chronomatic cogs, do i miss anything or are they super op?

[SchleuderMann2]

Chronomatic cogs give every wizard within 6" another spell. Do i miss anything or is this super overpowered?

[spenson]

They are super OP and they're especially powerful in Lumineth and Tzeentch. It's even worse when you consider that they're cheaper than most endless spells.

Edited August 29, 2021 by spenson

[SchleuderMann2]

well, i didnt complain about aos 3 yet but whoever thought this would be only near to "balanced" should overthink a lot

[yukishiro1]

Yes, it's well-known they're overtuned. Expect GW to do something about it in December-January, maybe, unless they decide there's "not enough data." 

[Yondaime]

16 hours ago, SchleuderMann2 said:

Chronomatic cogs give every wizard within 6" another spell. Do i miss anything or is this super overpowered?

dont they give just +1 to cast now?

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Yondaime said:

dont they give just +1 to cast now?

They do, but for every friendly wizard within it’s range.

It may not be very powerful with armies like skaven or so, that already only have like 1-2powerful spells, but combined with tzeentch or Lumineth who literally don’t mind casting spells as much as possible, that combination could really just start to add up.

tzeentch’s summoning pool would at that point frankly just explode 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[Boar]

3 hours ago, Yondaime said:

dont they give just +1 to cast now?

Additional spell cast, not bonus to cast rolls

 

[Landohammer]

Yes they are probably the most powerful endless spell in the game ATM. I find myself eyeing them even in lists where I only have two wizards. Because they can effectively double your magic phase. My armies pays around 100pts for a single caster but 275-360pts for a double caster. So getting multiple potential double casts for 45pts is a no-brainer. 

I think they only reason we don't see Cogs in every single Tzeentch and LRL army is because those guys pretty much always take Spellportal (and the Tzeentch Tome of eyes), and may struggle to find the points for additional endless spells. 

[Skreech Verminking]

36 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Yes they are probably the most powerful endless spell in the game ATM

I guess that dpends what army your playing.

for example another very obnoxious spell would be shackles, combined with warp gale and dreaded warpgale, some units in an not skaven army will be unable to charge at all.

So for example, somebody playing a morathi-khaine list with snakes, would basically loose instantly, if his snakes took the path of the dead-things, since morathi won’t be able to make a charge at all.

any of those guys who submits too much into a single combat deathstar, would get instantly punished by this combination 

[Landohammer]

Oh yea, shackles can be brutal for sure. But its limited range and relatively high casting cost can make it tricky to execute safely. Its also a fairly high points cost. The biggest downside to shackles is that you are allowed to attempt to dispel endless spells in each hero phase, and any hero can attempt it with a heroic action. So you will almost always have 2 shots to stop it, and in the event of a double turn you could get 3 shots.

Cogs can be casted on the board edge and provides immediate benefit, with little to no skill or risk required. 

Shackles still might outperform Cogs in specific situations, but Cogs is probably better overall.

[Skreech Verminking]

10 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Oh yea, shackles can be brutal for sure. But its limited range and relatively high casting cost can make it tricky to execute safely. Its also a fairly high points cost. The biggest downside to shackles is that you are allowed to attempt to dispel endless spells in each hero phase, and any hero can attempt it with a heroic action. So you will almost always have 2 shots to stop it, and in the event of a double turn you could get 3 shots.

Cogs can be casted on the board edge and provides immediate benefit, with little to no skill or risk required. 

Shackles still might outperform Cogs in specific situations, but Cogs is probably better overall.

Not with skaven.

skaven hust have a smal amount of spell they are interested in attempting to cast.

although considering that I could play an army with 6warlock bombardiers, that could cast overcharged warplightning each, would definitely be a lot of fun

[yukishiro1]

You can always make two attempts to dispel shackles, and the second is always at the base casting value, so unless someone has zero priests or wizards on the table it's very difficult to make it actually impact your opponent. 

Cogs is just overtuned period, all the time. It's hard to understand how they could have thought it was a good idea. 

[Skreech Verminking]

8 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

You can always make two attempts to dispel shackles, and the second is always at the base casting value, so unless someone has zero priests or wizards on the table it's very difficult to make it actually impact your opponent. 

