The End of Free Warscrolls

[The Red King]

10 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

I am curious if Warhammer+ fails through if we will see a return of free warscrolls ? I feel so conflicted with the company as the rules, lore and models have really appealed to my sensibilities lately... but every corporate choice has been so negative and resulted in such a massive backlash. I think if they are going to hide warscrolls behind paywalls give us cheaper options for the battletomes.  

Also, I thought this Forum was pro pirates?

*I'm not actually gonna @ the mods for this joke* 

 

Everyone say bye to Neverchosen before he gets banned lol

[Enoby]

20 hours ago, stratigo said:

Old white men. 

 

I desperately don't want a hobby that caters to middle aged and older white dudes over everyone else. I'd rather they cater to excitable 12 year olds. Seriously the demographics of warhammer get real distressing if you price or otherwise block out anyone but the upper middle class and above. And the politics of a plurality of these dudes makes a community ultra toxic (this is certainly true in my local community) to people like me (you know, lgbt people. But also minorities and cis women, which is why its old white dudes and no old white ladies.) So even those non old white men who COULD participate leave because enough of the old white men are just too hateful to be around.

++Mod Hat++

(This is only in relation to this part of your post, everything else is fine!)

I do get what you're saying here and, as you may already know, I am also very pro-diversity when it comes to the AoS community and models, being one of the 'politcals' myself . However, I think it would be a good idea to not make the topic more divisive by pointing the blame at the plurality of "old white guys"; I do get that you're not saying "all old white guys" and are rather referring to those who exist as the nasty underbelly to the community, but the way it's currently worded does suggest a large chunk of this subgroup are cruel people which I don't think is fair. 

It sucks to be generalised, and I can't imagine it feels great for some of the 'old white guys' who are great people to read this. I do get you're not trying to say all old white guys are evil, but it could well be read like that and make someone feel bad for characteristics they can't control. 

I do know the exact sort of personality you mean and very much agree they're a blight on the community as a whole, but I think it would be better to group them based on beliefs rather than immutable traits

[RexHavoc]

21 hours ago, Enoby said:

++Mod Hat++

(This is only in relation to this part of your post, everything else is fine!)

I do get what you're saying here and, as you may already know, I am also very pro-diversity when it comes to the AoS community and models, being one of the 'politcals' myself . However, I think it would be a good idea to not make the topic more divisive by pointing the blame at the plurality of "old white guys"; I do get that you're not saying "all old white guys" and are rather referring to those who exist as the nasty underbelly to the community, but the way it's currently worded does suggest a large chunk of this subgroup are cruel people which I don't think is fair. 

It sucks to be generalised, and I can't imagine it feels great for some of the 'old white guys' who are great people to read this. I do get you're not trying to say all old white guys are evil, but it could well be read like that and make someone feel bad for characteristics they can't control. 

I do know the exact sort of personality you mean and very much agree they're a blight on the community as a whole, but I think it would be better to group them based on beliefs rather than immutable traits

I stopped using the forum as much as I once did before. I found myself getting drawn into some of the more negative conversations, as I've not been keen on how AoS has been sold in the past two years and also happy to have continued to play an earlier edition which stirs up less than pleasant opinions at times, so stepped back as I'd rather enjoy the good bits of the hobby and not add to the negativity as I was finding myself doing.

But having decided to dip back in and take a look at what people are doing with third edition and find out if I'd mellowed on it, but in just a couple of visits here I've already seen the thread where someone is advocating bullying people for being socially inept and now this gem of a thread. 🤦‍♂️




 

[Roland]

*First post*.

Checked a few pages yet didn't immediately see a reference, so apologies if already posted.

Yet I've found that if you simply search for a unit type with the word warscroll on Bing. 
You can still find the Games Workskop .pdf's on their site.

IE.

