JackStreicher Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 11 hours ago, ArkanautDadmiral said: While you’re saying GW doesn’t take responsibility for their actions it also feels a bit like you’re excusing members from their own actions because of their anger. I disagree. He is giving the reason why people are angry, not excusing it. He explains the issue on the highest level while you and the others are talking about the issue way further down the latter. (His argument is at 1. the rest seems to be at 4.). He explains the reason while you try to argue about the consequences, and how unjustifiable they are. 1. Why are people angry at GW? (Y/n) . . . 4. Should people truly vent their anger on the forums? about 4. No, yet where else could they? A lot of people don’t habe any chance to vent their anger anywhere really. Simply keeping the anger in yourself is the best way to get sick. At some point one will look for others feeling the same. Then here come the white knights which are actually the trigger for more anger. Imo it’s be best if we had a threat in the dark corners of the forum where people could vent 😅 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArkanautDadmiral Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 hour ago, JackStreicher said: I disagree. He is giving the reason why people are angry, not excusing it. He explains the issue on the highest level while you and the others are talking about the issue way further down the latter. (His argument is at 1. the rest seems to be at 4.). He explains the reason while you try to argue about the consequences, and how unjustifiable they are. 1. Why are people angry at GW? (Y/n) . . . 4. Should people truly vent their anger on the forums? about 4. No, yet where else could they? A lot of people don’t habe any chance to vent their anger anywhere really. Simply keeping the anger in yourself is the best way to get sick. At some point one will look for others feeling the same. Then here come the white knights which are actually the trigger for more anger. Imo it’s be best if we had a threat in the dark corners of the forum where people could vent 😅 I think you’re misreading or misunderstanding me. The cause is obviously GW, But we’re also referring to it as the problem. I don’t deny GW are making some people angry, I’m pointing out that it’s not a problem for everybody, and that if someone chooses to debate that point on a public forum they’re called a white knight, which you’ve also just proven, which was helpful. But none of that relates to the point of excusing behaviour. It’s not GWs fault you’ve made the white knight comment, it’s yours, that was your action. You can’t pass the blame of your actions onto the source of your anger. My football team, Liverpool, look to not be investing much in the transfer window this season, which I’m a bit unhappy about. If I start lashing out at other fans, is my behaviour excused because Liverpool have made me angry? Especially when some people disagree with my opinion that Liverpool need to invest more? Or would in fact my actions taken in anger be my responsibility regardless of why I’m angry? Sure people can vent their anger on the forums, they should just do it without attacking other community members and keep it in relevant threads. Though seriously for anyone who has anger issues (as I have) I highly recommend taking a step away from the computer even if it’s for 10 minutes and getting some exercise instead. By all means come back to the keyboard afterwards, but looking to vent your frustration in an environment that’s likely to frustrate you more is just as unhealthy as locking that frustration in. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Person A: "GW have screwed me over yet again. God, it makes me so mad!" Person B: "Well, it doesn't bother me. Therefore, it shouldn't bother you either. Your feelings are incorrect." Person A: "What the... **** you!" Basically all I've been saying here is that I can understand and even relate to Person A. I don't condone them being rude to Person B, but I get it, you know? From their perspective, Person B was rude to them first. What I don't understand is why Person B felt the need to get involved in the conversation at all, what they were hoping to achieve, and why they were surprised when it blew up in their face. If someone can give me a better grasp on that perspective, I'd genuinely appreciate it. It's like when people show up to a protest to espouse the opposing view, and are then shocked when they end up getting punched in the face. Like... what did you think was going to happen in that situation? Everyone was just going to go "Oh, he makes some reasonable points. Welp, pack it up everyone, it turns out our problems aren't real after all!" 4 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 21 hours ago, Kadeton said: I don't think it's particularly necessary to build an "argument" when all you want to do is express that you're angry about something. That's an odd requirement: "This makes me so mad!" "Oh yeah? Justify that emotion in detail, please." I'm not saying you do - but I've yet to meet anyone who can acurately convey what they're angry about whilst they're still angry. 21 hours ago, Kadeton said: I totally agree that this should be the preferred method. The fact that people come to complain on TGA and other sites instead indicates that the proper channels aren't working effectively - people who use them don't feel heard (lack of acknowledgement or lack of commitment) and they lose trust in the process. That's when they seek out others who feel the same way to amplify the message and make themselves heard. I think a lot of people don't realise there is a complaints mechanism and many people would rather rant on social media for that endorphin kick when somebody clicks "like". Sorry to be mean about it, I think social media is a really powerful tool at times, but people turn to it far too quickly (I'll now get off my soap box 😉) 7 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said: Just to call this out as this is a misconception. To my knowledge non of the mods are friends with GW employees (I’m assuming you mean studio staff by the way) apart from Ben (who owns this forum). Also I’ve played games in events against studio staff as well as had a drink with them but I don’t think this means I’m on their list of people who would help them move house. 