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Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors


PJetski
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2 minutes ago, Kaptinskaggy said:

Yeah I think it's neat to finally have a group of Stormcast that actually fit the "band of heroes" fantasy that Underworlds warbands (and Stormcast in general) are supposed to have. 

It's ironic that their rules in Underworlds are nowhere near as good as their rules in Age of Sigmar xD

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1 hour ago, Beliman said:

A few notes: You can't move after Fly High (nor disembark). Only one subfaction (Zilfin) has a once-per-game (you know, like your Holy Orders).

And let's be honest, KOs is a faction without a lot of basic mechanics or tech-tools (no wizards, priests and monsters, etc...). Not sure if that counts too.

You can with alpha beast pack. Fly high 9” away pregame. Move in your turn 1.

Again, my point is not that everyone has access to a teleport and move; but that everyone has access to comparable abilities. If Translocate and move was too good, then how is everyone coping with those other abilities?

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1 hour ago, Beliman said:

A few notes: You can't move after Fly High (nor disembark). Only one subfaction (Zilfin) has a once-per-game (you know, like your Holy Orders).

And let's be honest, KOs is a faction without a lot of basic mechanics or tech-tools (no wizards, priests and monsters, etc...). Not sure if that counts too.

You can with alpha beast pack. Fly high 9” away pregame. Move in your turn 1.

Again, my point is not that everyone has access to a teleport and move; but that everyone has access to comparable abilities. If Translocate and move was too good, then how is everyone coping with those other abilities?

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The menagerie change is proof that GW caters to the anti stormcast hate.  It can't be disputed anymore.  Let me explain.  The changes to cycle of the storm and translocate are dumb, let me say first off.  I don't agree with them.  That said, I can see an argument being made for the changes to both of those based on similar abilities and poor wording issues.  Neither of those things applies to menagerie.

The menagerie change is a balance change straight up.  A balance change based on NO data.  At all.  It's a nerf to models that aren't out yet before anyone has had a chance to play them.  They are nerfing that trait simply because the anti stormcast brigade cried really hard about it.  

Let's take 40k for instance.  Nerfs to various armies don't occur until they skew tournies badly or put up silly win numbers.  Armies in AOS are broken for extended periods of time with no nerf.  The cry is typically, "let's let the meta play out and see if nerfe are needed."  Which is valid. 

Now stormcast get something that looks strong and it gets nerfed BEFORE THE OFFENDING MODELS ARE RELEASED WITH OBVIOUSLY NO DATA TO SUPPORT SAID NERF.  It's literally unprecedented.  It clearly happened because some people believe that Stormcast cannot and should not have nice things.  Its stupid and unfair, quite frankly.  Especially when you factor in the translocation change. 

Now, before anyone says it: is this post salty?  Sure is!  Is the salt warranted though?  SURE. IS.

Edited by Celestantpants
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17 minutes ago, Celestantpants said:

The menagerie change is proof that GW caters to the anti stormcast hate.  It can't be disputed anymore.  Let me explain.  The changes to cycle of the storm and translocate are dumb, let me say first off.  I don't agree with them.  That said, I can see an argument being made for the changes to both of those based on similar abilities and poor wording issues.  Neither of those things applies to menagerie.

The menagerie change is a balance change straight up.  A balance change based on NO data.  At all.  It's a nerf to models that aren't out yet before anyone has had a chance to play them.  They are nerfing that trait simply because the anti stormcast brigade cried really hard about it.  

Let's take 40k for instance.  Nerfs to various armies don't occur until they skew tournies badly or put up silly win numbers.  Armies in AOS are broken for extended periods of time with no nerf.  The cry is typically, "let's let the meta play out and see if nerfe are needed."  Which is valid. 

Now stormcast get something that looks strong and it gets nerfed BEFORE THE OFFENDING MODELS ARE RELEASED WITH OBVIOUSLY NO DATA TO SUPPORT SAID NERF.  It's literally unprecedented.  It clearly happened because some people believe that Stormcast cannot and should not have nice things.  Its stupid and unfair, quite frankly.  Especially when you factor in the translocation change. 

