Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

55 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Don’t buy dragons this weekend guys (unless you like the models). This from discord, same source correctly leaked a menagerie change and translocation nerf:

From sources:
Winter faq will bring:
point increase for:
- fulminators, dragons and longstrikes
- New scroll for dragons

It would be ludicrously comical if the usual suspects of the meta(sentinels, morathi + stalkers, tzeentch archaon, sons of behemat) evade nerf bat while already costly vanguard raptors get point hike. Even more hilarious if GW leaves pile of underpowered SCE warscrolls untouched.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Sagittarii Orientalis

[Wrathful]

Well it’s just rumours but raptors and fulminators already getting hit with point increase is a bit too much. Those are « old » units in a book that came out not that long ago. Besides fulminators were alfeady affected by the translocation nerf..

[lare2]

1 hour ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Don’t buy dragons this weekend guys (unless you like the models). This from discord, same source correctly leaked a menagerie change and translocation nerf:

From sources:
Winter faq will bring:
point increase for:
- fulminators, dragons and longstrikes
- New scroll for dragons

It would make me sad, I don't think any change on these is needed... but I can believe it.

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, lare2 said:

It would make me sad, I don't think any change on these is needed... but I can believe it.

in any case, changes will have to be evaluated in the context of the whole FAQ so... we'll see

[Mattrulesok]

Im not against the nerf to fullminators and raptors as long as some of the weaker units see buffs, right now a handful of warscrolls feel like they are the truly competitive pieces and it would be nice to see that balanced out  a little

[Celestantpants]

.....so dragons are getting a third nerf?  And our only truly good units (aside from grandhammer annihilators) are getting nerfed this early into the books life?  Units that are already pricey, like most things in our book?  What did they see that we had a few tourny lists that went 4-1 and decided that was too good?  WOW.

This, again, just shows how unfairly Stormcast get treated.  I challenge anyone to find examples of GW doing something like this to literally any other army this quickly or early, especially with such a lack of data to support said nerfs.  Yes, it is important to see what GW does to other armies, but if they don't get nerfed massively (and I suspect they won't) then this is a joke.  This has to be the worst battletome release I've ever seen, and honestly it seems that GW only cares what non stormcast players think.  

GW: "What's this?  Stormcast are suffering and have been a bad army for awhile now?  Dont worry Stormcast players, here is a new cool battletome." 

Non stormcast players: "What's this?  Stormcast armies are going 4-1 sometimes and might be a challenge to play?  NERF!!!!!!!"

GW: "Don't worry everyone, we will nerf the Stormcast battletome into ground within a month or two in an unprecedented move we won't replicate with your armies, and take any fun options they have and dumpster them.  Dont worry, after the winter FAQ Stormcast will go back to being terrible as we will have nerfed every single good unit they have aside from annihilators, gotta at least throw them some kind of bone right?  Don't worry too much about the annihilators though, the tourney packs have missions that will nerf them.  We got you boo!"

It honestly isn't fun being GW's whipping boy everyone, and that is exactly what has been happening.

[CommissarRotke]

5 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Don’t buy dragons this weekend guys (unless you like the models). This from discord, same source correctly leaked a menagerie change and translocation nerf:

From sources:
Winter faq will bring:
point increase for:
- fulminators, dragons and longstrikes
- New scroll for dragons

I was always going to buy them for the Cool Factor, but this is a bit weird. Any mention of scroll updates to our awful heroes??

[Celestantpants]

Honestly, I was going to buy dragons for the cool factor at least, but if they are nerfing them AGAIN, I might forgo just on principle.  Seriously, a war scroll change/nerf just a little while after they finally release IN ADDITION to the point hikes we already got on them?  **** off GW.  Pardon my language, but seriously.  If all this happens (nerfing all our good units in addition to the dragons so soon) I'm not sure how anyone can argue against GW treating Stormcast worse than other armies and catering to loud anti stormcast haters.  Because yes, they actually do care what the loudest voices say via Twitter, forums, Reddit, YouTube vids, discord etc.  And what do the loudest voices say?  You guessed it.    

Also, does anyone really think the 5-10 point drops we might possibly see on vanquishers or other terrible units will really compensate for point hikes on our units with war scrolls that are actually good?  Truly?  Because if we get any points drops at all it will likely be to the tune of that.  

I'll eat my words and happily admit I was wrong if they massively nerf the worst offenders in other armies, and make better war scrolls for our terrible units.  But honestly, those things are unlikely to happen.  

