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The End of Free Warscrolls


HollowHills

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40 minutes ago, Gotz said:

 

Core rules are kind of buried, but can still be downloaded from the website, but you need to subscribe to the newsletter.

https://ageofsigmar.com/core-rules/

Sure, for the base core rules, but there really is not reason why the army battle tomes can't be free. Just give folks the option to buy the book if need be. That would be really open up the system for more folks, instead of having multiple books. 

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It's a really, really bad decision, and it proves what some of us suspected for a while now - that free scrolls were never anything more than a way to entice people into a new game after they squatted WHFB. Now that AOS is established, they've done away with them.

This is something people shouldn't put up with. The idea that they're doing it because it's too hard to keep the scrolls on the website updated is frankly a bit silly, it's saying the reason they can't do one thing is because they won't bother to do another. 

This is another of GW's recent decisions aimed at squeezing even more money out of the player base to raise their already incredible margins by a few more % points to satisfy investors who demand continual stock price growth. I'm sorry if that sounds negative or not constructive, but I don't think there is any way to say this in a more positive way. It's not a positive decision. There are no positives to be had here, unless you're a GW investor rather than an AOS player. It's been one of the continuous puzzles of GW in the last year that they've actually been moving *away* from easy digital access to rules rather than towards it. 

 

Edited by yukishiro1
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I also don't understand what this really even accomplishes. They still sent Man Reads Book his copy of the books to read, so you can still view all the warscrolls via a GW-approved source for free on the internet...you just have to do it in an incredibly time-consuming and frustrating way, by clicking through a 2 hour long video without timestamps and then reading small text. I am almost tempted to email GW to point this out to them to urge them to keep posting the scrolls...but I'm pretty sure if that did anything at all, all it'd do is get Man Reads Book turned into Man Who Doesn't Read Book Any More. 

Edited by yukishiro1
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Oh no! Say it ain't so! A highly successful, multi-national, decades-lasting business that spends its resources (time, money, etc.) producing a product wants to exercise its rights to control how that product is obtained by others and to choose how it feels is the best way to recoup its investment in those products.

Don't they know that they've only lasted this long due to luck, and that if they just did what some customers think they should do they would be able to stay in business?

Grr.

 

I get that people like free stuff, and I get that we may have ideas about what we think a business should and should not do, but man, somehow, some way, GW has managed to be insanely successful forging their own path despite not doing every little thing that complainers want them to do.

I was one of those complainers when Warhammer was replaced by AoS. I even quit the hobby for about a year after having been in it for about 30 or so. But you know what? They made the right decision despite me being 100% convinced they were stupid at the time.

I think I'll trust them to know what is best for their long term health and for the success of Warhammer. If nothing else, their stock value pretty much pays for my hobby purchases, so that's a strong indicator to me that they are doing what I, as an investor and hobbyist, want.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sleboda
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5 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Oh no! Say it ain't so! A highly successful, multi-national, decades-lasting business that spends its resources (time, money, etc.) producing a product wants to exercise its rights to control how that product is obtained by others and to choose how it feels is the best way to recoup its investment in those products.

Don't they know that they've only lasted this long due to luck, and that if they just did what some customers think they should do they would be able to stay in business?

Grr.

 

I get that people like free stuff, and I get that we may have ideas about what we think a business should and should not do, but man, somehow, some way, GW has managed to be insanely successful forging their own path despite not doing every little thing that complainers want them to do.

I was one of those complainers when Warhammer was replaced by AoS. I even quit the hobby for about a year after having been in it for about 30 or so. But you know what? They made the right decision despite me being 100% convinced they were stupid at the time.

I think I'll trust them to know what is best for their long term health and for the success of Warhammer. If nothing else, their stock value pretty much pays for my hobby purchases, so that's a strong indicator to me that they are doing what I, as an investor and hobbyist, want.

 

 

 

 

 

In what possible way do you see this decision as being of benefit? What possible damage to their finances was free warscrolls doing? Games Workshop is very successful as you point out, and I'd be shocked if the existence of digital documents and free unit info hurt them in any form or fashion. Clearly people here aren't just demanding free goods without cause. I'd wager just about anyone active on a Warhammer forum would likely be someone who owns books and models from them. GW has already taken quite a lot of cash from people. We are people who have invested time, effort, and money into not just a board game but a hobby, a social experience, an artistic endeavor. I'd argue we are just as much investors as any stock owner is. If people want something that eases play and increases accessibility, how is that wrong? Why is accessibility bad? Why are we not justified in seeking changes that make the hobby more open for casual people and those on the fence?

