Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[Starfyre]

Doesn’t annoy me that they’ve gone up in points.

it annoys me that there’s another part of a new book that costs £30 that’s been rewritten and it’s only been out 3(?) months. Half a mind to ask for a refund

[Celestantpants]

I mean, is anybody really surprised?  This again just confirms that GW caters to the Stormcast hate crowd.  It can't be denied.  If they did this to other factions then it would be different.  But they haven't.  Other factions have been running roughshod over the game for awhile now and nothing happens.  Stormcast get a new book and their best things get nerfed before they are even out with zero tourney data to back it.  Seems very much like a knee ****** reaction to all the Stormcast hate.  Honestly it might be better to play a different faction with less haters, at least then your book will be valid for more than a month.

[boyadventurer]

TFW Cities basically gets the infinite damage negating Cycle o/t Storm, lol

[Kaptinskaggy]

I feel like we should probably hold out on declaring that the sky is falling until the overall balance pass comes out in December. The fact that they're showing a willingness to "patch" the game is promising, even if the results and messaging are muddled in that characteristic GW style we all know and love. Maybe the balance pass will make Vanquishers good or something.

[lare2]

2 hours ago, Chronos said:

I just was never comfortable with only two units of Libs or Vinds

You and me both. I played around with this list for a bit and in previous games, not having feet on the ground really hurts. I like 3 basic battleline here: 1 to protect the castle and 2 to protect a wing each and to hunt objectives. I was just never really happy with the chaff SCE could offer. Aetherwings could work in this role as well but I'm happy to pay the 10pts extra for skinks. 

2 hours ago, Chronos said:

I'm curious, do you keep you Lord Imperatant in the sky until your movement phase turn 1?

Depends who I'm up against. There's only so much you can keep up in space. The grandhammers have to go up and if someone can threaten my castle 1st turn, I'm more concerned about the Longstrike. There aren't many armies that have that kinda reach in the 1st turn though. Lumineth, definitely. 

2 hours ago, Chronos said:

I also really like having Lightning Blast and Chain Lightning to splash some mortal wounds around if you aren't going to Mystic Shield, which in this army isn't really that important I guess.

It's a great combo. Along with the Relictor's damage spell and the imperator's shooting, they're a great way to cause chip damage and to deter if anything gets too close to your castle. 

2 hours ago, Chronos said:

Last question is, the Skinks can go in the Redemption Battalion?

Nope. They can only go in the generic ones. I ran them in Warlord with all my heroes. The grandhammers went on hunters and the rest went in redemption. Having low drops is a trap. I want to be able to counter deploy - see where my targets are and deploy accordingly. 

Worst thing in my mind for this list is Tooth and Nail. That mission right there... it'd really do it over. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by lare2

[PrimeElectrid]

40 minutes ago, boyadventurer said:

TFW Cities basically gets the infinite damage negating Cycle o/t Storm, lol

Stormcast aren’t allowed good things 

[NauticalSoup]

Does it really reflect well on SCE players that we whine this much when an obviously overtuned unit gets reigned in? It's not like SCE are performing so badly we need a crutch.

I'm glad they nerfed it now rather than after people had bought a bunch. There was absolutely no way they weren't getting nerfed so this is a best case scenario. The original points were a joke.

[Chronos]

Well, FLGS had three boxes of Dracoths and I took home two, so maybe they'll be even more more valuable with the dragons going up.

[Chronos]

53 minutes ago, lare2 said:

You and me both. I played around with this list for a bit and in previous games, not having feet on the ground really hurts. I like 3 basic battleline here: 1 to protect the castle and 2 to protect a wing each and to hunt objectives. I was just never really happy with the chaff SCE could offer. Aetherwings could work in this role as well but I'm happy to pay the 10pts extra for skinks. 

Depends who I'm up against. There's only so much you can keep up in space. The grandhammers have to go up and if someone can threaten my castle 1st turn, I'm more concerned about the Longstrike. There aren't many armies that have that kinda reach in the 1st turn though. Lumineth, definitely. 

