Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[Chronos]

9 minutes ago, Chronos said:

So I have my first in person game tomorrow, possibly against Nurgle, and I'm trying to finalize my list but not to just specifically fight a certain army. I don't have any Dracoths. I'm thinking either to go Celestial Warbringers, or possibly Knights Excelsior depending on the list. Both would be Scions and both probably Pillars of Belief for the Grand Strategy.

For CW I'm thinking:

Leaders

Lord Imperatant

Knight Incantor - Celestial Blades

Knight Judicator w/Grpyh Hounds

Lord Relictor - General, High Priest, Mirror Shield

Units

2x3 Annihilators w/Grand Hammers

3x5 Vindictors - Battleline

1x6 Vanguard Raptors

 

If I went KE:

Leaders:

Lord Imperatant

Knight Incantor - Celestial Blades

Knight Vexilor - Meteoric Standard

Lord Relictor - General, High Priest, Mirror Shield

Units

2x3 Annihilators w/Grand Hammers

1x3 Annihilators w/Shields

2x5 Vindictors

1x6 Vanguard Raptors

 

I would take Thunderbolt Volley with both. I'm not sure if I should go for a true one drop, or go for another artifact/holy command.

Apologies that I accidentally posted only half done!

 

 

I just realized I can't actually do a true one drop as the lists are, so I guess I may as well go for a 4 drop for an extra artifact or holy command. I could also switch the Knight Vexilor out for a unit of 5 Vindictors and both would be exactly 2000 points.

Really not sure what to do!

[SerialMoM]

I played a 1500 points game against a Troggoth army. It was my first game with Stormcast and only my second game in 3rd edition.

 

I had

Lord Relictor,

battlemage (Ghur)

2 x 2 Fulminators

2x 5 Liberators

1x6 Longstrike Raptors

1x3 Aetherwings.

 

I played a Hammers of Sigmar stormkeep army.

The Longstrike were really good. Although they only killed 3 Troggoths in turn one with Thunderbolt volley and normal shooting phase. They really worked great the whole game. 

One shot from them and a charge from the Fulminators and whatever was there before was gone.

And our high save values are great. Even Liberators can be pushed quite well and stay at a 4+ save against rend 2 enemies.

And Liberators are great. In Stormkeep they have so many possibilities to do mortal wounds, it is great. I really loved to play with them.

 

And I love how the third editions plays in general.

[KarrWolves]

Hey guys, I'd like your opinion on which unit should be my general for the list I'm planning to play when the drakes finally arrive.

Here's my list:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hallowed Knights (Stormkeep)
- Grand Strategy: ?
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Gardus Steel Soul (160)*
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)**
Knight-Draconis (255)**
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
Knight-Incantor (125)**
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
- Spell: Celestial Blades

Battleline
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*

Units
3 x Praetors (165)*
2 x Stormdrake Guard (285)*
- Drakerider's Lance

Behemoths
Frostheart Phoenix (220)*

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Command Entourage - Magnificent

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Call for Aid

Total: 1980 / 2000
Wounds: 99
Drops: 4
 

2 options:

1) Knight-Draconis General => Stormdrake Guard become battleline so I can play 1 unit of 10 Vindictors; Grand Strategy = Hold the Line ? Also what Command Trait?

2) Knight-Incantor General => Master of Magic Command Trait and Prized Sorcery Grand Strategy?

What do you think?

[JackStreicher]

17 hours ago, SerialMoM said:

And I love how the third editions plays in general.

Same. The only thing that really stings is the save stacking. They REALLY should limit the amount of +1 save you can get to a max of 2. Some armies can rack up so many +1 to save buffs super easily. At some point you can't kill anything anymore when they can get multiple heroes to a unrendable +2 save due to having a +3 or +4 to save inside an aura. - it's unfun.
We also need way more rend -3 in the game. Maybe even as genereic command ability for melee combat.

Edited November 3, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Sagittarii Orientalis]

I prefer applying rend characteristics after completely resolving save modifiers. So that no matter how many positive save modifiers are applied, save increases by 1 point at maximum. And then the rend modifiers come in. In this situation rend will become more relevant in the meta.

I wonder if save stacking issue will be addressed in the rumoured winter FAQ.