Now, before anyone says it: is this post salty?  Sure is!  Is the salt warranted though?  SURE. IS.

A trait that can grant a whole army based around tough monster units -1 to wound is just stupid. 

Anyone defending it is not better than those haters crying for unreasonable nerfs. 

The FAQ changes were legit and good for internal / external balance. period.

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6 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

A trait that can grant a whole army based around tough monster units -1 to wound is just stupid. 

Anyone defending it is not better than those haters crying for unreasonable nerfs. 

The FAQ changes were legit and good for internal / external balance. period.

Uh huh.  How come Stormcast are the only army getting pre nerfed?  Also, I'm not against nerfing the trait....i just want to wait for data to make sure it's warranted.  Like literally. Every. Single. Other. Army.  PERIOD.

Edited by Celestantpants
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The Translocation and Cycle changes I expected to happen and quite frankly I'm not all that bothered by.

The Celestial Menagerie change just seems like a massive over swing with the nerf-bat.

It now only applies to models with the BEHEMOTH battlefield role and as far as I am aware only applies to the Stardrake and the Drakesworn Templar. The consensus seems to be that the Templar is rubbish and I very much doubt we will see people running 2 Stardrakes.

I suppose at least all the Stormcast Command Traits are all pretty bad... at least High Priest exists...

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6 minutes ago, Stormblood said:

Good evening fellow translocees

 

OOC:  Does Unleash the Hatred Holy Command (plus 1 attack one time for one unit of Paladins) affect the Starsoul maces as well?  Or just the base weapons?

Yes. That being said, Retribuitors will be served better by pure hammers. Protectors, though, may want some maces.

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33 minutes ago, Squark said:

Yes. That being said, Retribuitors will be served better by pure hammers. Protectors, though, may want some maces.

Ok thanks, didnt know it was still considered an attack or not.  And you guessed right-its for 5 protectors

 

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Now that the FAQ is here and some reinforcements such as Grandhammer Annihilators are imminent, brewing can commence. This is what I am planning to paint up:

SCE 2K: Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior - Scions
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

LEADERS
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (200)*
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny
- Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
- Spell: Azyrite Halo

Lord-Imperatant (175)*

Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Prayer: Translocation

UNITS
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*

3 x Evocators on Dracolines (280)*
- 2 x Grandstaves

5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 1 x Grandweapons

5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 1 x Grandweapons

6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*

CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment

ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

TOTAL: 1990/2000

The idea is simple. The army is one-drop, so it can often choose whether to go first. It has a combo of Relictor, Raptors, Imperatant and Grandhammer Annihilators. This involves the Relictor Translocating the Raptors to a good spot, after which they shoot at an enemy screen in the hero Phase using Thunderbolt Volley. In the movement phase, Imperatant and Annihilators drop, the latter just outside 7” of the enemy, hopefully exploiting the gap that Raptors punched. Raptors then shoot at any units that could Unleash Hell, which is followed by a rerollable 7” charge by the Annihilators.

The army has an additional mobile melee hammer in Evocators and Lord-Arcanum on Dracolines. This can provide follow-up to the Annihilators if needed, take out isolated units holding objectives, and so on. They are very fast and pretty killy but will not fare well if stuck in a prolonged combat. An alternative could be 4 Fulminators, but I think I prefer the Arcanum and Evocats – they are wizards for unbinds, they can hit a second unit with Mortal Wounds, they are faster, and the Arcanum ensures that the list is not cold to the Apex Predators mission. I could be wrong.

I am unsure about the artifact. I have given Amulet of Destiny to the Arcanum who will be getting into the thick of things. By contrast, Lord-Relictor will be hanging out behind a screen of Liberators and is not strictly critical for the list after the initial volley, so I do not think Mirrorshield is necessary. On the minus side, the list now gives away the Slay the Warlord battle tactic more easily.