It's a great combo. Along with the Relictor's damage spell and the imperator's shooting, they're a great way to cause chip damage and to deter if anything gets too close to your castle. 

Nope. They can only go in the generic ones. I ran them in Warlord with all my heroes. The grandhammers went on hunters and the rest went in redemption. Having low drops is a trap. I want to be able to counter deploy - see where my targets are and deploy accordingly. 

Worst thing in my mind for this list is Tooth and Nail. That mission right there... it'd really do it over. 

This is all great, I'm definitely thinking along the same lines. I got my skinks! I have my 3-gamer on the 27th so have a few things to get built, I'm excited to try everything out. I'm literally taking the same list, unless I last minute switch another 3 Raptors in instead of Grandhammers, but I think I'll save that against the really top tier lists.

Great conversation!

[JackStreicher]

Alright
I saw the nerf of the dragons, here’s what I think about it:

- I like that they adjusted the points before anyone could buy too many of them

- It is curious that this point value is exactly the value Warhammer Weekly and other channels wished it to be

- It is strange that nothing else has been changed. There’re other units that are overcosted in that book. In this case we’re not talking about slightly overcosted Models (like Karazai) but ridiculous point values like the Lord Exorcist.

So I come to the conclusion that they did not playtest it at all, instead they listened to feedback.

This is good and bad at the same time:

- Listening to good feedback is ace!

- Putting such too low point costs into the Battletome at all is witness to how much they actually test their products: They don’t, or they must ignore feedback at that stage.

Which brings me to the next point. Why does playtesting not to be a thing?

- Is it too much pressure (too few time for too many rules)?

- Is it arrogance?

 

My personal feeling is that they don’t have much time, they are also not interested in touching rules and or warscrolls a second time (most warscrolls are a copy and paste of their old incarnation with little to no creativity). And they are not interested in fixing broken units or factions unless the uproar and therefor the pr gets too bad.

We really need a point fix for Slaanesh, we need Warscroll rewrites for several units like Black Knights and we need more common sense and creativity concerning rules and Warscroll design. As of late AoS rules have felt like a half baked, neglected product they don’t care for.

They REALLY need to improve their communication with their fanbase. They are doing too little, too late and are too rigid in their way.

Edited November 19, 2021 by JackStreicher

[pixieproxy]

26 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Alright
I saw the nerf of the dragons, here’s what I think about it:

- I like that they adjusted the points before anyone could buy too many of them

- It is curious that this point value is exactly the value Warhammer Weekly and other channels wished it to be

- It is strange that nothing else has been changed. There’re other units that are overcosted in that book. In this case we’re not talking about slightly overcosted Models (like Karazai) but ridiculous point values like the Lord Exorcist.

So I come to the conclusion that they did not playtest it at all, instead they listened to feedback.

This is good and bad at the same time:

- Listening to good feedback is ace!

- Putting such too low point costs into the Battletome at all is witness to how much they actually test their products: They don’t, or they must ignore feedback at that stage.

Which brings me to the next point. Why does playtesting not to be a thing?

- Is it too much pressure (too few time for too many rules)?

- Is it arrogance?

 

My personal feeling is that they don’t have much time, they are also not interested in touching rules and or warscrolls a second time (most warscrolls are a copy and paste of their old incarnation with little to no creativity). And they are not interested in fixing broken units or factions unless the uproar and therefor the pr gets too bad.

We really need a point fix for Slaanesh, we need Warscroll rewrites for several units like Black Knights and we need more common sense and creativity concerning rules and Warscroll design. As of late AoS rules have felt like a half baked, neglected product they don’t care for.

They REALLY need to improve their communication with their fanbase. They are doing too little, too late and are too rigid in their way.

Do note that these changes are part of a much larger balance update due in december, in the article they state they're letting us know about *these* ones in particular to not cause feelbads about rebalancing dragons *after* they're available. There may be many more changes, we just don't know.

