The End of Free Warscrolls

[EMMachine]

6 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

About the "free advertisement" argument, I do get your point from a customer's point of view. Believe it or not, as a customer myself, I do agree with Runebrush here : rather than keeping them on the webstore, I would simply move them on warhammer-community. However, if I was in the shoes of GW and seeing what is the content of new battletomes...I do see why they took another road in the end. Warscrolls are now a huger part of the main rules than in 2.0 - and thus the battletome's rule content. If they were still "free", there's even less incentive to buy the books afterwards, IMHO.

I think you would buy the book for your main army anyway because you will most likely need the Allegiance Abilities.

So like others said, you wouldn't need the book if you only want one unit as an ally (at least as long as you get the points for that unit).

It's basicly the same with the campaign books. In second edition if a warscroll was updated in a campaign book, it was possible to download and print the new Warscroll, while using the points from the warscroll builder, or get an update from a 2 player campaign box that wasn't released with the Battletome and was most likely sold out with release.

It was possible to get warscroll updates for free and without subscriptions.

[zilberfrid]

7 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

I think you would buy the book for your main army anyway because you will most likely need the Allegiance Abilities.

So like others said, you wouldn't need the book if you only want one unit as an ally (at least as long as you get the points for that unit).

It's basicly the same with the campaign books. In second edition if a warscroll was updated in a campaign book, it was possible to download and print the new Warscroll, while using the points from the warscroll builder, or get an update from a 2 player campaign box that wasn't released with the Battletome and was most likely sold out with release.

It was possible to get warscroll updates for free and without subscriptions.

I just realized I didn't get the changed warscrolls for my CoS armies when available, which means there is no book or intended way outside the Warhammer + app to get the right scrolls. I'd need to download all the CoS warscrolls while still available and I really don't feel like doing that.

[Sarouan]

15 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

I think you would buy the book for your main army anyway because you will most likely need the Allegiance Abilities.

With reviews online, it's not a problem to have them. Even more with 3.0, since they're even less of them and options now (the way subfactions are treated is a big part of it, of course).

 

15 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

So like others said, you wouldn't need the book if you only want one unit as an ally (at least as long as you get the points for that unit).

Granted, but in that case, it's still easy to have what you need from a review. It's more tedious, indeed, but if that's your only argument, that doesn't stand IMHO.

If players really don't want to buy the book and want to have just the rules of one allied unit, they won't just stop at the warscroll missing from the webstore.

About the "missing sale"...TBH, I'm not sure people stopping at that - not having the warscroll easily available without having to pay - are actually thinking of always buying miniatures from the GW webstore, in the end. If you just need the rules and don't care to have the official GW rules at hand, I'm pretty sure you also don't mind using miniatures from other sources. GW can't miss a sale that was never intended at the beginning, after all.

 

15 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

It's basicly the same with the campaign books. In second edition if a warscroll was updated in a campaign book, it was possible to download and print the new Warscroll, while using the points from the warscroll builder, or get an update from a 2 player campaign box that wasn't released with the Battletome and was most likely sold out with release.

It was possible to get warscroll updates for free and without subscriptions.

It's possible now via the app and the code from your battletome, actually.

And if you don't want to use the app...warscrolls updates can be found in the FAQ now (like they did upgrade the army endless spells when 3.0 came).

So not having the warscrolls on the webstore isn't a problem in itself here.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Sarouan

[Sarouan]

2 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I just realized I didn't get the changed warscrolls for my CoS armies when available, which means there is no book or intended way outside the Warhammer + app to get the right scrolls. I'd need to download all the CoS warscrolls while still available and I really don't feel like doing that.

So it doesn't matter if they were on the webstore or in the app, if you don't feel downloading everything anyway.

And yeah, it's a lot of work either way. Playing AoS up to date isn't easy !

[EMMachine]

6 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I just realized I didn't get the changed warscrolls for my CoS armies when available, which means there is no book or intended way outside the Warhammer + app to get the right scrolls. I'd need to download all the CoS warscrolls while still available and I really don't feel like doing that.