Chainrasp Hordes Warscroll :

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG_Chainrasp_Horde_Nighthaunt_2018.pdf

Wild Riders Warscroll : 

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/aos_wildriders_eng.pdf

[DOGGED]

Been following, getting into the GW hobby and out of it and into it again since 1991. There have been plenty of changes in 30 years, and those that had happened in the last six years have been for the better, Free warscrolls being one. Now it's not gone but put behind a pay restriction. Nothing new, really; rules on White Dwarf have been that same thing (paying for rules out of the rules and army books) all the way from the beginning. We have our battletomes/codexes and we still have the White Dwarf and the apps. Then as @Roland just said there are free warscrolls, and finally the Warhammer Legends ones are all still available; those are definitely a gift for the pre-AoS costumer base (I still remember that video of a guy who brunt his dark elf army).

So it's not a tragedy nor an outrageous anticostumer/antifan movement, but just a thing of a company taking a decision in regards to its products. It may be that we like it more or less or not at all, but it's true too that said company has given us the very best time of its hobby in the last six years. 

[Noserenda]

Im not sure quite how you can say its not anticonsumer to take something free and put a price on it? Thats pretty much the definition of it.

[Orbei]

15 hours ago, DOGGED said:

There have been plenty of changes in 30 years, and those that had happened in the last six years have been for the better, Free warscrolls being one. Now it's not gone but put behind a pay restriction.

Very confused by this. You say free warscrolls has been a change for the better, which I am with you on. How does monetizing them not mean that free warscrolls are gone?

How do you feel about warscroll updates? Let's say I buy a $123 leviadon. Well unfortunately it sucked until they decided to update it in Broken Realms. Should I not be allowed to use the model in game now unless I buy that book, which I otherwise don't give a hoot about? I find it to be absurd.

[yukishiro1]

It seems like by very definition putting free warscrolls behind a paywall means free warscrolls are gone...you know, the whole "free" part? 

[jjb070707]

22 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

It seems like by very definition putting free warscrolls behind a paywall means free warscrolls are gone...you know, the whole "free" part? 

Perhaps it is simply a language/translation issue. The whole post you quoted seems worded in such a way to suggest colloquial British or American English may not be the language the thought behind the post was conceived in. 

I "think" what was trying to be conveyed is that warscrolls on a database on an app are still more accessible than warscrolls printed in army books, and that if we disregard the past 6 years of accessibility this situation is still favorable to early 1990s distribution of army rules.  

Either way I strongly disagree with the sentiment that anything about this change is good for either the game or the user, and agree with you completely Yukishiro. It seems like a tenuous position to be defending that this change is for the better. 

[NinthMusketeer]

On 10/7/2021 at 12:21 PM, RexHavoc said:

I stopped using the forum as much as I once did before. I found myself getting drawn into some of the more negative conversations, as I've not been keen on how AoS has been sold in the past two years and also happy to have continued to play an earlier edition which stirs up less than pleasant opinions at times, so stepped back as I'd rather enjoy the good bits of the hobby and not add to the negativity as I was finding myself doing.

But having decided to dip back in and take a look at what people are doing with third edition and find out if I'd mellowed on it, but in just a couple of visits here I've already seen the thread where someone is advocating bullying people for being socially inept and now this gem of a thread. 🤦‍♂️




 

I really, honestly wish I could offer you some optimism here but that just wouldn't be honest. I CAN say that it's not all bad, and avoiding the social equivalent of dangerous terrain is part of life. But yeah, the community is more toxic now than it was at the dawn of 2nd.

 

At least it isn't 40k.

Edited October 25, 2021 by NinthMusketeer

[Aussiemandias]

I would say that it really does depend on your local community and that online forums can magnify negative views and opinions. Humans are just wired to focus on the negative (sadly).

With my personal anecdotal evidence: I am enjoying AoS 3.0, but I will miss the free warscrolls- it was a quick and easy way to get to grips with a unit/test a proxy without having to lug around the battletome. It is a loss, no matter which way you slice it.

My advice would be to download the ones you want (if available) or ask if any kindly souls have the warscrolls from the kits. Pretty sure GW is still printing them at the back of the instructions. Hopefully the updates make it to the instructions.