[NauticalSoup]

24 minutes ago, pixieproxy said:

Do note that these changes are part of a much larger balance update due in december, in the article they state they're letting us know about *these* ones in particular to not cause feelbads about rebalancing dragons *after* they're available. There may be many more changes, we just don't know.

That's pretty nifty though, imo. GW typically doesn't do this- as a recent example, the blindside of Ork buggies becoming one-of units.  It sure would be nice if they had actually learned from a mistake, for once.

[lare2]

1 hour ago, Chronos said:

This is all great, I'm definitely thinking along the same lines. I got my skinks! I have my 3-gamer on the 27th so have a few things to get built, I'm excited to try everything out. I'm literally taking the same list, unless I last minute switch another 3 Raptors in instead of Grandhammers, but I think I'll save that against the really top tier lists.

Great conversation!

Good luck! Let us know how you get on. 

[Doko]

Math shows how fulminators dish out 20% more damage(50% more damage if we see damage per points,with new nerf gonna be as 70% more damage per point)

We have fulminators rigth now and even then sc arent even close to top tier following last gw rankings.......so a nerf for dragons that are worse than fulminators?

Also we hadnt big faq after 6 months because they hadnt data but now after 0,0000000 tournaments played with dragons they have data to nerf them? Good logic.

 

Glad i couldnt buy before the huge overnerf that they have got.

Even only the nerf of the -1 wound of prior faq was allready huge,but this nerf is a joke and worse when archaon,morathi,behemats,sentinels,foxes or salamandras arent being balanced

[PrimeElectrid]

1 hour ago, NauticalSoup said:

Does it really reflect well on SCE players that we whine this much when an obviously overtuned unit gets reigned in? It's not like SCE are performing so badly we need a crutch.

I'm glad they nerfed it now rather than after people had bought a bunch. There was absolutely no way they weren't getting nerfed so this is a best case scenario. The original points were a joke.

So a nerf was needed, but:
1) 340 is too high, and 300 for the knight is crazy high. Think of what you can get for 300 in other books.

2) They already nerfed dragons once through celestial menagerie. So now we have the classic GW double nerf. Will they go back and fix menagerie? Or the other garbage command traits? Like hell they will

3) What about the 20+ garbage warscrolls that aren’t worth the paper they are written one? Will they get needed rewrites/points changes? Maybe in another 12 months. GW typically nerf the main offenders in any one cycle and consider the matter closed (because that’s all that people moan about on social media)

4) what about literally everything else. Sentinels, Seraphon, mega gargants, Morathi and the bow snakes, Tzeentch-Archaon, horrors have been oppressive for months. Everyone could see this as quickly as they could see SDG are strong. Where are the emergency patches to address them? They’ve all been through multiple faq cycles and literally one of them (archaon) got a tickle of a nerf.

Finally, I don’t really care for being taken for a fool by whoever writes WarCom copy. Either they lied about needing data to do the winter update, or they lied about “play testing” SDG and finding them too good (spoiler: it’s actually both and this was driven by anti-SCE hate by influential people on twotter)

[Jaskier]

@PrimeElectrid it's pretty simple; they are patching SDG early before they are available to purchase so people don't feel ripped off when their brand new unit gets nerfed in the month of release. All the other changes to problem units, if they are coming, will be in the December FAQ as fits their usual update timeline. It's less about "fix this thing now" and more "don't buy too many of these right before we nerf them." 

It's honestly a very refreshing decision on their part, as they could have easily waited until after the initial sales rush to nerf them. 

[PrimeElectrid]

15 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

@PrimeElectrid it's pretty simple; they are patching SDG early before they are available to purchase so people don't feel ripped off when their brand new unit gets nerfed in the month of release. All the other changes to problem units, if they are coming, will be in the December FAQ as fits their usual update timeline. It's less about "fix this thing now" and more "don't buy too many of these right before we nerf them." 