[Phasteon]

52 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Same. The only thing that really stings is the save stacking. They REALLY should limit the amount of +1 save you can get to a max of 2. Some armies can rack up so many +1 to save buffs super easily. At some point you can't kill anything anymore when they can get multiple heroes to a unrendable +2 save due to having a +3 or +4 to save inside an aura. - it's unfun.
We also need way more rend -3 in the game. Maybe even as genereic command ability for melee combat.

I don’t know about that tbh, Annihilators are on a 2+ Save most of the time and still die pretty easily most of the time to a mix of chip MW, lots of wounds or 2-3 high damage wounds rolling a 1 for saves. 

A 3+ or even 2+ Save means that you will shrug off most of the damage but it certainly doesnt make you ‚unkillable‘

 

If someone stacks multiple layers of +1 Save, most of the time its

a) on a unit with 4+ or worse base Save so he is saving on 3+ at best

b) on a unit thats relatively weak to MW (little wounds and/or no ward/or very expensive) 

c) very predictable which unit gets protected (eg Protectors with Castellants Lantern + Mystic Shield) in which case its either b) or 

d) best to ignore them and try to kill something else, nobody can give all his units a 2+ rend ignoring Save*
 

* „But I need to kill his unit or I lose on points because I cant take the objective!“ 

Well, thats a good strategy by your opponent then, If you cant handle that he probably deserved to win. 

Ask yourself why you dont have a strategy against that? (eg assassinate the Castellant and the Wizard handing out Mystic Shield THEN going in)

 

I think save stacking is no general problem, as we are also see more and more MWs via 6+ to hit/wound get implemented in the game. 

Armies like KO that rely mostly on -1 rend shooting can easily adapt because of their superior mobility. Save stacking is actually a good thing, regarding how oppressive KO were in the end of 2th - now you can just take it to the chin and counterpunch if the KO overcommits. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Phasteon

[JackStreicher]

56 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

A 3+ or even 2+ Save means that you will shrug off most of the damage but it certainly doesnt make you ‚unkillable‘

First off: it does. Most armies lack mortal wound output. A 2+ unrendable (because you have +3 to the save) prevents 5/6 of all attacks. You‘ll basically need a gazillion attacks to kill anything.

 

Just one example: I played a guy who managed to keep 2 auras of +1 to save online combined with all out defense and mystic shield he basically had a +3 save for half of his army (Sylvaneth). 
 

That Game was fun, not. You can‘t strategize against that unless you know that you‘ll be facing this exact list. Since, you know, save stacking isn’t all they do, it’s just an easy to uphold ability/spell while there’s a lot more going on, like obscene amounts of Mortal wounds (Alarielle’s spell) and the whole battle.

 

Save stacking is a huge issue in this edition. As mentioned: most armies don’t have the tools to fight it and some armies get +x to their save way too easily.

 

 

[Phasteon]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

First off: it does. Most armies lack mortal wound output. A 2+ unrendable (because you have +3 to the save) prevents 5/6 of all attacks. You‘ll basically need a gazillion attacks to kill anything.

First off: Thats objectively not true. All armies have MWs in some form. Denying that is just objectively wrong.

Also if you‘ve read my post carefully, you would have noticed that I explained how to deal with stacked saves even if you don‘t have enough MWs.

Just one example: I played a guy who managed to keep 2 auras of +1 to save online combined with all out defense and mystic shield he basically had a +3 save for half of his army (Sylvaneth). 
 

Most Sylvaneth start with a 4+ or even 5+ Save, so they‘re saving on 3+/4+ which is not that hard to chew through. Also All out Defense / Mystic Shield are no Auras, only ONE unit at a time benefits from it, again if you read my post I already explained how to counterplay that.

That Game was fun, not. You can‘t strategize against that unless you know that you‘ll be facing this exact list. Since, you know, save stacking isn’t all they do, it’s just an easy to uphold ability/spell while there’s a lot more going on, like obscene amounts of Mortal wounds (Alarielle’s spell) and the whole battle.

Sorry, but you absolutely DON‘T need any kind of anti-build or list tailored to deal with + save when its a core mechanic of the game now. YOU KNOW you have to face +1/2 to Saves and if you are not ready to face it you want the game to adapt to your taste, instead of doing it the other way round as 99% of the rest does.

 

Save stacking is a huge issue in this edition. As mentioned: most armies don’t have the tools to fight it and some armies get +x to their save way too easily.

