become "elite". Where only in time, the community is aging and distinctly from a particular age group and economic background (which increases the risk of the hobbyists being less diverse in general - but that's a bit too "political" take to say here).

 

GW *is* elite. It is by far the upper end of the scale for wargaming in pretty much every area. 

If you want to play wargames, there's great models available far cheaper without an expensive rules ecosystem. If you want to paint there are as good hobby resources cheaper, and vastly superior artist products for the same price as GW.

GW is a brand, and you pay a premium for a buy-in to it and its associated perks. 

If you want to play wargames without worrying about player base, product availability, continous product service and developments etc they're unrivalled. 

So GW are already elite. That's not a danger, its already a reality. 

The risks of + and the warscroll stuff is that it becomes impossible to engage with a hobby which requires an already considerable investment on the hobby front without also having to pay for access to the "Universe" of GW.

At the beginning of 2020 it was possible to engage with GW products as a gamer without caring or investing in the lore if you wished. 

I think the aim of + is to make it impossible to be abreast of GW gaming trends and rules without also having to buy in to their wider ecosystem of lore, content, animations etc.

Basically, it's the cost of 2.5 supplement books a year. It's a way of making gamers give them the revenue of supplements, ostensibly in return for content, but a lot of that is content gamers would never otherwise want. And then they'll have to buy the *actual* supplements to play the game.

Basically, not become an "elite" but a superfan, or at least willing to pay as much as a superfan as the cost of entry to the wargaming. 

[Garxia]

An update for the old WH: AoS app has just popped on my phone... 

It says "bug fixes" but I'm scared of updating it and losing all the warscrolls.

Have some brave soul updated it? 😆

[EntMan]

1 hour ago, Garxia said:

An update for the old WH: AoS app has just popped on my phone... 

It says "bug fixes" but I'm scared of updating it and losing all the warscrolls.

Have some brave soul updated it? 😆

I've always been "bugged" by all those pesky free warscrolls!

A while ago, around the time W£+ was launched and before the new AoS app arrived there was a pop up when I opened (now old) app to say it would no longer be supported or updated. So I would share your caution. 

It looks like the old app might still be on the play store so you could try installing it on a different device (friend/spouse/child/parent's phone) and see whats different or potentially removed in the "updated" version.

Edited September 22, 2021 by EntMan

[yukishiro1]

I don't think it really matters how people did things "in the old days." Time moves on. We didn't used to have the internet, that doesn't mean that if GW decided to completely ditch digital rules entirely and go back to only pen and paper - no app, no web warscrolls or tools, nothing - that wouldn't be a bad, retrograde decision. The world has changed, and what allegedly did or did not matter to players 20 years ago is not what is important to new players today. We've had a ton of people in this thread provide concrete examples of how freely available warscrolls makes it easier to get new players into the game - it doesn't seem very useful to wave that away that by saying "well, back in my day, we had to order our rules from the mail-order catalog and then trek to the nearest Games Workshop store uphill both ways in the snow!" 

But I think that backward-looking to "how it was in my day" is instructive because it feels like GW operates in a similar way itself a lot of the time. There are many things about the way this game is run that feel like fossilized assumptions that nobody is willing to challenge, rather than things that actually make much sense. And none greater than the stubborn insistence on charging big money for rules, something most of the rest of the industry has moved on from. AOS having free warscrolls felt like a small case of GW actually learning something - to see them going back in the opposite direction, just like they've gone back in the opposite direction on digital rules generally by discontinuing e-pubs and forcing you to buy a physical book to unlock rules in the app - is quite disappointing. 

[Pyrescribe]

Am I the only one who isn't irked by perceived anti-consumer behavior during a global pandemic when the company in question produces boutique luxury goods? Like, hiking the price of baby formula is one thing. Making warbarbies harder to access is another. Like, if you're weighing the purchase of a limited edition Boxed Game or a designer handbag versus making rent or medical bill payments....I don't know what to say to that.