Which warscrolls do you mean? The once that are in the Battletome itself, updates from Campaignbooks?

6 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

With reviews online, it's not a problem to have them. Even more with 3.0, since they're even less of them and options now (the way subfactions are treated is a big part of it, of course).

This works if the warscroll is shown completly, the problem is if the rules were added contextdriven to the text. Something like the last Article about Bastian Carthalos:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/18/bastian-carthalos-sigmars-hardest-general-is-leaving-the-war-room-to-smash-some-skulls-in-person/

13 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Granted, but in that case, it's still easy to have what you need from a review. It's more tedious, indeed, but if that's your only argument, that doesn't stand IMHO.

Yeah, but most of the time prints of the review have quite bad quality.

[Sarouan]

3 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

This works if the warscroll is shown completly, the problem is if the rules were added contextdriven to the text. Something like the last Article about Bastian Carthalos:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/18/bastian-carthalos-sigmars-hardest-general-is-leaving-the-war-room-to-smash-some-skulls-in-person/

....

Yeah, but most of the time prints of the review have quite bad quality.

Yeah, that's why I said it's more tedious now. But it still doesn't stop you from doing it if you really don't want to buy the book.

I bought the book even if I don't intend to play Stormcast Eternal as my main army, by the way, because I can and it's more convenient to me.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

54 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

About the "free advertisement" argument, I do get your point from a customer's point of view. Believe it or not, as a customer myself, I do agree with Runebrush here : rather than keeping them on the webstore, I would simply move them on warhammer-community. However, if I was in the shoes of GW and seeing what is the content of new battletomes...I do see why they took another road in the end. Warscrolls are now a huger part of the main rules than in 2.0 - and thus the battletome's rule content. If they were still "free", there's even less incentive to buy the books afterwards, IMHO.

Obviously, it really concerns the veteran players most of the time. Battletomes are still very good value for the complete newbies ; having the lore, a good painting guide and all the rulesto play your army in the same book. People really using warscrolls on the webstore are more those who know the game for quite some time / did buy the books from previous versions and thus don't need that muych the lore and painting guides - they're just looking for the rules. And they know warscrolls are half the battle (points and core rules can be quite easy to find on reviews online / can be found in the general hanbook for older versions).

Which is why they are angry GW didn't put the new 3.0 warscrolls on the webstore, because it's more tedious to gather the full rules from reviews now. The battletome looks the more convenient way...for a price, and that's the real issue IMHO. They don't want to pay for the rules, in the end.

I just find it all kind of mysterious why buying into AoS should work like this.

AoS is a strategy game with a hobby component. So the two deciding factors when buying models should be their rules and their aesthetics. So how does it make sense that the rules of models are hard to access? How does it make sense that battletomes are not seen as a cool lore compendium, painting guide and rules *reference* book, but are instead treated as the rules *delivery* mechanism (with lore and painting stuff bundled in, whether you need or want them or not)? It's not like it's still the 90s and this is the only way to reasonably do things.

I think you are right in identifying GW's motivation for making the warscrolls less accessible. They want to sell more books and turn you onto the app (hopefully making that Warhammer+ subscription more attractive to you). There is no great enigma here. But it's not a good thing. It's like the definition of anti-consumer tactics: Trying to get more money out of your customers not by improving your products, but by making them less convenient to use and selling the convenience back to them at a price. Which, by the way, only affects your most honest customers. Those that have no problem with piracy don't get penalized in this way.

Personally, I think it's a quite weird state of affairs that there is no easy way to compare the rules of different armies before buying anything. At least for allegiance abilities and such. I suppose the warscrolls are still free in the app for now, at least (although let's see how that develops when the beta ends).

[Sarouan]

28 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think you are right in identifying GW's motivation for making the warscrolls less accessible. They want to sell more books and turn you onto the app (hopefully making that Warhammer+ subscription more attractive to you). There is no great enigma here. But it's not a good thing. It's like the definition of anti-consumer tactics: Trying to get more money out of your customers not by improving your products, but by making them less convenient to use and selling the convenience back to them at a price. Which, by the way, only affects your most honest customers. Those that have no problem with piracy don't get penalized in this way.