Cogs is just overtuned period, all the time. It's hard to understand how they could have thought it was a good idea. 

No idea, they probably forgot about the existence of Tzeentch and lumineth

[ChaosUndivided]

To be fair shackles needs an unbind roll of 8, not like its that ez. Also if its the opponents hero phase that wizard or priest losses a spell casting or prayer which can force a hard decision on your opponent. 

Tzeentch summoning in conjunction with cogs is problematic but not game breaking. Their opponent needs to unbind it. I dont really agree that you can just cast it more than 30 inches away from enemy wizards and still have your own wizards make full use of it.

I think its just point costs is too low especially how enhancements now work and wizards potentially gaining a list of useful and various spells which leads to faction inequity where some just dont have enuff good spells to justify cogs use while others can greatly benefit. 

[Charleston]

16 minutes ago, ChaosUndivided said:

Tzeentch summoning in conjunction with cogs is problematic but not game breaking. Their opponent needs to unbind it. I dont really agree that you can just cast it more than 30 inches away from enemy wizards and still have your own wizards make full use of it.

To be fair, Tzeentch can fatedice the cast

[ChaosUndivided]

Ok so spend 2 of their fate dice... Its still not free and there gonna need 2 of the higher dice in their pool.

[NinthMusketeer]

If you cast cogs and the opponent unbinds it, they would have unbound whatever other spell one would have attempted. Either way that spell isn't doing anything. The difference is the opponent NEEDS to unbind cogs because one simply cannot survive Tzeentch getting that spell off. Even if it never successfully casts just by taking choice away from the opponent there is tactical value.

But let's be honest; this is Tzeentch. They are going to get it off. If unbinds are really a concern have blue scribes cast it on a d6 roll of 2+.

[greg19190]

I played against a tzeetch list with this and it is op with them as the blue scribe has a re role to all spells spell bubble and if not  like ninthmusketeer said a 2+, that and a warp chicken can turn the lowest die to the highest... You carnt get in 30 of them to dispell it and it is mostly used on turn one and they dispell it at the end due to something they have as well... So even if you do it comes back for the reasons stated above... Question though... If YOU cast it and it gets dispelled can the other player cast there cogs in that turn since it was dispelled in that turn (and you carnt cast it again that turn)? 

[Lord Krungharr]

Sounds like Cogs would be good to have in my three wizard Bloodgullet Ogors army too. But I used my spell as the gearworks for my mechanical megagargant. Gotta get another one  

[LuminethMage]

Is it fair to call something super OP, because it's great for one faction, and good for a few others? Most of the successful tournament LRL lists don't even have Cogs. I use Cogs all the time, it's great for my lists, but I don't play anything close to a competitive tournament list. 

I expect it to go up on points because it seems to be too good for how cheap it is, but besides Tzeentch, is this thing such a big deal? It's relatively easy to get rid of and can't move. 

[NinthMusketeer]

37 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

Is it fair to call something super OP, because it's great for one faction, and good for a few others? Most of the successful tournament LRL lists don't even have Cogs. I use Cogs all the time, it's great for my lists, but I don't play anything close to a competitive tournament list. 

I expect it to go up on points because it seems to be too good for how cheap it is, but besides Tzeentch, is this thing such a big deal? It's relatively easy to get rid of and can't move. 

Why yes, because most tournament winning lists of a single army do not use it it must not be that bad! /s C'mon, at least show some respect for the people discussing this.

And to answer your question: YES. It is completely broken. It could be seen in 0.00% of winning tournament lists and STILL be broken because the topic is not exclusively restricted to competitive play. Easy to get rid of? A smart player will be getting rid of it themselves so that it cannot be unbound at the start of their subsequent hero phase and thus block them from casting it. Being easy to get rid of actually makes it stronger. There is no downside to attempting to cast it because a failure to cast Cogs would almost certainly have failed to cast anything else while a success means immediately getting that spell back, plus another for each wizard within (not wholly within) 6". There is nothing in AoS that comes even remotely close to offering the same level of battlefield effectiveness for 45 points.