😉 Just to reinforce this, within the AoS studio, I know two of the team well enough to have a conversation with, having gamed with them and chatted at open days. Would more than happily have a drink with them any day of the week, but I've not got their mobile number on my phone or have them as a friend on Facebook because I don't know them well enough. Holding my hands up, I'm fortunate in that I've played a game on GW's Twitch channel and was given some models to paint up for WD (this was for winning a prize in a painting competition and was offered to all winners). This hasn't given me a direct line into GW (nor should it), but did highlight that the GW staff I encountered are as passionate about the hobby as the rest of us. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArkanautDadmiral Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 4 minutes ago, Kadeton said: Person A: "GW have screwed me over yet again. God, it makes me so mad!" Person B: "Well, it doesn't bother me. Therefore, it shouldn't bother you either. Your feelings are incorrect." Person A: "What the... **** you!" Basically all I've been saying here is that I can understand and even relate to Person A. I don't condone them being rude to Person B, but I get it, you know? From their perspective, Person B was rude to them first. What I don't understand is why Person B felt the need to get involved in the conversation at all, what they were hoping to achieve, and why they were surprised when it blew up in their face. If someone can give me a better grasp on that perspective, I'd genuinely appreciate it. It's like when people show up to a protest to espouse the opposing view, and are then shocked when they end up getting punched in the face. Like... what did you think was going to happen in that situation? Everyone was just going to go "Oh, he makes some reasonable points. Welp, pack it up everyone, it turns out our problems aren't real after all!" I agree person B was rude first in that instance, unfortunately that’s not how it always happens on here. As to why B felt the need to get involved? Because person A posted their point of view on a discussion forum so B posted theirs. What you’re arguing could equally be said for person A, what were they expecting? What were they hoping to achieve? Maybe a neutral venue wasn’t the best place to vent their frustration? Again same goes for your other point when people show up and start protesting in people’s faces who didn’t ask for it, and themselves get punched in the face. the point is, no one should be getting punched in the face. The means of how the punch came about doesn’t matter. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) 55 minutes ago, ArkanautDadmiral said: But none of that relates to the point of excusing behaviour. It’s not GWs fault you’ve made the white knight comment, it’s yours, that was your action. You can’t pass the blame of your actions onto the source of your anger. I used the white Knight intentionally The argument is partially true. I can actively make a decision to neither mention the WK not to vent. However it all goes back to GW, as the source of both, so they‘re also to blame. It‘s like the pharmacy handing out highly addictive painkillers. Well it‘s not their fault people take it or that people don’t decide to stop taking the drug. (A very hyperbolic example) Imagine you sell a lackluster product in your neighborhood, people could buy somewhere else, yet it‘s not profitable at all (for some reason). So you are basically a monopoly. Now people point out the mistake, you ignore it and claim it’s The best product ever. This boils up until they demonstrate in front of your house since there is no other way to express their anger. Sure they could have decided to not demonstrate. That‘s on them, but what is the alternative? It will boil up at some point and the only true place to vent is a hobby club (most people don’t have one) or on the web. And you put your hands up: It‘s not my fault that you are angry folks, go home you bad people. A lot of the issues we‘re facing in the hobby is due to GW acting like it was 1980, deceiving (editing of posts) and acting like everything is awesome, smiling away issues. Edited August 31, 2021 by JackStreicher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 11 minutes ago, RuneBrush said: I'm not saying you do - but I've yet to meet anyone who can acurately convey what they're angry about whilst they're still angry. I think that's almost as strange a requirement, to be honest. "This makes me so mad!" "Oh yeah? Please give me a complete list of the reasons why you're mad, so that I can critique it for you." 3 minutes ago, ArkanautDadmiral said: As to why B felt the need to get involved? Because person A posted their point of view on a discussion forum so B posted theirs. Okay, fair enough - thanks. I suspect that's where I'm struggling to relate - I would generally prefer to avoid an unnecessary fight with someone who's clearly worked up, even if it means keeping my thoughts to myself. 