Improving your products ? What are you talking about ? Free warscrolls on the webstore aren't "improved products" in themselves. How do you see the recent battletomes for Stormcast Eternals and Orruk Warclans for 3.0, then ? Because they are a different version of the rules themselves, and what you could call an upgrade of a previous product (in this case, battletome for the previous edition).

Or are you advocating GW shouldn't make new editions at all ? That's another debate entirely.

[EMMachine]

44 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I think you are right in identifying GW's motivation for making the warscrolls less accessible. They want to sell more books and turn you onto the app (hopefully making that Warhammer+ subscription more attractive to you). There is no great enigma here. But it's not a good thing. It's like the definition of anti-consumer tactics: Trying to get more money out of your customers not by improving your products, but by making them less convenient to use and selling the convenience back to them at a price. Which, by the way, only affects your most honest customers. Those that have no problem with piracy don't get penalized in this way.

Personally, I think it's a quite weird state of affairs that there is no easy way to compare the rules of different armies before buying anything. At least for allegiance abilities and such. I suppose the warscrolls are still free in the app for now, at least (although let's see how that develops when the beta ends).

I think it is also the price of the books. I'm in the hobby since 4. Edition 40k and back then their weren't free rules for units, but a Codex in 40k (and most likely the armybooks of WHFB) did cost between 15,-€ - 20,-€ (I think my Tau codex costed 17,50€ back than). I heard from others that they were most likely to buy codizes or armybooks of army they didn't own back then than now where we have prices between 32,50 € and 37,50 €. I'm most likely one of the rare hobbist type who still tries to buy mostly all books I can get, but GW would most likely sell more books for a cheaper price because it would be more affortable for the community to get a view over all the rules (and not with a subscription where you basicly lose all access to the content if you stop subscribing).

44 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

AoS is a strategy game with a hobby component. So the two deciding factors when buying models should be their rules and their aesthetics. So how does it make sense that the rules of models are hard to access? How does it make sense that battletomes are not seen as a cool lore compendium, painting guide and rules *reference* book, but are instead treated as the rules *delivery* mechanism (with lore and painting stuff bundled in, whether you need or want them or not)? It's not like it's still the 90s and this is the only way to reasonably do things.

We see that it works by looking at D&D (or most roleplaying games). Most of the books exept the players handbook, Dungeonmaster Book and most likely a Beastinary are optional. Still those companies didn't went bankrupt.

Edited October 28, 2021 by EMMachine

[pnkdth]

1 hour ago, Sarouan said:

However, if I was in the shoes of GW and seeing what is the content of new battletomes...I do see why they took another road in the end. Warscrolls are now a huger part of the main rules than in 2.0 - and thus the battletome's rule content. If they were still "free", there's even less incentive to buy the books afterwards, IMHO.

Obviously, it really concerns the veteran players most of the time. Battletomes are still very good value for the complete newbies ; having the lore, a good painting guide and all the rulesto play your army in the same book. People really using warscrolls on the webstore are more those who know the game for quite some time / did buy the books from previous versions and thus don't need that muych the lore and painting guides - they're just looking for the rules. And they know warscrolls are half the battle (points and core rules can be quite easy to find on reviews online / can be found in the general hanbook for older versions).

Which is why they are angry GW didn't put the new 3.0 warscrolls on the webstore, because it's more tedious to gather the full rules from reviews now. The battletome looks the more convenient way...for a price, and that's the real issue IMHO. They don't want to pay for the rules, in the end.

Who actually does this? I mean, I've done some information hunting during leaks and hype-up periods but I've never seen or played against a player who arrived at a game with a bunch of printed warscrolls and pages pulled from different sites. Plus, how do you know "the real issue" is not wanting to pay for the rules? Is this something you can back up? Wondering since most people I listen to enjoyed them for their convenience not as a replacement for the rules.

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

Which warscrolls do you mean? The once that are in the Battletome itself, updates from Campaignbooks?

