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Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors


PJetski
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23 hours ago, feadair said:

A Hammers of Sigmar list with 2 Knight-Draconis and 8 Stormdrake Guards is 3-0 after Day 1 at The Renegade Open AOS GT. It comes at 1960 points, so must be using the new points. 

This list ended up 5th (4-1).

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A certain Mr Mrigank Jha came 7th (4-1) in a 100+ player tournament with this:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Mortal Realm: Aqshy
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (125)*
- Spell: Lightning Blast
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Chain Lightning

Battleline
3 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (240)**
3 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (240)**
3 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (240)**
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 1x Grandweapons

Units
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Prosecutors with Celestial Hammers (110)***
- 1x Grandhammers
3 x Aetherwings (65)***
3 x Aetherwings (65)***

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands
***Redemption Brotherhood

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000

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After this weekend’s results as well as the recent Metawatch https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/16/metawatch-orruk-warclans-and-stormcast-eternals-ride-their-new-battletomes-up-the-rankings/, it is time to SWOT the Stormcast.

Strengths: We have seen pretty good results. What impresses me the most is that a wide range of lists have done well, ranging from an all-shooting 5x Knights-Judicator list to an all-cavalry Extremis Chamber list and a lot of stuff in between. There are some units that appear frequently, such as Relictor, Fulminators and Longstrikes, but we have not converged on a single competitive tournament build. Our Battletome clearly has significant depth.

Weaknesses: We have a lot of units in our Battletome and many of them stink. No successful list has included such previous all-stars as Gavriel or Knight-Heraldor. Without warscroll changes, this is unlikely to change. Further, the November Metawatch still shows that our percentage of 4-1 or better performances is lower than our share of the meta. In other words, a lot of players bring SCEs, but as a proportion fewer of them go 4-1 or better. This might be inevitable, given that we are a starter army, and some people probably go to their first tournament with a SCE list comprised mostly of units from the starter set.

Opportunities: The Metawatch has us on a solid upward trajectory. We are the faction with the most improved 4+ win rate. This was before some of our best units had made an appearance, and this weekend has shown that both Grandhammer Annihilators and Stormdrake Guards can deliver. We can expect further improvements in performance when the new units are fully worked into lists.

Threats: We are an early codex and therefore vulnerable to power creep. Time will tell whether GW manages to keep the power level even, or whether new Battletomes will slowly get stronger and stronger. On past evidence, it is the latter. Another threat is that the Stormdrake Guards MIGHT prove oppressive even after the recent points increase and attract further attention. Time will tell. For what it is worth, the guy who went 4-1 with them said before the tournament on Goonhammer: ‘I’ve been playing 12 for the last month, and have a GT this weekend with my scratch built dragons where the new points will be used. After some practice games, even handicapping myself 600 points for one of them, the points changes are 1: Not enough, and/or 2: Isn’t the right move. I believe they need a warscroll update, not different points. They’re worse than pink horrors until that change happens.’

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1 hour ago, feadair said:

There are some units that appear frequently, such as Relictor, Fulminators and Longstrikes, but we have not converged on a single competitive tournament build. Our Battletome clearly has significant depth.

I feel that "frequently" might be a bit of an understatement. Knight-judicators spam and oups-all-dracoths are, so far, a single occurrence, whereas lists featuring 6 longstrikes (in particular) and/or 1x4 or 2x2 fulminators compose the vast majority of SCE 4-1s. I might be wrong on this, I do not claim to have the full pictures of all results everywhere in the world!

1 hour ago, feadair said:

After some practice games, even handicapping myself 600 points for one of them, the points changes are 1: Not enough, and/or 2: Isn’t the right move. I believe they need a warscroll update, not different points. They’re worse than pink horrors until that change happens.’

Before starting this discussion I would first wait for that list do better than all the SCE lists which managed a 4-1. I would also point out, and this is not to diminish the (very good!) performance of the player, that I think he lost to a Morathy&the bowsnakes list, which is a pretty standard matchup in a competitive environment.

Edited by Marcvs
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26 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

I feel that "frequently" might be a bit of an understatement. Knight-judicators spam and oups-all-dracoths are, so far, a single occurrence, whereas lists featuring 6 longstrikes (in particular) and/or 1x4 or 2x2 fulminators compose the vast majority of SCE 4-1s. I might be wrong on this, I do not claim to have the full pictures of all results everywhere in the world!

Before starting this discussion I would first wait for that list do better than all the SCE lists which managed a 4-1. I would also point out, and this is not to diminish the (very good!) performance of the player, that I think he lost to a Morathy&the bowsnakes list, which is a pretty standard matchup in a competitive environment.

There have been a number of well-performing shootcast builds, but the all-dracoths build is indeed a one-off. But absolutely, if you want to paint stuff that goes to many lists, Liberators, Vindictors, Longstrikes, Relictor and Fulminators are the way to go.

You are right, he lost to Morathi 23/22.

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11 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

The app is pretty unreliable for rules.

Arcane Tome is pretty specific about just letting you cast one extra spell if you're already a wizard. The only reason a non-wizard who takes Arcane Tome gets to pick a spell is because they are granted the WIZARD keyword, and all WIZARDS get one spell lore pick by default. Giving the tome to someone who is already a wizard means they have to either use the extra cast on arcane bolt/mystic shield/a warscroll spell, or you need to take an additional spell lore enhancement.