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17 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I think I'll trust them to know what is best for their long term health and for the success of Warhammer. 

This is an argument that justifies any decision GW makes, ever, no matter what that decision is. I suppose you're still free to make it, but there's no actual substance here - it is literally just "GW did it so it must be right." 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Ar-Pharazôn said:

In what possible way do you see this decision as being of benefit?

I'm no more of an expert on their business than anyone else here, but if I had to guess, it's going to incentivize W+ subs, generating the sort of steady, predictable, recurring revenue stream that public businesses and their investors love.

It's less about the free model "damaging" them as you suggest, and more about a regular, monitized model being desirable.

 

To put it another way, which do you think a business owner (or it's investors if public) wants to hear:

1. "We THINK having free rules possibly increases sales by some amount."

2. "We have 20,000 monthly $5 subscribers, generating $X known monthly profit."

 

 

Edited by Sleboda
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23 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Oh no! Say it ain't so! A highly successful, multi-national, decades-lasting business that spends its resources (time, money, etc.) producing a product wants to exercise its rights to control how that product is obtained by others and to choose how it feels is the best way to recoup its investment in those products.

Don't they know that they've only lasted this long due to luck, and that if they just did what some customers think they should do they would be able to stay in business?

Grr.

 

I get that people like free stuff, and I get that we may have ideas about what we think a business should and should not do, but man, somehow, some way, GW has managed to be insanely successful forging their own path despite not doing every little thing that complainers want them to do.

I was one of those complainers when Warhammer was replaced by AoS. I even quit the hobby for about a year after having been in it for about 30 or so. But you know what? They made the right decision despite me being 100% convinced they were stupid at the time.

I think I'll trust them to know what is best for their long term health and for the success of Warhammer. If nothing else, their stock value pretty much pays for my hobby purchases, so that's a strong indicator to me that they are doing what I, as an investor and hobbyist, want.

 

There isn't much substance here; there is no benefit what so ever to go this route. Sure the company is free to publish their systems and products anyway they want, but then they are also not above being criticized when some practices are taking advantage of consumers. The sunk cost fallacy is definitely alive and well for GW followers, who are unable to criticize an anti-consumer move.  Would be interested to see what % of new folks coming into the hobby are actually purchasing some of this stuff compared to existing customers. I was looking at GW as a whole for the last few years with rose tinted glasses, and I was an avid defender, but some of these choices are very anti consumer compared to other companies who provide rule sets and supporting materials for free. 

I would suspect if GW were to roll this out as a brand new company today, it would not do very well compared to others, but since folks have been following it and invested into it over 30 years they are more likely to oversee potential criticisms. Also for reference, I have done my fair share of investing, I have a full WHFB Empire, Lizardmen; AOS: Beasts of Chaos, Idoneth Deepkin, Nighthaunt, Gravelords and started doing KruleBoyz but not anymore given the price increase of battletomes, and generally not enjoying the specific ruleset. The models themselves are definitely great, that can't be argued with. 

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18 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

2016 definitively showed that yes, community-friendly moves do have a positive impact on the business for GW. Though broadly speaking we already knew that because if fostering communities wasn't good for business companies wouldn't do it. But they do, a lot. They sink untold amounts of money into it. Because it works.

But I could imagine squeezing customers with more draconic design works well, too. I am quite sure there are some experienced economists/management guys at GW who know how to alter between free candy and some greedy choices so the community remains interested enough into buying the product while increasing margins. Until there is no competition big enough they have nothing to be afraid of. And in worst case, they still can buy up their competitors. 

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46 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I'm no more of an expert on their business than anyone else here, but if I had to guess, it's going to incentivize W+ subs, generating the sort of steady, predictable, recurring revenue stream that public businesses and their investors love.

It's less about the free model "damaging" them as you suggest, and more about a regular, monitized model being desirable.

 

To put it another way, which do you think a business owner (or it's investors if public) wants to hear:

1. "We THINK having free rules possibly increases sales by some amount."