3 minutes ago, ArkanautDadmiral said: What you’re arguing could equally be said for person A, what were they expecting? What were they hoping to achieve? Maybe a neutral venue wasn’t the best place to vent their frustration? I think that's actually a pretty big and important point of difference between some of the perspectives here, actually! To some people, this forum is a "neutral venue" where strangers can discuss subjects of common interest within a strict framework of politeness. To others, this forum is a community space where they hang out with their friends. To the second group, it's like when one of your mates has a bad day and you take them out to the pub and let them rant it out until they feel better. To the first group, it's like when a crazy person comes up and shouts at you in the street for no reason. Ah, the ambiguities of internet spaces. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArkanautDadmiral Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Kadeton said: I think that's almost as strange a requirement, to be honest. "This makes me so mad!" "Oh yeah? Please give me a complete list of the reasons why you're mad, so that I can critique it for you." Okay, fair enough - thanks. I suspect that's where I'm struggling to relate - I would generally prefer to avoid an unnecessary fight with someone who's clearly worked up, even if it means keeping my thoughts to myself. I think that's actually a pretty big and important point of difference between some of the perspectives here, actually! To some people, this forum is a "neutral venue" where strangers can discuss subjects of common interest within a strict framework of politeness. To others, this forum is a community space where they hang out with their friends. To the second group, it's like when one of your mates has a bad day and you take them out to the pub and let them rant it out until they feel better. To the first group, it's like when a crazy person comes up and shouts at you in the street for no reason. Ah, the ambiguities of internet spaces. I know what you’re saying, honestly. Ironically I’m much better at managing my anger on the internet which is far and wide a more intolerant and frustrating place. If I get called something on here I can deal with it. If I got called something on the street I’d be far less likely to respond in the same way I do as on here. While the internet makes it very easy to say what you want to who you want it also gives you the really easy opportunity to remove yourself from the situation, a chance you might not get down the pub. Edited August 31, 2021 by ArkanautDadmiral 2 quotes accidentally 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Well I have been pretty unhappy with a lot of gw decisions like the digital books, the app and the latest faq but I just signed up for a year. I was very surprised by the pricing here in Japan. Gw stuff is usually unbelievably expensive but this isnt. It's ¥7000 for a year. The voucher here is worth ¥1900. In Japan a megaboss is ¥5800. So by signing up for a year I've kind of made my money back already. The problem with all the anger is that nuance gets lost. The Warhammer TV app includes a bunch of the free videos of YouTube which is nice but it doesn't include subtitles even in English which is not so good. I haven't seen anyone talking about the actual features of the service in any detail despite two threads about it. It's disappointing that the Warhammer vault isn't part of the app. There also isn't a way to save more than one book for offline viewing. I'm very nervous about the AoS app. In the recent financial report they talked about reconsidering their approach to digital products. I hope they rethink their approach, and that the vault is part of this. If I know that the digital lore of the new battletomes will come out in the vault in a year or two, I don't mind waiting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArkanautDadmiral Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 27 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: I used the white Knight intentionally The argument is partially true. I can actively make a decision to neither mention the WK not to vent. However it all goes back to GW, as the source of both, so they‘re also to blame. It‘s like the pharmacy handing out highly addictive painkillers. Well it‘s not their fault people take it or that people don’t decide to stop taking the drug. (A very hyperbolic example) Imagine you sell a lackluster product in your neighborhood, people could buy somewhere else, yet it‘s not profitable at all (for some reason). So you are basically a monopoly. Now people point out the mistake, you ignore it and claim it’s The best product ever. This boils up until they demonstrate in front of your house since there is no other way to express their anger. Sure they could have decided to not demonstrate. That‘s on them, but what is the alternative? It will boil up at some point and the only true place to vent is a hobby club (most people don’t have one) or on the web. And you put your hands up: It‘s not my fault that you are angry folks, go home you bad people. Honestly I’ve struggled to follow your examples there but no ones telling anyone to go home, all their asking is you not insult them or make accusations about their character because they disagree or simply don’t feel as strongly as you do. How would your hobby club feel if you came down to vent and started calling people who disagree with you names? You think they’d say ‘it’s ok, he’s just mad at GW’ or would they say, ‘please don’t do that we want these people to keep coming to game nights!’. You’ve made the white knight comment intentionally, does that now make it ok for me to make accusations about your character and call you what I want? It would be GWs fault ultimately remember, because they’re the source, so please try to remember that as I’m personally attacking you. Obviously I’m not going to do any of that because I know it will reflect more on me rather than on GWs actions. I’m going to exercise my ability to remove myself from the discussion now because it’s obviously working me up now too! 