One last thing, the argument that they nerf our good units to make for better internal balance so our terrible units get played more is silly.  If they nerf all our units with good war scrolls to be terrible for the points so our terrible units can compete with them, where does that leave us?  With an army where everything is terrible in comparison to other armies.  Much like before the battletome was released, coincidentally.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Celestantpants

[NauticalSoup]

6 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Stormdrake Guard needed a nerf as much as Sentinels, Wind foxes, Megagargants, Morathi bow snakes, Archaon (again), Horrors need a nerf.

The difference is that one of these isn’t even out and on the tables yet, and the others have been playing games and oppressive for months.

One of these got nerfed at the first opportunity, and then nerfed again with immediate effect. The others lived through multiple book faqs, GHBs, GHB faqs, GHB faq-faqs, and GHB faq-faq-faqs, and get to enjoy being oppressive for a few more weeks (assuming they even get hit at all). Of these archaon got a tickle of a nerf and horrors are just as horrible as before.

Sentinels in particular have been through Lumineth 1 FAQ, Winter 2020 FAQ, Lumineth 2, Lumineth 2 FAQ, GHB21, GHB21 FAQ, FAQ-FAQ, FAQ-FAQ-FAQ, without so much as a flipping scratch, and with just as much community outrage.

Meanwhile gargants actually got better thanks to the WD update.

So yes, SCE have been treated differently. Arguably, announcing points ahead of time is for customer benefit, but it also demonstrates that GW could take action at any time to address oppressive stuff and choose not to (unless it’s SCE).

Also exhibit A remains the constant inclusion of battleplans like tooth and nail.

There's definitely some truth to this but in general it ascribes far too much deliberate maliciousness to a company that is perennially off the ball. In general GW is, when it comes to rules writing, completely inept. Most of their actions aren't well calculated so much as half-baked and is often borderline random. Their balance changes often buck any semblance of a pattern or coherent logic, and this is just another in a long, long chain of such examples going back before AoS was even a notion.

This situation is also relatively new because it's the first time in the life of AoS and 8th+ WH40K GW has put into play complete sets of rules for units that didn't have models, something they worked rigorously to avoid compared to the old days where half the units in a book didn't have an official kit on the horizon. If there were a lot more fully released rules that turned out to be broken half a year before models dropped we might find GW making balance changes to unreleased units on the regular.

The rules definitely aren't the part of the business that operates like a well oiled machine. 

Edit: Followup about the other upcoming nerfs, SCE also always have 'first book' disease, something as old as Warhammer. Space Marine/Stormcast units that actually perform get beat down because they get the most exposure even as other stuff creeps past it and leaves it irrelevant giving you a double whammy of targeted nerfs and getting naturally outclassed over time. For a recent example look what they did to Sacrosanct in 2.0, nerfing most of the range after nobody was using any of it.

Edited November 24, 2021 by NauticalSoup

[Celestantpants]

Actually Nautical, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle between what myself and others think, and what you think.  I probably attribute to much blame to GW listening to Stormcast haters, and you probably attribute too little.  Either way, it's a horrible combination of incompetence and Stormcast hater catering/panicking.   

[Doko]

These rumors are fake for sure,even a company as gw that have a history of bad balance cant be so inept as nerf sc who arent even at the top10 in their rankings and not nerf the 10+ armys that are better than sc.

Per example tye maw krusha that is a new 3.0 tome is being spamed with list bringing even 3 and winning tournaments but sc is nerfed due to 4\1 results?

Also longstrikes are even very bad in mathammer,they are only good due to double shooting of the new tome,only nerf or delete tye double shooting and dont touch or even buff raptors

[NauticalSoup]

29 minutes ago, Celestantpants said:

Actually Nautical, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle between what myself and others think, and what you think.  I probably attribute to much blame to GW listening to Stormcast haters, and you probably attribute too little.  Either way, it's a horrible combination of incompetence and Stormcast hater catering/panicking.   

Possibly. At the end of the day we can only speculate.

3 minutes ago, Doko said:

These rumors are fake for sure,even a company as gw that have a history of bad balance cant be so inept as nerf sc who arent even at the top10 in their rankings and not nerf the 10+ armys that are better than sc.

Seems par to me, Sacrosanct had been almost completely removed from the metagame in 2019 when they nerfed all their staple units.

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, Celestantpants said:

Honestly, I was going to buy dragons for the cool factor at least, but if they are nerfing them AGAIN, I might forgo just on principle. 

I'm at this point, but mainly because they increased battletome prices *again* and we've payed a premium price for what's ostensibly become an outdated tome (not to mention typos) like 3 month after release!

My choice will depend on how good pre-order discounts are compared to general release; I've noticed some LGS only offering discounts on pre-orders, and ebay retailers having a bigger % discount on pre-orders.