[Liquidsteel]

Cogs has been "comped" in a very high profile tournament here in the UK, run by the Facehammer guys, one of whom is a playtester.

They have attempted to address some of the biggest offenders, for example Gotrek can't be healed, Lumineth Foxes can't move in the opponent's shooting phase, etc

[LuminethMage]

16 hours ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Why yes, because most tournament winning lists of a single army do not use it it must not be that bad! /s C'mon, at least show some respect for the people discussing this.

And to answer your question: YES. It is completely broken. It could be seen in 0.00% of winning tournament lists and STILL be broken because the topic is not exclusively restricted to competitive play. Easy to get rid of? A smart player will be getting rid of it themselves so that it cannot be unbound at the start of their subsequent hero phase and thus block them from casting it. Being easy to get rid of actually makes it stronger. There is no downside to attempting to cast it because a failure to cast Cogs would almost certainly have failed to cast anything else while a success means immediately getting that spell back, plus another for each wizard within (not wholly within) 6". There is nothing in AoS that comes even remotely close to offering the same level of battlefield effectiveness for 45 points.

I didn't mean to be disrespectful. It's just you have all these complains here on the forum about this and that, and it's often a bit hyperbolic, and also often turns out to not be wholly true in the end. I also didn't say only wining tournament lists count for what is OP. That whole argument feels more like a straw man, personal attack from your side.

It's just that we have no useful data about anything besides tournaments. So I can't say something like "it's not even used in most successful local lists", because I don't have any idea how common Cogs are taken worldwide on a club/fun level. I only have tournament data as a reference, that's the reason why I use it.  

Cogs are good, especially for some armies like LRL. No doubt about that. But, as I mentioned, I play often with them, and it's mostly a T1 thing, you get a lot of gas out of that, and frankly it's also fun to do all those spells, besides how useful it is in the end (often there is a limit anyway on what you can do in T1, but it's still fun for an army like LRL). 

As soon as you have to move, the value of Cogs lessens. The range is pretty short, small Wizards tend to get taken out etc. Yes, you can dispel them by yourself, and risk not getting them cast again where you need them. There is a trade-off, if you can't get it cast, you can't cast something else instead. Saying there is no downside because otherwise you

Especially if you are not talking about tournament lists, I don't see anyone being then super good about planing all their movements, spells etc., to maximize the use of Cogs (not forgetting to dispel them in the previous turn), and it therefore being super OP all the time. 

I also think 45 points is too low for what it does, but I still think it's not that big of deal in most armies and lists. Lifeswarm is only a bit more expensive and in my view at least as powerful as Cogs, but there isn't a big uproar about that, likely because it's useful for more armies, so more people can use it. Whereas Cogs does more for only a few armies, and I think some of the OP talk stems from that, because people think it's unfair that others get that kind of thing. Which could be valid, but is different from being super OP.  

And I think your last sentence is wrong for many armies. That's why you do not see Cogs that much in tournaments. If it was true that nothing in AoS comes even remotely close in therms of battlefield effectiveness for 45 points, you would see Cogs in almost every winning tournament lists. Statements like that are exactly what I mean. You probably could say that for Tzeentch and a few other lists, but that doesn't mean it's generally super OP. 

[AaronWilson]

Cogs are certainly very very under costed for what they do and went under the radar, alongside Gotrek & Morathi in the FAQ. 

[KrispyXIV]

I certainly personally can't wait for them to be nerfed, and eternally shelved like the rest of my generic endless spells.

...oh wait, that's not true at all.  Most of them are hideously overcosted for their impact on the game, and entirely too easy to counter or remove from play if they DO manage to wind up on the table. 

Cogs may be slightly OP in general and problematic in a couple armies, but seriously - the proper response isn't a major nerf that removes the spell from all tables everywhere.  

Well be right back to only Spell Portals ever seeing play, and only then in niche lists with OP spells bound only by their tragically comic ranges. 

Endless Spells need to be capital G Good if they're going to be worth taking. 

Even Shackles isn't showing up in all lists everywhere as some had predicted - and everyone thought it was gonna be OP as hell. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by KrispyXIV