2. "We have 20,000 monthly $5 subscribers, generating $X known monthly profit."

 

 

It's pointless to argue against your stance since as others pointed out it has no substance so I just have to ask. Is there ANY hypothetical move they can make that you would criticize and if so what is the minimum level of anti consumer behaviour that would actually cause you to dissent from your seeming blind fandom? Is there even a line they could cross with you?

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I'm unhappy with the decision, primarily for two reasons - it will be a lot harder to get new players into AoS now I can't just guide them along with an army of their choice off the app (unless it's an un-updated army on the app, but these will become obsolete in time), and it's also harder for me to quietly check on an opposing unit and instead I have to ask my opponent every time I want to know what something can do. 

Moreover, I struggle to see how this will benefit sales more than it will hurt newcomers. The model of free warscroll rules on the app and paid allegiance abilities in the tome kept a happy medium of new players being able to start simple while making sure the battletome was mandatory for any sort of competitive play.  It was a pretty natural flow all things considered, meaning people were happier to experiment with new armies they were on the fence about and buy into them when happy. Now those people will likely not take the risk and not spend a good amount of money on the book. 

40k does get away with it, but 40k has been around for much longer and has a much larger playerbase. AoS still feels like it's finding its feet, and I'm not sure if we'll see much of a growth in players, because one of the biggest selling points of AoS over 40k was being able to get started super easily by just looking at a few rules on an app. 

Overall, I hope the decision is reversed, or at least lessened when AoS new app comes out. It does feel like internet discourse around AoS has seemed more negative after 3e, but that could just be an observational bias. 

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1 hour ago, The Red King said:

It's pointless to argue against your stance since as others pointed out it has no substance so I just have to ask. Is there ANY hypothetical move they can make that you would criticize and if so what is the minimum level of anti consumer behaviour that would actually cause you to dissent from your seeming blind fandom? Is there even a line they could cross with you?

Oh, sure, there are lines. It's not blind fandom. I've offered plenty of harsh criticism here and in other places over the years. I've even given one example of them cancelling Warhammer getting me so upset that I quit for a year. More recently, I've significantly reduced my advance purchases because of two factors - the product not meeting expectations once it's in my hands, and the unacceptable pace of Battletome/Codex obsolescence & replacement. I used to order every book and all wardcrolls automatically, and got limited editions of those I suspected would be favorites. Now I skip warscrolls for armies I don't intend to play, only get Battletomes for armies I will be collecting, and get the limited books very, very rarely. I just can't keep throwing cash at books that need errata day one and will likely be replaced entirely in just a few years. Don't even get me going on the Lumineth and Slaanesh books. I believe they deliberately cut them both in half in order to sell you the "same" book twice. That's some pretty awful behavior right there.

Then there is the Cursed City fiasco. I don't care what theories are out there. I won't rehash the whole thing here, but their lack of communication and other issues surrounding that really ticked me off, and I said that on this very site at that time.

The Black Library novels that are literally sold out before my market even has the chance to preorder them - despite their site showing them available and then waiting in a queue only to find out later that they were never actually available to me - upsets me greatly. That's some BS right there.

I was also pretty upset when they canned me in an IT downsizing effort after nearly 12 years of happy and loyal service. That was not good and made me mad at them for a long time.

So, plenty of what they do upsets me. Just not stuff like them, as is the right of any business, to determine which sales strategies make them the most money.

Edit: Just thought of another thing that would put me off. If they moved to pre-painted models, even just as an option (which, btw, was on the table and experimented with when I worked for them), I'd probably stop being their customer.

Edited by Sleboda
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I am hoping this is temporary and they are just waiting for the warhammer app to start giving them out freely again. I made a close group of regulars by playing matches at a local store with a friend. People were interested in the models so we scrolled through the warscrolls alongside what they found cool and they basically started their list building and purchasing through that. Without an easy way to guide the new players in their decision making our group would have likely never taken off as people would have made poor purchases and left out of frustration (think on how you would react if your first purchase was a few hundred dollars of Slaangors). Even WITH the scrolls available there has still been some losses due to the loose rules and poor warscrolls of some units not living up to their tabletop miniatures appearance (RIP our Beasts of Chaos player).