Again, you are objectively wrong, so your whole point is based on a false premise. 

 

 

I know it might sound like „git gud“ to you, but if you are struggling that hard against Sylvaneth because of + Save then you should take another look on your strategic / tactical knowledge of the game. 

I assume you played SCE as its the SCE discussion. Why didn‘t you just add up on your saves as well? Sylvaneth don‘t exactly have that much MW output aside from Alarielle. 
At least not that much that its impossible to deal with. 

 

Sorry to be that direct, but it just seems that you didn‘t take a loss all that well. 

[Horizons]

I'm basing this solely on the two v 3.0 tomes that we've seen but I believe save stacking was something they knew was going to happen and are ok with it being a part of the game.

They seem to have upped rend across the board or have given tools to circumvent High saves.

Kruleboyz with MW's to hit.

Bonesplitterz with MW's to wound and access to rend 2 boars.

Ironjawz with access to rend 3.

I didn't play Stormcast before the new book but it seems there is a lot more rend 1, 2 and 3 then previously.

Whether this will be enough is something we'll have to see. I can say I'm really happy that they changed how 1+ save and rend interacted.

[PJetski]

Save stacking defines Stormcast and that's cool & good

In some other armies it can become abusive - they weren't written with 3rd edition in mind and the errata doesnt go far enough to clean them up

I think the issue is Their Finest Hour and Heroic Recovery. Mystic Shield and AOD have limitations, counterplay, and opportunity costs (once per phase, have to cast a spell or spend a command point, cant receive multiple commands, can be unbound/roared, etc.) but TFH is the last piece of the puzzle that makes 3+ HERO MONSTER units feel oppressive. It can't be stopped and the opportunity cost is really low.

Heroic Recovery should probably just heal 1 always with no bravery check required, OR heal d3 always but you cant use it while within 3" of an enemy and you cant charge later in the same turn

Edited November 3, 2021 by PJetski

[Siorra]

On 11/2/2021 at 2:23 PM, lordmeaty said:

So I worked in your Feedback. You are a big help.

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Knight-Incantor (125)*
- Spell: Celestial Blades
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Thundershock

Battleline
4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 1x Grandweapons
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 1x Grandweapons
5 x Judicators with Boltstorm Crossbows (190)*

Units
3 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (240)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Call for Aid

Total: 1420 / 1500
Reinforced Units: 1 / 3
Allies: 0 / 300
Wounds: 75
Drops: 1

 

I am still not sure about the last 80 Points though. Maybe I'll take a DaisArcanum if I need some Mobility on my Heroes.

With your spare points you could drop 1 unit of Liberators and reinforce your Judicators. Would make a a great target for Thunderbolt Volley. Also someone mentioned using them to soften up screens before your Annihilators charge - maybe don't do this. They can easily start removing models closest to them and suddenly your 7" charge is a 9/10" charge which you're going to struggle to make.

[Squark]

3 hours ago, Siorra said:

With your spare points you could drop 1 unit of Liberators and reinforce your Judicators. Would make a a great target for Thunderbolt Volley. Also someone mentioned using them to soften up screens before your Annihilators charge - maybe don't do this. They can easily start removing models closest to them and suddenly your 7" charge is a 9/10" charge which you're going to struggle to make.

Thunderbolt Volley doesn't work with that setup. Crossbow Judicators need translocation support and a model to issue TBV after they translocate (Tricky outside of the questionable use of Stormdrake Guard to issue Holy Commands after their hero-phase move).

If you bring Judicators down to support Annihilators, they should target a support hero or a unit that can unleash hell. I was previously suggesting they screen clean for the Fulminators, who can get much closer (At least with Steadfast March).

With 4 Fulminators to 3 Grandhammers, supporting the former seems more important to me.

 

One thing you could do if you could get your hands on the model would be to replace one unit of Liberators with a Ghur Battlemage, who can support the Fulminators' charge with Wildform.

[AdamR]

18 minutes ago, Squark said:

Thunderbolt Volley doesn't work with that setup. Crossbow Judicators need translocation support and a model to issue TBV after they translocate (Tricky outside of the questionable use of Stormdrake Guard to issue Holy Commands after their hero-phase move).

 

Thunderbolt volley let's the judicators fire in the hero phase, it doesn't say they have to do so as soon as the command is issued.

Give command with Lord Relictor. Translocate. Profit.