It's honestly a very refreshing decision on their part, as they could have easily waited until after the initial sales rush to nerf them. 

That doesn’t address anything I said.

All they have said about that balance update is that it will help underperforming units, not reign in the stuff at the top.

[Jaskier]

12 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

That doesn’t address anything I said.

All they have said about that balance update is that it will help underperforming units, not reign in the stuff at the top.

How does it not? For reference, I was replying specifically to your #4 point. I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of your post. The reality is they tend not to do major changes outside of GHB and the end-of-year update, particularly if it's for points (the most likely way they'll address things like Morathi and Sentinels.) It's clear they revealed the SDG change early for consumers' benefit, and the nerfs/buffs to other units will be in December as is the norm. The situation is only unique because of the stock issues they've been having. 

And that wording in the article doesn't mean they won't adjust points on problem units at the other end, in fact it'd be unusual if nothing got nerfed. I'd be extremely surprised if the balance update doesn't nerf anything; that's just how GW articles tend to frame things. 

 

[kore5022]

6 hours ago, Sagittarii Orientalis said:

Then all the more reasons for me to doubt their competence and/or "equitableness" towards various factions. I do not think I have ever witnessed massive points nerf on models that are yet to be released, let alone accumulate enough data on competitive scenes. 

So instead they release them at the original points, people go buy huge armies then get nerfed AFTER they've spent there money only to cop even more backlash. Doing it this way is actually worse for a business than doing it afterwards which could potenatially lead to mroe sales but more backlash

 

Everyone knew they were about to be a ridiculous army, they were going to get toned down at some point and GW did the polite thing.

I guess theres just no winning with wargamers people are just going to whinge and moan no matter what it seems

[Ragest]

Thanks God they messed up the release and we are going to buy those (or not) knowing the two nerfs in a row they had suffered.

[Freejack02]

3 hours ago, Jaskier said:

It's honestly a very refreshing decision on their part, as they could have easily waited until after the initial sales rush to nerf them. 

Refreshing would be actually releasing them balanced in the battletome to begin with. 

 

1 hour ago, kore5022 said:

I guess theres just no winning with wargamers people are just going to whinge and moan no matter what it seems

If you are putting the blame for this negative response on the players and not on GW in the first place, you are the reason they keep doing it. Stop sticking up for their no-effort "testing" and rules/balance writing.  

[Jaskier]

1 hour ago, Freejack02 said:

Refreshing would be actually releasing them balanced in the battletome to begin with. 

Now that's expecting just a bit too much, we are talking about GW here 😅

Edited November 20, 2021 by Jaskier

[frostfire]

Knight-Draconis is still neat on 300

[pnkdth]

Rather take additional erratas and point adjustments than rewarding players who chase the meta. I'd love for GW to release cleaner and more refined rules but since the player base reward GW for power creep and/or releasing powerful units it is going to keep on going.

Same is true for the video game industry, they've learned a lot of people are willing to pay extra if it means they'll win. If you don't want to get burned by games (tabletop or digital) stop pre-ordering or rushing in to capitalise on "bugs" because things will, and should, change to improve the gaming experience. I am aware this is not the only reason (I'm not calling anyone out specifically) to be annoyed (FAQs for FAQS, multiple release, "DLC", and so on) but it is rather telling when so many decide to suddenly love dragon models at the same time they become super powerful.

With this in mind the dataslate for 40k and the upcoming one for AoS is a most welcomed addition. Especially since they marked out underperforming armies too. If they pull this off well (as in transitioning to more of a living document kind of rules) I might just be persuaded to start using their digital service because this is exactly the behaviour I want to see, i.e. adjustments at the bottom AND the top. 

The deciding factor will come down to how they do it.

[JackStreicher]

Let’s be realistic: GW barely playtests anything. The first real playtesting is done by the players. That’s why new releases are as messy (quality and power-wise) as they are.