So to clearly answer the question: the app is wrong. Arcane Tome on a Lord Arcanum won't give it an extra spell pick.

That was my thinking exactly. Thanks a lot for confirming it.

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8 hours ago, Marcvs said:Before starting this discussion I would first wait for that list do better than all the SCE lists which managed a 4-1. I would also point out, and this is not to diminish the (very good!) performance of the player, that I think he lost to a Morathy&the bowsnakes list, which is a pretty standard matchup in a competitive environment.

Fair, though this is the guy that was the first with how oppressive LRL Wind Spirits were going to be. 

2 hours ago, lare2 said:

Do you know what beat him, by chance?

Answered already, but also worth noting the guy that beat him finished first I believe. 

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Found out the three Battleplans I'll be playing this weekend at a tournament and unfortunately for me Tooth and Nail is in there. My plan was to run three units of Grandhammers, but that battleplan is really going to hurt. Of course it will also hurt summoning armies, but I'm not sure how to navigate having to not be able to use Scions.

I could switch all three units for 4 Fulminators and another 3 Raptors, but then I kind of feel like I should just go with it and try to learn to play around it. Grandhammers are just SO slow and they won't benefit from half their warscroll.

Kinda bummed out, tbh.

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1 hour ago, Chronos said:

Found out the three Battleplans I'll be playing this weekend at a tournament and unfortunately for me Tooth and Nail is in there. My plan was to run three units of Grandhammers, but that battleplan is really going to hurt. Of course it will also hurt summoning armies, but I'm not sure how to navigate having to not be able to use Scions.

I could switch all three units for 4 Fulminators and another 3 Raptors, but then I kind of feel like I should just go with it and try to learn to play around it. Grandhammers are just SO slow and they won't benefit from half their warscroll.

Kinda bummed out, tbh.

Which round is Tooth & Nail? 

What is the rest of your list? If you have sufficient shooting you can probably force the enemy to come fight your Grandhammers.

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46 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Which round is Tooth & Nail? 

What is the rest of your list? If you have sufficient shooting you can probably force the enemy to come fight your Grandhammers.

It's the last round.

Rest of the list is K Incantor, L Relictor, Imperatant with 6 Longstrikes, 5 Vindictors, and 2x10 Skinks.

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31 minutes ago, Chronos said:

It's the last round.

Rest of the list is K Incantor, L Relictor, Imperatant with 6 Longstrikes, 5 Vindictors, and 2x10 Skinks.

T&N in the last round is rough. If it was the first round it might be okay because that is when you will likely be facing the weakest opponent you will see at the event.

I think in this case I would avoid a list that relies on Scions, like 3x3 Grandhammers

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14 minutes ago, PJetski said:

T&N in the last round is rough. If it was the first round it might be okay because that is when you will likely be facing the weakest opponent you will see at the event.

I think in this case I would avoid a list that relies on Scions, like 3x3 Grandhammers

Yeah, thanks for the perspective! Furiously building Fulminators.

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On 11/22/2021 at 7:18 AM, feadair said:

Also, these guys ended up coming 7th overall in a 70+ player tournament in the UK:

image.jpeg.bdbae0491ecd339547f76988046842a8.jpeg

More at https://twitter.com/powell106

 

after listening to the discussion about the list on the Honest Wargamer, and if someone is curious, that box contains the following list:

Yndrasta
Bastian
Celestant Prime
Relictor (General, Envoy, mirroshield)

7x5 vindictors

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Don’t buy dragons this weekend guys (unless you like the models). This from discord, same source correctly leaked a menagerie change and translocation nerf:

From sources:
Winter faq will bring:
point increase for:
- fulminators, dragons and longstrikes
- New scroll for dragons

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Stormdrake Guard needed a nerf as much as Sentinels, Wind foxes, Megagargants, Morathi bow snakes, Archaon (again), Horrors need a nerf.

The difference is that one of these isn’t even out and on the tables yet, and the others have been playing games and oppressive for months.

One of these got nerfed at the first opportunity, and then nerfed again with immediate effect. The others lived through multiple book faqs, GHBs, GHB faqs, GHB faq-faqs, and GHB faq-faq-faqs, and get to enjoy being oppressive for a few more weeks (assuming they even get hit at all). Of these archaon got a tickle of a nerf and horrors are just as horrible as before.

Sentinels in particular have been through Lumineth 1 FAQ, Winter 2020 FAQ, Lumineth 2, Lumineth 2 FAQ, GHB21, GHB21 FAQ, FAQ-FAQ, FAQ-FAQ-FAQ, without so much as a flipping scratch, and with just as much community outrage.

Meanwhile gargants actually got better thanks to the WD update.

So yes, SCE have been treated differently. Arguably, announcing points ahead of time is for customer benefit, but it also demonstrates that GW could take action at any time to address oppressive stuff and choose not to (unless it’s SCE).

Also exhibit A remains the constant inclusion of battleplans like tooth and nail.

Edited by PrimeElectrid
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