[madmac]

12 hours ago, Aussiemandias said:

My advice would be to download the ones you want (if available) or ask if any kindly souls have the warscrolls from the kits. Pretty sure GW is still printing them at the back of the instructions. Hopefully the updates make it to the instructions.

That would be a big no, GW has purposely removed the full warscrolls from kit instructions.

[RexHavoc]

1 hour ago, madmac said:

That would be a big no, GW has purposely removed the full warscrolls from kit instructions.

Well thats a terrible blow to the ease of introduction to the game or for people that are happy with older editions but might want to add newer models to their games (and don't want to write their own stats)

Either GW are so sure that this is going to encourage more people to buy battletomes (Perhaps their profit margins on tomes are huge) or they know that they make so many errors and updates with rules that they can't be bothered with people complaining that the warscroll in the boxes are wrong every time something is updated.

[yukishiro1]

Their profit margins on tomes are lower than on plastic. I think it has to be about forcing people onto the apps, it's the only way to make sense of GW's decisions over the last three years to pull back on digital distribution (not just warscrolls, but also discontinuing e-pubs). Not even GW thinks that it's a good idea in 2021 to reduce digital access to rules, it must just be in order to charge you for it through the app instead. 

[DOGGED]

On 10/23/2021 at 3:59 PM, Orbei said:

Very confused by this. You say free warscrolls has been a change for the better, which I am with you on. How does monetizing them not mean that free warscrolls are gone?

How do you feel about warscroll updates? Let's say I buy a $123 leviadon. Well unfortunately it sucked until they decided to update it in Broken Realms. Should I not be allowed to use the model in game now unless I buy that book, which I otherwise don't give a hoot about? I find it to be absurd.

First, there are free warscrolls as @Roland said, and then those from Legends too. Then, the app can offer warscrolls which are out of the army books (as can the magazine); so if warscrolls were something which appeared only in army books, their being accessible out of them could be publicized (and considered) as "free" in the sense that they would be an unusual addition to the usual contents in the app/magazine. Of course you're paying for it. But if you're paying for the app/magazine, and it gives you access to contents which are free for you as a customer who bought the app/magazine... That's my point.

About warscroll updates: Curiously I have 2 Leviadons). I could use them before Broken Realms even if they "sucked". I can use them without recurring to Broken Realms. Do I want the newer warscroll? If a new edition comes around, will I have to buy the newer army books to use my Leviadons? At the end, it depends on us wanting to use the latest (best?) versions of the warscrolls (or the game, for that matter). I don't have the intention to buy an Orruk army book other than the original Ironjawz one, for example. I don't play tournaments, if that matter, but I guess I'm not the only one.

20 hours ago, jjb070707 said:

Perhaps it is simply a language/translation issue. The whole post you quoted seems worded in such a way to suggest colloquial British or American English may not be the language the thought behind the post was conceived in. 

I "think" what was trying to be conveyed is that warscrolls on a database on an app are still more accessible than warscrolls printed in army books, and that if we disregard the past 6 years of accessibility this situation is still favorable to early 1990s distribution of army rules.  

Either way I strongly disagree with the sentiment that anything about this change is good for either the game or the user, and agree with you completely Yukishiro. It seems like a tenuous position to be defending that this change is for the better. 

That is true. Obviously the change has been made with the company benefit in mind, first and foremost. Obviously it's not directly better for the game or user to restrict access to warscrolls. Then it is obvious that benefitting the company that produces the game you play benefits the game you play and its users. It's a thing of POV, really.

I don't, ever wanted to, mean that restricting access to warscrolls is a change for the better. I don't have the app nor will I buy/subscribe to it. But I can't honestly consider (the majority of) warscrolls being now accessible for me only if I pay for the app as an antifan/anticustomer movement but just a company decision to make more money and/or promote the app. For me, what really matters is that the company keeps releasing cool models, units and lore and that the game keeps being good.

Fact is that every new player will buy the army book for the chosen army, and current players can choose to use older books or update their armies. As ever. I keep calm and enjoy.