 

Frankly I will just acquire the rules elsewhere and this cools any enthusiasm I have for new releases/purchases/supporting GW directly for the time being. My current project Soul blight army will remain unfinished for the time being.

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1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

Oh, sure, there are lines. It's not blind fandom. I've offered plenty of harsh criticism here and in other places over the years. I've even given one example of them cancelling Warhammer getting me so upset that I quit for a year. More recently, I've significantly reduced my advance purchases because of two factors - the product not meeting expectations once it's in my hands, and the unacceptable pace of Battletome/Codex obsolescence & replacement. I used to order every book and all wardcrolls automatically, and got limited editions of those I suspected would be favorites. Now I skip warscrolls for armies I don't intend to play, only get Battletomes for armies I will be collecting, and get the limited books very, very rarely. I just can't keep throwing cash at books that need errata day one and will likely be replaced entirely in just a few years. Don't even get me going on the Lumineth and Slaanesh books. I believe they deliberately cut them both in half in order to sell you the "same" book twice. That's some pretty awful behavior right there.

Then there is the Cursed City fiasco. I don't care what theories are out there. I won't rehash the whole thing here, but their lack of communication and other issues surrounding that really ticked me off, and I said that on this very site at that time.

The Black Library novels that are literally sold out before my market even has the chance to preorder them - despite their site showing them available and then waiting in a queue only to find out later that they were never actually available to me - upsets me greatly. That's some BS right there.

I was also pretty upset when they canned me in an IT downsizing effort after nearly 12 years of happy and loyal service. That was not good and made me mad at them for a long time.

So, plenty of what they do upsets me. Just not stuff like them, as is the right of any business, to determine which sales strategies make them the most money.

Edit: Just thought of another thing that would put me off. If they moved to pre-painted models, even just as an option (which, btw, was on the table and experimented with when I worked for them), I'd probably stop being their customer.

Ok...but then why do you not give GW the benefit of the doubt on all those decisions that they must be the right decisions since GW made them? Those decisions must be in the best interests of GW and the hobby too, since GW has been so successful, right? If not, what makes the decision to discontinue free scrolls the right decision because GW is successful but these decisions not the right decisions because GW is successful? 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

Don't even get me going on the Lumineth and Slaanesh books. I believe they deliberately cut them both in half in order to sell you the "same" book twice. That's some pretty awful behavior right there.

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

Just not stuff like them, as is the right of any business, to determine which sales strategies make them the most money.

 

This isn't a gotcha but a genuine question.

What do you feel is the difference between what they did with LRL and Slaneesh and this move that you consider to be their "right to determine their business strategy".

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Hey, GW, could you may be modernize a bit further and post all the rule related information in a coherent and organized way for free on your site and apps, so it could be viewed and comprehensively updated at any time, thus benefiting both your customers and your game popularity? Such transparency would make getting new people into the game much... Oh... Instead you... OH...

 

Honestly, there are 2 reasons I personally can see for this desision. It's either a short sighted and short term greed (AoS is popular enough, let's milk it like 40k from now on) or GW is afraid that due to 3D printers they could become rules and content company in 15 years. Both reasons are not valid for such a desision right now, so if we want to have a slight change of GW changing this... Well, you know the drill, boycott, "constructive" riot and drama. It would probably not get us a desired effect, but hey, at least it's fun.

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1 hour ago, BigNStinky said:

I am hoping this is temporary and they are just waiting for the warhammer app to start giving them out freely again. I made a close group of regulars by playing matches at a local store with a friend. People were interested in the models so we scrolled through the warscrolls alongside what they found cool and they basically started their list building and purchasing through that. Without an easy way to guide the new players in their decision making our group would have likely never taken off as people would have made poor purchases and left out of frustration (think on how you would react if your first purchase was a few hundred dollars of Slaangors). Even WITH the scrolls available there has still been some losses due to the loose rules and poor warscrolls of some units not living up to their tabletop miniatures appearance (RIP our Beasts of Chaos player).

Frankly I will just acquire the rules elsewhere and this cools any enthusiasm I have for new releases/purchases/supporting GW directly for the time being. My current project Soul blight army will remain unfinished for the time being.

May I suggest Oathmark as a place to get rules?

It's rather quick to understand and has a very interesting army creation/campaign mechanic where you build your kingdom.

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