[Kodos der Henker]

4 hours ago, Iksdee said:

I agree with this. Since i started with WHFB things have become way more beginner friendly. We need less models to get an army together. We have better and more diverse paints. We have smaller systems like warcry and underworlds. Youtube/this forum are still teaching me new stuff about painting and motivates me to try new things. Imo now is a great time to get into this hobby. And to be honest many hobbies are expensive if u want to do it properly or compete in some form. Still having no free warscolls sucks .

Edit: Oh and every army getting released looks better than the one before it. Would be a nightmare to pick one to start with haha.

so basically AoS 2nd was what once Warhammer 6th was, except instead of Youtube we had the Black Gobbo, and Mortheim instead of Warcry (and HeroQuest instead of Underworlds)

Free stuff/rules from GW, lots of hobby articles/conversions, army started smaller and the overall entry level was lower
Good small skirmish games etc.

Everything was there, and than GW changed it to rise the amount of models needed, and replaced all the free stuff with payed content while also reducing support (and they also removed their Inks from the paint line which was a big step back)

[yukishiro1]

Pointing to something worse isn't a very convincing way to argue that something isn't bad. I don't think anyone is saying that discontinuing free warscrolls is as bad as the Taliban kicking girls out of school in Afghanistan, but I also don't think citing the latter is a great argument for why we shouldn't care about the former. Everything about this hobby is fundamentally trivial on a cosmic level, but if we actually thought nothing about what happened to the hobby mattered, we wouldn't be hobbyists in the first place. We're all invested, and it's possible to have opinions about the direction of the hobby while also recognizing that there are more important things out there. 

 

[yukishiro1]

1 minute ago, Kodos der Henker said:

so basically AoS 2nd was what once Warhammer 6th was, except instead of Youtube we had the Black Gobbo, and Mortheim instead of Warcry (and HeroQuest instead of Underworlds)

Free stuff/rules from GW, lots of hobby articles/conversions, army started smaller and the overall entry level was lower
Good small skirmish games etc.

Everything was there, and than GW changed it to rise the amount of models needed, and replaced all the free stuff with payed content while also reducing support (and they also removed their Inks from the paint line which was a big step back)

Yeah, this is what concerns a lot of us, I think. I personally got back into the hobby with 8th edition of 40k, and a large part of the reason for that was people telling me that GW had changed from the bad old days of the 00s and early 10s, that the game was going in a friendlier direction. I got into AOS because the free warscrolls made it feel like AOS was a game designed with a more customer-friendly orientation than past GW products (especially WHFB). 

I totally agree with focusing on the positive elements of the hobby, but I guess the issue is that for many of us, it feels like we're entering another period where those elements are diminishing and the negative elements are growing. At this point I would feel remiss in not telling a new player contemplating the game that it feels like GW is going back on a lot of the things it did in the mid to late 10s to make the hobby friendlier and more accessible. I can still wholeheartedly recommend the miniature painting part of the hobby...but it's getting harder and harder to describe GW's corporate actions as a positive element in the hobby. It feels like we're going back, not forward, on that front. And it makes me sad as someone who likes the hobby a lot to see that. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

32 minutes ago, Pyrescribe said:

Am I the only one who isn't irked by perceived anti-consumer behavior during a global pandemic when the company in question produces boutique luxury goods? Like, hiking the price of baby formula is one thing. Making warbarbies harder to access is another. Like, if you're weighing the purchase of a limited edition Boxed Game or a designer handbag versus making rent or medical bill payments....I don't know what to say to that.

The duality of the tabletop hobby:

You should care enough to pay highly elevated prices and spend hours lovingly painting and customizing your army, but not enough to be upset at bad balance or business practices because "it's just a game, bro".

[micahaphone]

I will say as a new AoS player (did 40k as a child so I'm familiar with warhammer/GW usual business though) that the base rules being split between the Core Rulebook and the General's Handbook is wild. The free core rules don't contain all the battle styles, and the core rules don't contain the battleplans. So if you want to see the full rules for play thats $60 + $40 before you even buy a battletome. 