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoby Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 While I think it's important to voice criticism (which I've done a lot myself) and it's totally understandable to get angry/disappointed sometimes, it's really important to be careful about venting continuously. Venting feels good and often gets 'likes' because big angry statements are popular online (so long as they're not absolutely frothing); this can create a positive feedback loop within the community where more people vent and the discussion is moves towards "why this sucks and I don't like it". This isn't the case on this forum, thankfully, but it could potentially be the fate of any large online community. To give a real life example, the World of Warcraft online community is a terrible place to discuss the game. There are certainly some very good reasons to dislike Blizzard, but even before the lawsuit the community has pretty much always been of the opinion "WoW sucks and is dying". You go on the Reddit or the WoW forum and pretty much every single post is negative, and people are lambasted for saying they like the game. Streamers profit off outrage and their communities cause the negativity to spiral to the point where criticisms are massively hyperbolic and any valuable discussion of the game is lost. These forums stopped being a place to dicuss the game, and turned into a place to vent without any purpose besides catharsis, despite many having stopped playing the game 12 years ago. This is not the case in the AoS community, but it could become that if we're not careful. I don't think there's been much (if anything) quite as poor as the normal WoW community discourse, but I think it's always important to have a point to an angry posts. Bringing awareness to an issue is useful, calling for change in a respectful way is important, polite back and forth discussion on a controversial (for AoS) topic is great. But we have to make sure venting and criticism doesn't become "GW is awful and should fail and the rules writers are stupid". I'd recommend taking a deep breath before posting and wondering why you want to post; if it's just being angry for the sake of catharsis, it might be worth not as there's a good chance it'll do no good in the long run. Even from the most machevelian perspective, being rude and angry with game criticism often doesn't result in anything useful, and sometimes causes issues. Usually, in the example of Cursed City, they ignore it. Worst case scenario it turns the developers against the community because the discourse is calling them incompetent and they stop listening to anyone at all. Even if positive discussion isn't heard, overwhelmingly negative discussion is more likely to antagonise. Again, this is not saying criticism is bad, but rather aimless anger is unhealthy for a community at large and often only hurts a goal. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnkdth Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) 18 hours ago, ian0delond said: Like I get the content is lacking and the interface is sort of mediocre. But to the point of being angry and calling for a boycott? It just looks a little silly and performative. You can just be "meh" about the service and move away. There has been a series of actions done by GW which has caused ripples and waves of anger throughout the community. Each new thing is simply one more straw that breaks more and more camel's backs. For me, its lacklustre release and perceived value reinforce certain concerns I'm already having with how GW does things. Ongoing quality issues with FAQs for FAQs for the new FAQ and, to me, it seems whoever is in charge is cutting the maximum of corners to get the biggest bonus or payoff. Which is really bad for staff (who also act as convenient messengers to shoot when things go wrong) and customer. Negative emotions should be expressed and heard. Like with Hedonites there has been A LOT of anger and feeling like they got duped. Now I could have reacted by calling them stupid for not loving the new battletome or, and this is the important part, I could acknowledge the changes had an impact yet also offer something positive in return. For example, "X mechanic is no longer the same but look at Y mechanic which allows you to do K better." I bring this up because I got told off by certain people that what I was doing was toxic positivity. I could have called them silly and told them to move on, sure, but I'm pretty sure many of them had an army of mostly daemons which are now mostly used for summoning. That's a large chunk of models (maybe the entire army) they can't really use in a meaningful way. Meanwhile, from my perspective, it is all new and fresh. Obviously, I'm going to have much different reaction to someone who's invest tons of hours and money into an army. TL;DR: if you want people to be more chill and levelheaded don't belittle them or their views because you're not invested. That only adds more fuel to the fire. Because if you add more negative energy back into a discussion, that's the energy which is going to be reciprocated. Once that ball gets rolling things can quickly turn sour. Edited August 31, 2021 by pnkdth 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 5 hours ago, Kadeton said: I think that's almost as strange a requirement, to be honest. "This makes me so mad!" "Oh yeah? Please give me a complete list of the reasons why you're mad, so that I can critique it for you." My experience is that "This makes me so mad!" tends to be followed by some arbitrary angry dig about GW being unable to write writes or only doing something for money, or how somebody else's opinion isn't right. If that person steps back and calms down a bit, they'll generally be able to form a significantly more reasonable point without that barbed dig at the end. It's not about justifying why you're angry (which is normally subjective e.g. I don't enjoy that) but explaining what caused that anger (e.g. I don't understand why this has changed). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, ArkanautDadmiral said: You’ve made the white knight comment intentionally, does that now make it ok for me to make accusations about your character and call you what I want? It would be GWs fault ultimately remember, because they’re the source, so please try to remember that as I’m personally attacking you. Imo you are taking the whole white knighting a bit too much to heart. It describes a behavior on an online Plattform, not your character. Venting doesn’t mean you call anybody names, that’s just bad behavior. It‘s the „negative attitude“ that‘s being struck down (rather harshly and rudely) by white knights of the holy GW. Also if you call somebody a white Knight it‘s not name calling but calling out a certain behavior. To simplify my examples concerning who is to blame: If one causes a big issue and makes people go angry the person causing the issue should change (GW), not necessarily the people getting angry. Although the angry people can decide how to vent, the venting will happen at some point if the entity causing the anger to rise won‘t change. Telling people to „just don‘t be mad“ is the wrong perspective imo. In my experience especially players that have been in the hobby for a long time are really sore towards GW. So why is that? I‘ve been following the development of Star Citizen since 2012, yet I am not sore, I am still enjoying it. Edited August 31, 2021 by JackStreicher Spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinholt Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) So a few meta-thoughts here: I think overall the moderators of TGA do a very good job of fostering constructive criticism without tilting into vitriol. I think the community here should appreciate how special that is, and how hard that is to do, and we should be supportive of them. Thanks to @RuneBrush for commenting to that end here. It's a mature approach to a difficult issue. I think calling for a boycott is fine, in the end. For the people who say GW is not responsive, as someone who has worked at big companies and small companies, I would tell you these tend to be the best ways to reach them: Social media on a wedge issue or critical customer service issue ("you sent me a box with a scorpion in it!") - however generic business strategy complains do not and will not register here With your wallet on business strategy and preference issues - to that end, if you don't like the conduct from a business perspective, boycotting, buying less, and saying why is literally the best thing you can do. Shove off you don't get my money is exceptionally persuasive to any for profit entity, so long as you aren't asking them to do something illegal. "The customer is always right" doesn't mean they are literally correct, but rather if they think you are wrong and won't give you money, you don't have a business Edit: 3 is via management if you are an investor - you really want to see management jump, call them when you own a ton of their stock and rip their face off about something. This isn't generally a strategy available to most people so I didn't mention it at first but will put it here for completeness sake as to what their response function is. To that end, I think the community doesn't do enough with GW on this front. If we took a harder line about "we're not buying stuff until you can at least, you know, produce an FAQ that has the rules you claim it has in the actual FAQ (Sylvaneth)" or "if you demand we have print books only in 2021 then we're only going to order your products using the barter system, so unless you want this stick of butter and this pallet of lumber, no deal" type stuff, GW would change their behavior (or go out of business and be bought by someone who would change the behavior) In general I think a constructive discussion about these things is overall improving for the hobby. After all, nobody is forced to read a thread. We can all just bounce to other worlds online if we want. But I think a thoughtful approach about how individuals interact with companies is an essential thing for life in the modern world, and we should embrace that, even when the discussion is messy (as they always are, because you are trying to stumble drunkenly towards truth like a Gargant chasing a terrified soldier to stuff in their pants). Edit edit: and by constructive, I mean people also are free to disagree (ideally respectfully). I've certainly been wrong before in life and the greatest obstacle to learning something new is thinking you already know it. Edited August 31, 2021 by Reinholt 8 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowki Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 16 hours ago, RuneBrush said: My experience is that "This makes me so mad!" tends to be followed by some arbitrary angry dig about GW being unable to write writes or only doing something for money, or how somebody else's opinion isn't right. If that person steps back and calms down a bit, they'll generally be able to form a significantly more reasonable point without that barbed dig at the end. It's not about justifying why you're angry (which is normally subjective e.g. I don't enjoy that) but explaining what caused that anger (e.g. I don't understand why this has changed). You sound like my (or should I say our) relationship therapist seriiously 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Lowki said: You sound like my (or should I say our) relationship therapist seriiously Lol, through work I've read loads of books on things like the Chimp Paradox which covers lots of subjects like this 😉 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinholt Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 6 hours ago, RuneBrush said: Lol, through work I've read loads of books on things like the Chimp Paradox which covers lots of subjects like this 😉 Looks like we've been upgraded from grots ladies and gentlemen! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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