Comments?

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8 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

You can with alpha beast pack. Fly high 9” away pregame. Move in your turn 1.

Again, my point is not that everyone has access to a teleport and move; but that everyone has access to comparable abilities. If Translocate and move was too good, then how is everyone coping with those other abilities?

I completely understand your point. But try to understand mine:

  • An Alpha Beast Pack is a battalion that need two skyvessels (Frigatte and Ironclad), only one of this skyvessels can teleport with High Fly and they can only transport "Marine" keywords (Riggers can't use Hitchers in the Hero Phase anymore), it's once per game and only in the first turn.
  • Translocate is a prayer that can target any SCE, on a 3+ roll.

If Translocate used 1CP and could only target units with Mounts (?), it would be understandable. If it was a combo of a Mount Trait and Artefact, it would be understandable. If it was an interaction of a Stormkeeps abilities with an Ability from Evocats warscroll, it would be understandable. If it was an exlusive stormhost ability "once-per-game", in the first turn, it would be understandable.
But just a 3+ prayer? That was a bit strange

But I thought that the movement from Lumineth Fox was a mistake, so...

Btw, Celestial Menagerie nerf is so random that I can't understand the logic behind.

Edited by Beliman
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10 hours ago, PJetski said:

Really good, but they're HAMMERS OF SIGMAR so I probably can't find room for them at 265. Maybe if they could take artefacts/traits/etc.

I don't mind putting them into my Celestial Vindicators force. Let's be honest here: Our subfactions are loughable. You basically gain no real bonus to speak of. So you can do it the Soulblight way and just run other subfactions in your favourite one ^^

-> Btw this is what worries me. The latest books do a poor job of making an army feel like it is supposed to feel. It's blant (to me at least)

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6 hours ago, Phasteon said:

A trait that can grant a whole army based around tough monster units -1 to wound is just stupid. 

Anyone defending it is not better than those haters crying for unreasonable nerfs. 

The FAQ changes were legit and good for internal / external balance. period.

Hold your horses. :D
Though monster units - correct. And how many of those do we have on the table? 6-9? That's a bit few for objective grabbing if you ask me. Our units usually die to Mortal Wounds and less so to ordinary attacks, that's why the -1 is not that much of a deal. Other hammer units simply have a slightly harder time against our super elite units, which would be fine.

May I also remind you that SBGL can buy a 80pts model that has a 12" -1 to wound aura? XD

All in all I don't think your argument is valid at all.

Edit: @Beliman The issue with KO is: They don't need a teleport and move and/or charge. All they need is a free teleport out of combat and back into weapon range. If GW now reworded fly high in a way that would prevent you from shooting after using it -oh boy- you would understand the outrage most here appear to have.

Edited by JackStreicher
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45 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Edit: @Beliman The issue with KO is: They don't need a teleport and move and/or charge. All they need is a free teleport out of combat and back into weapon range. If GW now reworded fly high in a way that would prevent you from shooting after using it -oh boy- you would understand the outrage most here appear to have.

They already did that: 

Quote

Q: If I use the Fly High ability to disengage with a unit, can that unit still shoot or charge later in the same turn?

A: It can still shoot as per the Disengage ability but it cannot charge.

In other words, if I don't have Disengage, I can't shoot or charge. And if the engaged enemy unit has fly, I can't even shoot with Disengage. That means that my balloon-dudes can't shoot or charge after they use Hitchers when they are engaged, no matter what...

Notes: And that's without couting that some tournaments only allow to disembarc in the end of the Movement Phase, that means that my Ship can't move for a turn if I want to disembarc. And all my garrisoned units doesn't count for objectives.

Btw, I'm not mad about that, I think it's healthy for the game.

Edited by Beliman
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1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Hold your horses. :D
Though monster units - correct. And how many of those do we have on the table? 6-9? That's a bit few for objective grabbing if you ask me. Our units usually die to Mortal Wounds and less so to ordinary attacks, that's why the -1 is not that much of a deal. Other hammer units simply have a slightly harder time against our super elite units, which would be fine.