This works if the warscroll is shown completly, the problem is if the rules were added contextdriven to the text. Something like the last Article about Bastian Carthalos:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/18/bastian-carthalos-sigmars-hardest-general-is-leaving-the-war-room-to-smash-some-skulls-in-person/

Yeah, but most of the time prints of the review have quite bad quality.

I mean the currently legal ones including changes they made for 3.0 that actually didn't explain their workings better than the previous text.

1 hour ago, Sarouan said:

So it doesn't matter if they were on the webstore or in the app, if you don't feel downloading everything anyway.

And yeah, it's a lot of work either way. Playing AoS up to date isn't easy !

I have several units (in multiple states of on sprue, built and painted) that are not on a current list, and I have warscrolls in books and cards of them (in my CoS army, my Stormcast mostly have warscrolls in the boxes). If I would add them, printing that warscroll would be easy. Downloading it now on the off chance that it's still the same when I actually want to use it is a bit more of a hassle.

[Sarouan]

3 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I mean the currently legal ones including changes they made for 3.0 that actually didn't explain their workings better than the previous text.

Oh, that. They didn't change the free warscrolls that were on the webstore with the 3.0 FAQ.

 

3 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Downloading it now on the off chance that it's still the same when I actually want to use it is a bit more of a hassle.

Was the same when they were available on the webstore. Nothing said they were updated at all, you had to check manually yourself if you didn't follow the meta of AoS at the dates FAQs were updated / expansions came.

[Sarouan]

23 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

Who actually does this?

Usually people playing in private groups. Of course, it doesn't concern people playing at official GW events - well, maybe very cheeky ones.

23 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

Plus, how do you know "the real issue" is not wanting to pay for the rules?

Because if you have the rules, you don't need to check the warscrolls on the webstore. They are in your book.

 

23 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

Is this something you can back up?

Same for people here complaining about free warscrolls being removed as a big deal in itself : personnal subjective opinion with no numbers backing them.

 

23 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

Wondering since most people I listen to enjoyed them for their convenience not as a replacement for the rules.

Yes, it was very convenient. Convenience was never in question. Thread went on more than that, though, and that was the other arguments I was answering to.

[zilberfrid]

16 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Oh, that. They didn't change the free warscrolls that were on the webstore with the 3.0 FAQ.

Was the same when they were available on the webstore. Nothing said they were updated at all, you had to check manually yourself if you didn't follow the meta of AoS at the dates FAQs were updated / expansions came.

Ah, so the current warscrolls are not available anyway outside WH+. That makes the decision whether to accept an AoS challenge from a friend a lot easier and I'm going to counteroffer with a Frostgrave or Oathmark game including the rulebook.

I'm going to bow out of any rules discussions or anything regarding the game itself. GW makes nice models, but neither the AoS 3 rules nor GW's distribution of them entice me in the slightest, and any of my braintime alotted to them is wasted.

[EMMachine]

30 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I mean the currently legal ones including changes they made for 3.0 that actually didn't explain their workings better than the previous text.

Like @Sarouan said, the 3.0 changes were never added to the free warscrolls, and it wasn't the case in the older editions. (only the 2.0 App view of the warscroll was updated).

The changes you need are here in the faqs for the factions.

It is actually quite rare that GW changed a warscroll by adding a new one into the shoppage. I only remember plague monks and Grundstok Thunderers. Most of the time the pdf was only changed if their was a new printed warscroll (new Battletome, Campaign Book, Boxset). FAQs never changed a Warscroll PDF.

Edited October 28, 2021 by EMMachine

[Orbei]

41 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Because if you have the rules, you don't need to check the warscrolls on the webstore. They are in your book.

And what if you are a new player who is trying to pick an army and wants to know what the models do before buying them? 

What about wanting to know what units of an opposing faction do? Allegiance abilities are one thing to wrap one's head around, but personally I like to look at scrolls for other armies. I am never going to play Chaos but I sure as heck like knowing what Pink Horrors, Archaon, Demon Princes, etc actually do. How else am I supposed to prepare for them? Or should every game begin with a 10 minute book study period where you hand the opponent your tome?

1 hour ago, Sarouan said:

Improving your products ? What are you talking about ?