It's ridiculous that in 40k you need to buy a codex and then a sub codex for most of the factions (lol space marines, perpetual spotlight hogs) but I don't think "buy 3 different rulebooks to learn the game" is a good idea.

Then again, I guess it's working for DnD. 

[Public Universal Duardin]

3 minutes ago, micahaphone said:

Then again, I guess it's working for DnD. 

To be fair, the books are the main part of the hobby and revenue stream, whereas in Warhammer the miniatures are - and yet, with new battletomes going at my FLGS for 37.50€, buying a DnD book would in some cases be cheaper...not to mention that with a 20€ Starter Set including dice, quick start rulebook and adventures up to lv. 10, it is far cheaper to actually get into 😛

[Clan's Cynic]

People will say gatekeeping is bad, but then turn around and go "it's a luxury hobby bro."

[Pyrescribe]

I'm not Stanning for GW, but I don't think the fact that there's a global pandemic should reasonably factor into consumer reactions to anti-consumerist behavior when it comes to luxury goods. Assault and battery is bad. Is assault and battery during a pandemic somehow worse? Should it be prosecuted differently? If GW wants to shoot themselves in the foot in the long run by raising barriers to entry, that's on them. Gatekeeping by the player community is bad, if the desire is to grow and sustain a healthy community. Gatekeeping by a company is amoral, and its efficacy can only be evaluated by performance.

[PJetski]

10 minutes ago, Pyrescribe said:

I'm not Stanning for GW, but I don't think the fact that there's a global pandemic should reasonably factor into consumer reactions to anti-consumerist behavior when it comes to luxury goods. Assault and battery is bad. Is assault and battery during a pandemic somehow worse? Should it be prosecuted differently? If GW wants to shoot themselves in the foot in the long run by raising barriers to entry, that's on them. Gatekeeping by the player community is bad, if the desire is to grow and sustain a healthy community. Gatekeeping by a company is amoral, and its efficacy can only be evaluated by performance.

Hmm yes you're right complaining about a company's bait & switch anti-consumer business strategies on a forum dedicated to discussing the company and it's products is definitely the same thing as being beaten in the streets during a pandemic - great analogy, truly a 10/10 post

[The Red King]

4 hours ago, Gotz said:

yeah, but you always have needed to have the army book to play warhammer since 4th edition. As has previously said in the thread, free warscrolls lets you have a peek to get an idea of how an army works or play some casual games with the random minis you own (since the core rules are still free)

 but you always needed the army books with full rules to play competively or as intended. 

we can discuss if rules (core and army/unit) should be free as a hook for getting newer players. But I think it doesn't make much difference using the random minis you own without the book but with full warscrolls thant without the book and the capped warscrolls that are currently in the mini boxes.

  

And now I need theee different 50 dollar battletomes to play a living cities army. 150 dollars in paper alone just to bring 2 coalition units that are baked right into my armies rules. Playing Blades of Khorne with S2D and BoC unts puts me in the exact same boat.

 

Will I do that? No, I'll use warhapedia or some other third party site to get the single warscroll I need, but if I were a brand new player (I mean I've been in for years now and somehow just discovered warhapedia myself) and you told me that if I want to play those cool humans with the guns and steam tanks I'll need to shell out 150 dollars on rules alone (or gimp myself in army selection) I wouldnt play that army and I probably wouldnt play that game.

 

The question then becomes why? Who is benefiting from this decision (shareholders) and is their gain worth the communities loss?

Edited September 22, 2021 by The Red King

[Noserenda]

Yes i think people miss the culture shift, if a brand new game wanted me to spend out £30 per army on rules id laugh in their faces. if a brand new game wanted me to spend £5 a month for a mediocre app id laugh in their faces. 

Gw is doing it because they think they can, but ultimately i think its going to repel new or returning customers. 