May I also remind you that SBGL can buy a 80pts model that has a 12" -1 to wound aura? XD

All in all I don't think your argument is valid at all.

Edit: @Beliman The issue with KO is: They don't need a teleport and move and/or charge. All they need is a free teleport out of combat and back into weapon range. If GW now reworded fly high in a way that would prevent you from shooting after using it -oh boy- you would understand the outrage most here appear to have.

Oh my argument is very valid, because SBGL is an army with mostly low Save models, also its a 12“ aura (in fact i think its 9“ iirc but it doesnt really matter) so you can dodge it or just shoot the 80p model. 

The command trait on the other hand (besides being 0 points) works on an entire army, no matter what positioning and its on a model with tons of wounds thats hard to take down anyway. 

The trait ist still good, probably the best in the book - just not an absolute nightmare for armies with mostly 4+ to wound (like OBR for example)

 

Just because a mechanic exists in some other form doesnt mean its no problem to give it for free to an army of high wounds / high saves monsters. 

I think actually YOUR argument is not valid. 

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8 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

Just because a mechanic exists in some other form doesnt mean its no problem to give it for free to an army of high wounds / high saves monsters. 

Just because an ability exists and hasn't been thoroughly tested doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed.

If your army consists of 9 modesl you are entitled to be hard to kill, otherwise a few bad luck rolls will cost you the game. Especially in an army in which getting an aftersave is rather rare or unreliable to get.

Seems to me like an overreaction and an unwarrented one at that. Imagine SCE were Orruks, boy, the forums would be aflame with all the NPE and nonsensical powerboost rules those warclans have.

My point is: Thsi feels a lot like it was nerfed due to whiners, condemning abilities that weren't even tested just because they also happen to hate SCE.

Edited by JackStreicher
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12 minutes ago, Phasteon said:

Oh my argument is very valid, because SBGL is an army with mostly low Save models, also its a 12“ aura (in fact i think its 9“ iirc but it doesnt really matter) so you can dodge it or just shoot the 80p model. 

The command trait on the other hand (besides being 0 points) works on an entire army, no matter what positioning and its on a model with tons of wounds thats hard to take down anyway. 

The trait ist still good, probably the best in the book - just not an absolute nightmare for armies with mostly 4+ to wound (like OBR for example)

 

Just because a mechanic exists in some other form doesnt mean its no problem to give it for free to an army of high wounds / high saves monsters. 

I think actually YOUR argument is not valid. 

The trait is garbage, though. There’s exactly 4 behemoths, you’re unlikely to actually have more than one anyway, and the only one worth taking it on isn’t that good (my apologies to all the proud stardrake owners).

Fortunately, it joins the other command traits as outright garbage. Just rip the page out and throw it in the sea, along with battle tactics, grand strategies, every CA that isn’t Thunderfire Volley, all the artefacts but Mirrorshield, all the spells, and 30+ warscrolls.

We have to play with this book for the next 3-4 years and most of it is redundant already.
 

 

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12 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

My point is: Thsi feels a lot like it was nerfed due to whiners, condemning abilities that weren't even tested just because they also happen to hate SCE.

I wouldn‘t go down that path seriously. 

If I would truly believe they nerfed it because some angry kids cried loud on social media, I‘d be really sad. 

If they got rid of things like Mws on 6s for Judicators or nerfed the Vindictors Save to 4+ I‘d be with you on the „they just nerfed it because of internet hate“-train. 

But tranalocation and the menagerie trait CLEARLY stood out as something ridiculously strong. 

Options that were so much better than everything else, it was unreasonable not to take every game.

 

As much as I dislike those people crying for nerfs / buffs all the time - regarding those 2 fixes they were absolutely right.

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So, first list after the faq. The nerf fest is sad, but let's make something work. Idea is to work around the 'redeemer' and sacrosanct units. Using the hallowed knights theme to let them fight, even when going down. Redeemer, knight incantor and vexilor will cover the center and move up. 