They are saying that GW is adding a paywall to generate revenue, rather than doing so by offering customers an improved product/value proposition. Something that was previously free is no longer free. It didn't get better in the process. 

Yes you had to buy the battletome to use the allegiance abilities before, and you still do. Not the point. Now you need to buy the battletome just to see what things do. This has an impact on knowing what you want to buy in the first place. It also hurts ones understanding of the overall game.

[Enoby]

18 minutes ago, Orbei said:

What about wanting to know what units of an opposing faction do? Allegiance abilities are one thing to wrap one's head around, but personally I like to look at scrolls for other armies. I am never going to play Chaos but I sure as heck like knowing what Pink Horrors, Archaon, Demon Princes, etc actually do. How else am I supposed to prepare for them? Or should every game begin with a 10 minute book study period where you hand the opponent your tome?

I had a similar experience when fighting a Sloggoth - it looks kind of scary and I knew it gave a buff, but I didn't want to have to interrupt my opponent when they were thinking through their turn to see how scary it actually was in combat. Just being able to quietly plan your turn without disturbing your opponent is such a big boon.

[Orbei]

4 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I had a similar experience when fighting a Sloggoth - it looks kind of scary and I knew it gave a buff, but I didn't want to have to interrupt my opponent when they were thinking through their turn to see how scary it actually was in combat. Just being able to quietly plan your turn without disturbing your opponent is such a big boon.

I have no idea what a Sloggoth does and now am curious! Going to check real quick - not by buying the battletome.

[pnkdth]

1 minute ago, Sarouan said:

Usually people playing in private groups. Of course, it doesn't concern people playing at official GW events - well, maybe very cheeky ones.

Because if you have the rules, you don't need to check the warscrolls on the webstore. They are in your book.

 

Same for people here complaining about free warscrolls being removed as a big deal in itself : personnal subjective opinion with no numbers backing them.

 

Yes, it was very convenient. Convenience was never in question. Thread went on more than that, though, and that was the other arguments I was answering to.

People who do that will just use a publicly known site rhyming with wikipedia. That subset of players won't ever be convinced to buy anything unless you make things more convenient and/or cheaper. Making thing less convenient is going drive even more people into that direction or away from warhammer in general. If we can learn anything from other media/video gaming industries is that putting the market in a stranglehold creates more pirates, opens you up to being disrupted and having players leave for other services.

I meant, how do you know the real motive behind wanting warscrolls to be out in the open is to avoid buying the rules? I'm only answering on behalf of myself and those I've listened to (and in this thread). The issue I have with the argument is that you're presuming to know other people's reasons and I've never encountered anyone who didn't end up buying their faction's book. Both from as a convenience factor and getting people into the hobby, the removal of the warscrolls seem to be a bit paranoid on behalf of GW. As in they're lashing out against something which probably wasn't a large enough issue worth alienating potential new (and old) players for.

So it is not just the convenience aspect. It is also a practical aspect of getting into and to grips with the hobby as a whole. This has just gotten a lot harder to do since you have to tell your friend to make a financial investment before even being sure what to pick or if they're interested at all. You really end up in a bad place if the default position is that players are going to snub you of your money (as it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy).

 

[RuneBrush]

6 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Can't check now, but I thought the file on the store page was already a link to another filestore, so the PDFs themselves wouldn't be traffic from the store page.

That doesn't say anything about the load the store itself generates before clicking that page.

They used to be in an S3 bucket, but that means you can't record the number of downloads of a file.  Can't recall when but GW shifted it over to their store - it may be a simple forwarding mechanism and the files physically on S3 (it's how I handle invoices and ensuring you have to be authorised to download), but it costs for the bandwidth.

[Sarouan]

1 hour ago, Orbei said:

And what if you are a new player who is trying to pick an army and wants to know what the models do before buying them? 

Well, he certainly doesn't start by the warscrolls on the webstore, because they won't be telling him much at the beginning. He asks someone who plays first and gets a demo ideally. And it's better to direct him towards the battletomes instead (especially when they're in a store and most shop manager - even GW ones - will allow you to show you what's inside for illustrations of their arguments).