It's business I guess.

[hot_boy_ronald]

What am I missing, don't you get the warscrolls for free from the app? I don't have to pay to see any specific unit's warscrolls, but if I wanted to run a faction's army using their faction specific enhancements/rules, then I'd have to pay. I'm ready to be wrong, but I just see it more as an inconvenience in having to get the app, rather than a direct paywall money grab to play the game at all.  

[yukishiro1]

It's in a free beta right now. GW has studiously avoided telling us what is going to remain free after the beta ends, which everyone is reasonably interpreting as "they won't be free any more." If they were going to stay free GW could just have said so and got some free cred, the fact that they haven't strongly suggests the plan is to put the scrolls behind the subscription paywall once the free period ends. 

I mean there is literally a FAQ on their own site asking what's going to stay free and what isn't going to stay free, where the answer is "we're not going to tell you that." 🤣

Edited October 25, 2021 by yukishiro1

[RexHavoc]

Its still not reasonable to lock things behind the app. This isn't a digital hobby, even if digital products can be used within the hobby.

If they lock things behind paywalls and apps, they will only encourage other means of getting rules for those that don't want to use apps.

The game already appears to be declining in popularity. The old world will further divide peoples money/attention. Putting warscrolls behind paywalls or apps only is only going to further push people to play games without these hurdles.

[Orbei]

2 hours ago, DOGGED said:

First, there are free warscrolls as @Roland said, and then those from Legends too. Then, the app can offer warscrolls which are out of the army books (as can the magazine); so if warscrolls were something which appeared only in army books, their being accessible out of them could be publicized (and considered) as "free" in the sense that they would be an unusual addition to the usual contents in the app/magazine. Of course you're paying for it. But if you're paying for the app/magazine, and it gives you access to contents which are free for you as a customer who bought the app/magazine... That's my point.

About warscroll updates: Curiously I have 2 Leviadons). I could use them before Broken Realms even if they "sucked". I can use them without recurring to Broken Realms. Do I want the newer warscroll? If a new edition comes around, will I have to buy the newer army books to use my Leviadons? At the end, it depends on us wanting to use the latest (best?) versions of the warscrolls (or the game, for that matter). I don't have the intention to buy an Orruk army book other than the original Ironjawz one, for example. I don't play tournaments, if that matter, but I guess I'm not the only one

Interesting perspective. I'd say it's a bonus for app or magazine users, but in this context of this thread the warscrolls are no longer free.

Out of curiosity, you're saying you would just use the old warscroll if you didn't buy BR Morathi? How would you feel about an opponent using outdated scrolls? Or, for that matter, how would you feel about an opponent using the newer rules without a physical copy of the source material?

Personally I want the game to have the most up to date ruleset for both armies. I also have no intention of buying white dwarf, subscribing to the app, or buying mid-release books like broken realms. It's easy enough to get access to the rules without those sources (they read the whole book on YouTube for example) so it's not as though the rules are secret. I also don't care if my opponent has the original source material for his army. 

Players will get the rules one way or another. GW moving in this direction is a poor business decision from my point of view because it forces them to go to outside sources instead of their website. Anti consumer or not (I think it is but many people here don't) it definitely places a new barrier between the players and the rules and makes things overall less convenient. I see that as negative for the health of the game. 

[Sarouan]

TBH, the true appeal of the "free" warscrolls is that the rules were actually included in the box rather than on the website (which, mind those who easily forget this, is no different than a app in terms of accessibility, since you have to be connected to the internet to have it - and no, not everyone has access to it whenever he wants, even in these days).

Currently we have a very "basic" version in the new boxes. The intent is still same ; being able to play without having the army book. And it still has the same purpose...with less details, granted.

The end purpose was always to guide new players towards their army battletome to have the "full rules" (even with the old version of warscrolls in the box : just having the unit warscroll wasn't enough and everyone knew it).