The evocators on foot will count as dispel battery for a turn and drop in the back line using translocation to when an opening occurs. Evocats will move up the board with the Lord Arcanum on Gryph teleporting where needed. Afterwards, translocation can be used to reposition ballista. 

I feel like I use too many batallions and it are a lot of drops.. 

Army Type: Stormkeep
Subfaction: Hallowed Knights
Battlepack: Pitched Battles
Points Limit: 2000 pts
General: Lord-Relictor
Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
Triumph: Bloodthirsty
Holy Commands: Call for Aid
Core Battalions
    Command Entourage
        Knight-Incantor
            Spells: Azyrite Halo 
        Lord-Relictor (General)
            Command Traits: High Priest
            Artefacts of Power: Mirrorshield
            Prayers: Translocation
        Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger
            Spells: Thundershock
    Hunters of the Heartlands
      10  Vindictors
            Reinforced: Once
      3  Evocators on Celestial Dracolines
      5  Evocators
    Battle Regiment
      5  Sequitors
      5  Sequitors
    Grand Battery
        Celestar Ballista
        Celestar Ballista
        Knight-Vexillor with Banner of Apotheosis
Total Points: 1965 pts
 

Any thoughts? I was looking into the Lord Arcanum on Tauralon to buff the ballistas in the first turn. But wouldn't know what to change. 

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Megagargants have been too strong for 3 months - nothing.

Sentinels and foxes have been too strong for 6 months - nothing.

Tzeentch/Archaon has been too strong for 3 months - token nerf.

SCE are too strong for 4 weeks - immediate nerf

These nerfs don’t make other options viable because the other options are substantially worse. All command traits are garbage. SCE melee lists that aren’t dragons or annihilators are dead.

Edited by PrimeElectrid
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3 hours ago, feadair said:

Now that the FAQ is here and some reinforcements such as Grandhammer Annihilators are imminent, brewing can commence. This is what I am planning to paint up:

SCE 2K: Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior - Scions
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

LEADERS
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (200)*
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny
- Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
- Spell: Azyrite Halo

Lord-Imperatant (175)*

Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Prayer: Translocation

UNITS
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*

3 x Evocators on Dracolines (280)*
- 2 x Grandstaves

5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 1 x Grandweapons

5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 1 x Grandweapons

6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*

CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment

ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

TOTAL: 1990/2000

The idea is simple. The army is one-drop, so it can often choose whether to go first. It has a combo of Relictor, Raptors, Imperatant and Grandhammer Annihilators. This involves the Relictor Translocating the Raptors to a good spot, after which they shoot at an enemy screen in the hero Phase using Thunderbolt Volley. In the movement phase, Imperatant and Annihilators drop, the latter just outside 7” of the enemy, hopefully exploiting the gap that Raptors punched. Raptors then shoot at any units that could Unleash Hell, which is followed by a rerollable 7” charge by the Annihilators.

The army has an additional mobile melee hammer in Evocators and Lord-Arcanum on Dracolines. This can provide follow-up to the Annihilators if needed, take out isolated units holding objectives, and so on. They are very fast and pretty killy but will not fare well if stuck in a prolonged combat. An alternative could be 4 Fulminators, but I think I prefer the Arcanum and Evocats – they are wizards for unbinds, they can hit a second unit with Mortal Wounds, they are faster, and the Arcanum ensures that the list is not cold to the Apex Predators mission. I could be wrong.

I am unsure about the artifact. I have given Amulet of Destiny to the Arcanum who will be getting into the thick of things. By contrast, Lord-Relictor will be hanging out behind a screen of Liberators and is not strictly critical for the list after the initial volley, so I do not think Mirrorshield is necessary. On the minus side, the list now gives away the Slay the Warlord battle tactic more easily.

Comments?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe thunderbolt volley requires a knight model to issue the command, you've only got Lords. 

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