Like I said, free warscrolls on the webstore aren't for new players. They're for people who know the game.

 

1 hour ago, Orbei said:

What about wanting to know what units of an opposing faction do?

That's a fair question ! How do you think people playing 40k or Warhammer Battle before did ? The old way...by asking people who do / reading articles online, read your opponent's book or buy the book yourself if you really want to be knowledgeable on a higher level of competition.

Like I said, convenience was never in question for free warscrolls.

 

1 hour ago, Orbei said:

They are saying that GW is adding a paywall to generate revenue, rather than doing so by offering customers an improved product/value proposition. Something that was previously free is no longer free. It didn't get better in the process. 

But it wasn't a product in itself. It was simply a rule given by GW "for free", with no guarantee it would stay that way forever.

In fact, if you're talking about the real products like miniatures, you can argue that the warscroll present in boxes before the new 3.0 package is indeed not the same "value" than the one present in the new 3.0 package (there's still something to play, but less detailed and "updated"). However, for boxes that do not have the 3.0 package, warscroll is still the same. In fact, you have even older boxes with an even older version of the warscroll inside.

Does that mean they are all products giving less value for the money ? Not sure about that.

As for the real rule products - meaning books and campaign boxes...they are not concerned by the free warscrolls for an obvious reason.

That it was a convenience that's no more there, I agree.

As for the paywall...well, yes. That's why I'm saying the main issue is that they don't want to pay for the rules. They don't want to pay for the app for the same reason.

 

1 hour ago, Orbei said:

Now you need to buy the battletome just to see what things do.

That's not at all what warscrolls do. They give the rules of the unit, but units aren't just something you take out of context and - most importantly - from their army's synergy. Online reviews and social media discussions are much more relevant for that purpose. And they'll still be around.

Exactly the same for40k and Warhammer Battle before. If their players managed, you will be able to as well.

Is it more tedious and less convenient ? Of course it is ! But if you're so determined not to pay just to "see what things do"...don't worry. You'll still find a way in the end. Like 40 players and Battle ones before you.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy free warscrolls aren't around anymore. But trying to build an argument out of "I don't want to pay for the rules" to justify using free warscrolls instead of, you know, the books....well, we all know that the end reason is money, be it for GW or the customers.

Of course if there's a "free stuff", it's the free stuff that will be used. That's not "missed sales" or "free advertising"...that's just human nature taking the most convenient and cheapest way. Free warcrolls combined the 2. Now they're not there anymore ? Depends of your motivation to keep having "free rules" or want to "see what things do" before buying.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Sarouan

[Sarouan]

52 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

I meant, how do you know the real motive behind wanting warscrolls to be out in the open is to avoid buying the rules?

Well, I mean...it's the fact people feel they are pressured to buy the book to have the rules that they are so concerned about the removal of free warscrolls that is clearly getting out in this thread, at least from those who are the more vehement.

So yeah, money is the factor here. Because for convenience...there's the app to keep consulting the profiles online whenever you want, isn't there.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Sarouan

[CommissarRotke]

8 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Well, he certainly doesn't start by the warscrolls on the webstore, because they won't be telling him much at the beginning.

I'm sorry but this thread is full of people telling you we did exactly that--going through warscrolls on the webstore before buying anything, or showing new people the game and using these scrolls *for a demo*

14 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy free warscrolls aren't around anymore. But trying to build an argument out of "I don't want to pay for the rules" to justify using free warscrolls instead of, you know, the books....well, we all know that the end reason is money, be it for GW or the customers.

 

"I don't want to pay for rules" is a bad faith reading of people saying "I would like to double check my opponents warscrolls without buying every single book." GW made an improvement in rules delivery via webstore warscrolls, which they now got rid of in lieu for the apps. They had an improvement and they removed it with zero explanation. This is a net-negative, because again, this thread is full of people saying the accessibility of these warscrolls has driven not only interest but sales for their groups.

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Sarouan said:

Improving your products ? What are you talking about ? Free warscrolls on the webstore aren't "improved products" in themselves. How do you see the recent battletomes for Stormcast Eternals and Orruk Warclans for 3.0, then ? Because they are a different version of the rules themselves, and what you could call an upgrade of a previous product (in this case, battletome for the previous edition).