Does it make a difference that the online rules are moved to an app (paying or not) ? To me, yes, because I never use my phone to go on internet and refuse to do so. Call me old school if you want, but that's how I am : to me a phone is just that - a phone. So it's annoying to have it "locked" on an app. But then for other people, it's the other way around - and I can't forget that my tendency to read the warscrolls on GW's website from my laptop was also not convenient to other people as well.

It was never "free" to everyone, in reality. Either you bought the boxes and have the paper version, or have to go on internet. Now we still have a paper version, much less detailed indeed, and the online version is on an app - but with the full rules. There are simply more restrictions than before.

That said, saying "players will get the rules one way or another" was always true, no matter the edition. Justifications for piracy were always there. The 3.0 version doesn't change that at all, in truth. Those people advocating for piracy will certainly tell a different story, but I don't believe them. To me, even with free warscrolls around, they would still have advocated for pirating GW rules without buying them - because their main reasons were never with the level of details on warscrolls in the box / disappearance of warscrolls on GW's website from the beginning. It's just an excuse for their own deliberate choices of going that way, that's all. The real intent on this topic is for them to feel morally better by choosing that way, to me. It's a simple fallacy of the mind : in reality, they are no better at all in 3.0 than they were in 2.0 or even before...even at the beginning of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

 

As for the impact on the game...I don't think it's really that big. To me, what is having a big impact and slows the popularity of AoS are the written rules themselves (more oriented towards the competitive scene, clearly, and much less intuitive / quick to apply than previous versions), the way last battletomes show what will be 3.0 (less army special rules / choices of command traits and aptitudes out of the units) and the current chaos with GW releases that is really frustrating to a lot of players.

Basically the same mess than 40k V9 is having for quite some time.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Sarouan

[zilberfrid]

10 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

TBH, the true appeal of the "free" warscrolls is that the rules were actually included in the box rather than on the website (which, mind those who easily forget this, is no different than a app in terms of accessibility, since you have to be connected to the internet to have it - and no, not everyone has access to it whenever he wants, even in these days).

Currently we have a very "basic" version in the new boxes. The intent is still same ; being able to play without having the army book. And it still has the same purpose...with less details, granted.

The end purpose was always to guide new players towards their army battletome to have the "full rules" (even with the old version of warscrolls in the box : just having the unit warscroll wasn't enough and everyone knew it).

Does it make a difference that the online rules are moved to an app (paying or not) ? To me, yes, because I never use my phone to go on internet and refuse to do so. Call me old school if you want, but that's how I am : to me a phone is just that - a phone. So it's annoying to have it "locked" on an app. But then for other people, it's the other way around - and I can't forget that my tendency to read the warscrolls on GW's website from my laptop was also not convenient to other people as well.

It was never "free" to everyone, in reality. Either you bought the boxes and have the paper version, or have to go on internet. Now we still have a paper version, much less detailed indeed, and the online version is on an app - but with the full rules. There are simply more restrictions than before.

That said, saying "players will get the rules one way or another" was always true, no matter the edition. Justifications for piracy were always there. The 3.0 version doesn't change that at all, in truth. Those people advocating for piracy will certainly tell a different story, but I don't believe them. To me, even with free warscrolls around, they would still have advocated for pirating GW rules without buying them - because their main reasons were never with the level of details on warscrolls in the box / disappearance of warscrolls on GW's website from the beginning. It's just an excuse for their own deliberate choices of going that way, that's all. The real intent on this topic is for them to feel morally better by choosing that way, to me. It's a simple fallacy of the mind : in reality, they are no better at all in 3.0 than they were in 2.0 or even before...even at the beginning of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

For allies, warscrolls in boxes or website (which can legally be printed) are quite important.

I don't pirate, but did download warscrolls of every Stormcast I have before they went down, as I have no intent of ever buying a Stormcast book or getting the WH+ app, though I could be convinced to play an AoS game with an army I have (Cities and Kharadron).

If I wouldn't be following TGA and my Stormcast inclusion went up by the price of a Battletome, I would decline that game or put a cat on my shoulder (by lack of a parrot).