I mean, i chiefly credit the big delay thinning my keen out but i was super invested in a revamped Stormcast army after i got Dominion but right now with that additional up front cost im not going to bother.

[Skreech Verminking]

32 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Yes i think people miss the culture shift, if a brand new game wanted me to spend out £30 per army on rules id laugh in their faces. if a brand new game wanted me to spend £5 a month for a mediocre app id laugh in their faces. 

Gw is doing it because they think they can, but ultimately i think its going to repel new or returning customers. 

I mean, i chiefly credit the big delay thinning my keen out but i was super invested in a revamped Stormcast army after i got Dominion but right now with that additional up front cost im not going to bother.

Same thought.

I have currently nothing to gain by throwing my money at gws face.

Now this could of course change, but it really would need a skaven heavy revamp to do so

[MarkK]

For me personally, the price of books is far too high; €37.50 for one Battletome/codex is nuts.

I was looking forward to the new Kill Team, but baulked at shelling out €75 on rules (not including the new measuring pieces). I instead bought Stargrave and Frostgrave rulebooks; including 20 plastic soldiers and 7 metal characters for less than just the Kill Team rules.

I'd rather they went back to paperback for rules if it meant the battletomes were cheaper. Or at least allow people to purchase a digital only Battletome for less than hardback.

 When I got back into the hobby a couple of years ago after leaving it in 2005, it was the prices of the books rather than models that shocked me. A book went from an impulse buy to a planned purchase.

I liked the premise of AoS being rules light with free Warscrolls and basic rules when it first launched, there wasn't many companies doing it at the time, but unfortunately they seem to be walking back from that model.

[pnkdth]

3 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

People will say gatekeeping is bad, but then turn around and go "it's a luxury hobby bro."

Silver lining, GW has directed me to other more consumer friendly game studios.

Once upon a time this was a niche hobby but today there's so many games out there. I think GW is going to experience a similar trajectory to WoW as more and more players get tired of their nonsense and explore other areas of tabletop gaming. I doubt they'll go belly up, but right now they're acting as if they're the only game in town and you should pay them for the privilege of being a part of their exclusive club. Something I think it is going hurt them long-term because once you base your community on a payment model that is what your relationship will be based, measured, and valued on. This type of community building is also much more fragile than that built on personal investment on time/effort/social aspects.

TL;DR: To everyone wondering why people are upset over the removal of warscrolls. It isn't just because of that. Unless you've been living under a rock GW has made a series of decisions as of late to squeeze and control the community. You (in the general sense) might be able to keep on going as they, bit by bit, make this hobby more expensive and less accessible but for the rest of us, it is about having a broader perspective and not just how it impacts us individually.

Like @MarkK I went and explored other games and I'm loving it (Malifaux). Star/Frostgrave looks promising too. Who knows perhaps GW will notice the backlash and do something, eventually, but for now I'm #livingmybestlife without GW. 😂

[EntMan]

10 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

Silver lining, GW has directed me to other more consumer friendly game studios.

I haven't played it yet but I like the look of onepagerules. Added bonus it looks like their 'medieval fantasy' and 'future fantasy' systems are compatible. I'm old enough to remember my first foray into Rouge Trader and Fantasy Battle where it only took agreement on a few rule tweaks before my space marines, imp guards and squats could battle my friends fantasy army. Fun times.

[zilberfrid]

8 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Just to throw this out there but when you first started, did you? I’ve been playing GW games since second edition 40K and it never bothered me. You get a book explaining how the army works on the table, lots of cool pictures and all the background about it. I think as players get older and have seen a few editions, they look at the background differently because they know it and it doesn’t change much.

My only concern about the removal of the free warscrolls is it makes the journey for new players different. But having thought about this for a week now, the barebones how to play will be with the models and you will most likely get the books as well. 

I wanted to start fantasy, but considered the barrier of entry too high. AoS was more accessable, so I got into that. Then things changed, and I moved on.