Or are you advocating GW shouldn't make new editions at all ? That's another debate entirely.

The game of Age of Sigmar as a whole is the product GW is selling. They are doing a lot of things to make it attractive: Making good-looking miniatures, writing interesting rules, run physical stores that make it easy to find and play games... If you are trying to think about the value of a GW product and wnat to figure out whether it's a good deal or not, it's not enough to just look at the exact item you are paying money for (like a battletome or a miniature). You also have to think about factors that indirectly raise or lower the value of what you are getting. Things like how easy it is to find a game or, indeed, if you need to buy an extra book to find out what the model you just picked up actually does in game. In this context, if you take AoS the way it currently works and compare it to a version of the game that is exactly the same, but you don't need to buy any books to get the most up-to-date rules, that version is of the game is an improved product compared to the one that currently exists. Of course, there are other ways to improve the game of AoS as a product, as well. New battletomes and editions can be a way (although obviously are not always, shoutout to the Sylvaneth 2.0 battletome). As can better-looking miniatures.

I don't know how you arrived at the topic of whether there should/should not be new editions. I certainly didn't have that in mind. When talking about anti-consumer policies, I was thinking of stuff like youtube trying to sell you the ability to play videos on your phone with the screen locked as part of their premium subscription service. This was not a technological innovation. It was always possible to play videos with a locked screen. What they did was change their website/app so that it normally pauses the video, and then bring back the feature for a fee. That did not improve the product at all: They first made youtube less convenient to use, then tried to sell the convenience feature they removed back. In my mind, what is currently happening with warscrolls is similar. It used to be no problem to look up basically any warscroll from any device with a web browser. You now need a dedicated app to do the same, and it's not even clear that they will indeed stay free in the future.

If this happens, it's overall a bad development. Not just in terms of "I don't want to pay extra", but also in the context of free market economics. The justification for having a free market is not that it maximizes corporate profit (even though that is what it feels like sometimes), it is that a free market supposedly is the most efficient at meeting everyon's needs (and in this case, wants). A product being sold is supposed to succeed or fail based on it's own merits. In this case, we are looking at one way in which a market can fail, in which a corporation decides that selling an inferior product is more profitable than a superior one. AoS would be better as a game if rules were easily accesible (holding everything else fixed), but GW considers the version of AoS in which rules are hard to access (buy battletomes, get the app) more profitable. It's not a good development even if your argument comes from a place in favour of free-market economics (which I hope is the source for most "GW can do what they want with their IPs" points of view).

[Sinbin]

10 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

That's why I'm saying the main issue is that they don't want to pay for the rules.

I can only speak for myself, but that's incorrect.  It's also incorrect, anecdotally, for some of the chaps i've started playing AoS with from around my area.  

I came back to GW after almost a decade away.  When I came back, I was basically a total new player, I hardly remembered any of the rules and, in the case of AoS, had zero knowledge on how it worked.  I only decided to come back after reading the rules online and browsing through all of the freely available warscrolls.  Sure, I had little context to what they meant, but I at least felt more prepared to start playing a game none of my friends played.  

Free rules from an established company indicate one of two things:

1. The rules are secondary to the models.  They're their to drive model sales and aren't meant to be a main focus, just something for you to do with said models.  Which is actually a good model.

2. The rules are free to facilitate a competitive environment, as free information is the bedrock of any competitive scene.  The company is selling you a system, rather than just models.  Warmachine & Hordes typifies this.

AoS falls (fell?) squarely into #1.  It's why I decided to buy-in, because it was a goofy ruleset with ostentatious, ridiculous models.  It felt like it would feel good to play all the way from the models to the rules.  And it is!  So I bought both the battletome and the rulebook when I picked up the models I need.  But free rules are a signpost to how a company views both its customers and the ecosystem for its models.  Not free rules, in this day and age, are like getting a faint whiff of mold when you enter a hotel room.  Not necessarily a deal-breaker, but not a great sign either.