[Sarouan]

14 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

For allies, warscrolls in boxes or website (which can legally be printed) are quite important.

It's still the same problem if you don't have access to the internet or don't buy the recent kits (what about having an old box with thus obsolete rules in them ? Or buying second-handed miniatures ? Not useful as well ).

Yes, it was useful for allies, I do agree. And you are right to have downloaded everything when it was still available. That's not piracy. Piracy is having the current Stormcast Eternal book without paying for it.

 

14 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

If I wouldn't be following TGA and my Stormcast inclusion went up by the price of a Battletome, I would decline that game or put a cat on my shoulder (by lack of a parrot).

I think people in your case would simply not play with allies if they really don't want to buy an additionnal book. Most really willing to play allies will more likely buy the book, especially if they play on the competitive scene and that the list with allies is really performing good there.

Not even talking about allies being actually a thing in most of the played games (the last limitations with 3.0 FAQ don't help).

Depends of many factors, here. It's not just "no more warscrolls on GW's website ! I don't play allies anymore !". After all, if we're at that point...we're already invested a lot of money in GW products. We're not burning our army with a video on youtube in a burst of rage...for the majority of us.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Sarouan

[zilberfrid]

16 minutes ago, Sarouan said:

It's still the same problem if you don't have access to the internet or don't buy the recent kits (what about having an old box with thus obsolete rules in them ? Or buying second-handed miniatures ? Not useful as well ).

Yes, it was useful for allies, I do agree. And you are right to have downloaded everything when it was still available. That's not piracy. Piracy is having the current Stormcast Eternal book without paying for it.

 

I think people in your case would simply not play with allies if they really don't want to buy an additionnal book. Most really willing to play allies will more likely buy the book, especially if they play on the competitive scene and that the list with allies is really performing good there.

Not even talking about allies being actually a thing in most of the played games (the last limitations with 3.0 FAQ don't help).

Depends of many factors, here. It's not just "no more warscrolls on GW's website ! I don't play allies anymore !". After all, if we're at that point...we're already invested a lot of money in GW products. We're not burning our army with a video on youtube in a burst of rage...for the majority of us.

In Cities, allies (or at least units from another faction) are really important and to be considered a faction feature (I said allies, but that's not really the case for Cities or Thryng), and I don't have a Navigator so would either need to use Nar or an ally to unbind.

Plus, if they are making stuff I purchased useless, I'll play a different game, I'm not married to AoS.

[Joseph Mackay]

In regards to all those advocating piracy and obtaining rules by means other than paying for them:

YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO THE RULES UNLESS YOU PAY FOR THEM. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT OR ENTITLEMENTS TO PLAY A GAME IF YOU HAVEN’T PAID FOR THE RULES.

I don’t agree with some of the GW business decisions or prices, but as someone who also makes content where copyright, theft and/or piracy is a potential issue, well yeah i hate piracy more than I hate the prices.

removing free warscrolls, and digital books, is short sighted and bad for the growth of the game. It speaks more of old, out of touch with the world, dinosaurs, running a company. Removing digital books and going exclusively with apps, just like video games, every time a company tries to protect its content via DRM methods, they’re only harming legitimate customers and effectively being anti-consumer

Edited October 26, 2021 by Joseph Mackay

[stato]

5 hours ago, Sarouan said:

It's still the same problem if you don't have access to the internet or don't buy the recent kits (what about having an old box with thus obsolete rules in them ? Or buying second-handed miniatures ? Not useful as well ).

I think people forget that ^ is part of the problem GW were dealing with. People buying models s/h or digging out old stuff. People would like free access to some rules without any (current) contribution to the provision.  Perhaps it might lead them to spending money, but clearly for GW that was hard to quantify vs providing via a controlled app.  There are many good reasons to support free rules, and they have been discussed at length. But at the end of the day providing that free content takes time to set up, maintain, host online, update with FAQ, provide different language versions (and dont get them mixed up, they have in the past), respond to email questions about it etc.

Edited October 26, 2021 by stato