1 hour ago, NauticalSoup said:

There's definitely some truth to this but in general it ascribes far too much deliberate maliciousness to a company that is perennially off the ball. In general GW is, when it comes to rules writing, completely inept. Most of their actions aren't well calculated so much as half-baked and is often borderline random. Their balance changes often buck any semblance of a pattern or coherent logic, and this is just another in a long, long chain of such examples going back before AoS was even a notion.

 

100% agree with this and "first book disease" which, to some of us, is exactly why it feels like GW caves to anti-SCE sentiment. There's extremely clear precedent for Stormcast books naturally declining in power over the course of an edition. Yes the dragon warscrolls were... a LOT, especially compared to what was internally lost on other Stormcast scrolls. But if this happens in future books (and I'm sure it will), those ALSO need to get as many nerfs as SDG are getting before release.

I've been slowly getting myself to look at SW Legion so I'm not stuck being mad at GW. However even this backfired after I found out that "wow Legion rules are free, updated/tweaked regularly, AND there's a forum where devs reply within 24-48 hours??" The difference is so staggering I really hope GW starts realizing they need to make changes to how they create their rulesets, instead of relying on their market presence.

[Drofnum]

1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

I've been slowly getting myself to look at SW Legion so I'm not stuck being mad at GW. However even this backfired after I found out that "wow Legion rules are free, updated/tweaked regularly, AND there's a forum where devs reply within 24-48 hours??" The difference is so staggering I really hope GW starts realizing they need to make changes to how they create their rulesets, instead of relying on their market presence.

This is me for basically every non-GW game i've gotten interested in. So many other companies actually attempt balance and community outreach its crazy that GW is so poor in this area.

[Andrethegreat]

25 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

This is me for basically every non-GW game i've gotten interested in. So many other companies actually attempt balance and community outreach its crazy that GW is so poor in this area.

Bottom line, I don't think GW gives a dam what we think, they know we will buy the stuff they put out, So! in their mind, I guess they would look at it as why should we care what our customer base thinks, they are still making money and the shareholders are happy.    

[PrimeElectrid]

Well I for one certainly enjoyed the Facehammr video where they openly acknowledged never playtesting a game with Stormcast and yet still encouraged/supported/partially responsible for the SDG nerfs.

It must be nice to play a tabletop war game where only models which haven’t been released yet are oppressive and need nerfs, and there’s nothing problematic with anything that you can actually go and buy right now

[Nizrah]

[CommissarRotke]

29 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Well I for one certainly enjoyed the Facehammr video where they openly acknowledged never playtesting a game with Stormcast and yet still encouraged/supported/partially responsible for the SDG nerfs.

i'll probably regret asking this but... link?

[Celestantpants]

I don't even know what to say about that reveal from facehammer.  What an absolute joke.  This is literally the worst battletome release they have ever done.  Can't wait for the next tomes to release with broken stuff that stays broken for most of the edition while continuing nerfs to Stormcast occur.  After all, Stormcast don't need to be play tested, just wait to see what loud people say and then nerf accordingly.  Who needs data?  I mean, besides every other army in AOS and every army in 40k.  

I mean, if GW isn't going to play test and instead do whatever the anti stormcast mob suggests, what should be next?  Since they are going to change the dragons warscroll tge sky is the limit!  Maybe change fulminators to damage 2 on the charge with 4 attacks and rend 1 on the charge in addition to the points nerf? 

Maybe change the imperitant's deep strike ability to only work on redeemer units?

Maybe get rid of save stacking for Stormcast only because we already have good saves? 

Maybe reduce the shots longstrikes get by 1 for each model in addition to point hikes?  

How about reducing the vindictors save to a 4+ and make the shield a 6+ ward against mortal wounds from magic spells only?  

I mean, like I said, if they are just going to abdicate playtesting and do what angry haters suggest then why not those changes sooner or later?  What an absolute farce.

[JackStreicher]

Calm down everybody.

[DaCapo]

What there is a warscroll change for Stormdrake guard with the point increase ?

[Malakithe]

Pretty sure ive been saying they dont play test and only invite/listen to the influencers for a while now

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

11 minutes ago, DaCapo said:

What there is a warscroll change for Stormdrake guard with the point increase ?

Only rumoured for now. Let's calm down until it actually happens. At which point, feel free to riot.

[PrimeElectrid]

12 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

i'll probably regret asking this but... link?

Search for them on youtube, but really don’t waste your time. They have clearly not done their research, they evidently have no practical experience, and they talk up things that are irrelevant or trivial.

One might come away with the impression that this was an emergency video put out to drive sales for a webstore they own following the SDG nerf. 

[Marcvs]

13 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

i'll probably regret asking this but... link?

this is the episode I assume https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxwbcfT1fF8 but I can't tell what's the specific point to which the other posters are referring -I stopped watching when they suggested to use the Imperatant to have a 7" charge with the dragons.