[Drofnum]

7 minutes ago, AdamR said:

Thunderbolt volley let's the judicators fire in the hero phase, it doesn't say they have to do so as soon as the command is issued.

Give command with Lord Relictor. Translocate. Profit.

Doesnt work, the ability states they can shoot in the phase the command is issued.  So they must shoot in the hero phase.

[AdamR]

4 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

Doesnt work, the ability states they can shoot in the phase the command is issued.  So they must shoot in the hero phase.

Not seeing the problem?

Issue command in hero phase 

Translocate in the hero phase 

Shoot in the hero phase.

What's the issue?

 

 

 

 

[Drofnum]

1 minute ago, AdamR said:

Not seeing the problem?

Issue command in hero phase 

Translocate in the hero phase 

Shoot in the hero phase.

What's the issue?

 

 

 

 

Yeah I was thinking Translocate was in the movement phase.  My bad!

 

[PJetski]

19 minutes ago, AdamR said:

Not seeing the problem?

Issue command in hero phase 

Translocate in the hero phase 

Shoot in the hero phase.

What's the issue?

 

 

 

 

You have to fully resolve an ability before you can use another one.

Thunderbolt Volley doesn't say you can shoot later in the phase, like some other abilities in the game do. It works exactly like Unleash Hell shoot as soon as you receive the command.

You must shoot with TV immediately, you cannot issue the command, translocate, then shoot.

Edited November 3, 2021 by PJetski

[AdamR]

12 minutes ago, PJetski said:

You have to fully resolve an ability before you can use another one.

 

Just reread the abilities and command abilities sections of the core rules, and I can't find this?

Can you point me to it?

[Phasteon]

48 minutes ago, PJetski said:

You have to fully resolve an ability before you can use another one.

Thunderbolt Volley doesn't say you can shoot later in the phase, like some other abilities in the game do. It works exactly like Unleash Hell shoot as soon as you receive the command.

You must shoot with TV immediately, you cannot issue the command, translocate, then shoot.

Another reason why Bastian is awesome, he can order anywhere on the board!

[Squark]

1 hour ago, Phasteon said:

Another reason why Bastian is awesome, he can order anywhere on the board!

Maybe. The jury is out on how the extra qualifications for Holy Commands' range intwracts with Bastan's ability. The rulebook says how effects can override each other, but not how can vs. can't works.

[Skreech Verminking]

18 hours ago, Phasteon said:

But I need to kill his unit or I lose on points because I cant take the objective!“ 

What would a gloomspite gitz or beasts of chaos player say to that, I wonder

[Beliman]

8 hours ago, PJetski said:

Thunderbolt Volley doesn't say you can shoot later in the phase, like some other abilities in the game do. It works exactly like Unleash Hell shoot as soon as you receive the command.

I think that you can.

Thunderbolt Volley allows you to shoot in the Hero Phase, so, not at the Start and not at the End of that phase, but that's all.

Note: Unleash Hell, technically, works exactly like that. You could shoot later in the charge phase, but you must target the same unit that charged and allowed to trigger Unleash Hell, so it's a bit pointless to wait later in the turn.

[Phasteon]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

What would a gloomspite gitz or beasts of chaos player say to that, I wonder

Last time I faced GSG they caused MW on 6s with their 60 grots and ~40 attacks while placing, well, 60 bodies on the objective…

Did they change that? 

[Phasteon]

6 hours ago, Squark said:

Maybe. The jury is out on how the extra qualifications for Holy Commands' range intwracts with Bastan's ability. The rulebook says how effects can override each other, but not how can vs. can't works.

RAW he absolutely can.

He is a Lord so he qualified for using the ability and thundering voice lets him „command a unit anywhere on the battlefield“ which lets him literally ignore any range boundaries - remember EVERY Command Ability has a range limit, so your statement doesn‘t make sense at all, because if a fixed range would disable his ability it would literally be useless 100% of the time.

[AdamR]

33 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I think that you can.

Thunderbolt Volley allows you to shoot in the Hero Phase, so, not at the Start and not at the End of that phase, but that's all.

Note: Unleash Hell, technically, works exactly like that. You could shoot later in the charge phase, but you must target the same unit that charged and allowed to trigger Unleash Hell, so it's a bit pointless to wait later in the turn.

This is my reading of it also 👍