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Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors


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17 hours ago, Lucur said:

Take out the Retributors for a squad of Palladors and list 2 seems mean BUT you have no way to efficiently remove screens, you'll have to run into them. So maybe drop one annihilator unit or the protectors for some shooting, xbow judicators for example.

Palladors? Do you think they can have a place in a list? If u look at them I can see them harassing a unit, be an annoyance on a flank, but not more than that...

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I want to make Paladins work too but its rough going. So far I have a Stormkeep then a core of a list that I cant figure out what to do with.

Stormkeep list:

Spoiler

Hallowed Knights

Lord-Castellant, Mirrorshield, Staunch
Lord-Relictor, Translocation
Knight-Incantor, Azyrite Halo

Vindictors x 10
Vindictors x 10
Vindictors x 10
Protectors x 10
Chariot
Chariot

1985pts

Next isnt finished. I want to go ham on Paladins but I also realize I need to be reasonable in regards to objective holding and board control. And im back and forth on Yndrasta. Her abilities are nuts but im not of fan of that price tag for a single model.

Spoiler

Lord-Relictor, Translocation
Yndrasta

Protectors x 10
Protectors x 10
Liberators x 5

1480pts

 

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20 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Guess I wont be bringing stormcast to any events this year. This is just silly at this point.

 

4 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Genuinely considering dropping out of every event this year now. 

Genuinely sad to hear that. I am no tournament player myself but I can understand it. I always hoped to get more dragons for SCE and now that it finally happened (will happen) I want to assemble them, paint them and play with within my friendgroup. I guess this will take us another 2 to XX weeks then. Hopefully less than a two-digit number.

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This also highlights pain points in the new book. I really want to have Stormcast as my current hobby project. Expanding my army into the competitive area after playing other armies. But I can't see how to make a competitive army in this current Meta with the new book without any of the new units. The Annihilators and Stormdrakes are a huge part of where the power now lies, although the new battlelines are super cool, they are super bad, so nobody will ever play them unfortunately.

I guess something half decent could be something like this, just not really too confident in that really, a lot of the meta lists it will have a hard time with.

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)*
- Celestine Hammer
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (125)*
- Spell: Celestial Blades
4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)**
- Reinforced x 1
4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)**
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 1x Grandblades
1 x Stormstrike Chariot (165)**
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands
Artefact

Total: 1970 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
Drops: 7

Edited by Scurvydog
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I'm at the point now where I might as well shelve my SC. I'm not really excited for the tome, outside of dragons, and the odds of them being nerfed to oblivion are probably high. Going to two tourneys with a bunch of oldcast and trying to scratch out a few wins isn't very appealing.

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Yup, as I said before, it's quite silly at this point.  I know the pandemic has caused issues, but some of this is on GW.  Let's be honest, being competent is not one of their strong suits.  Was also only half joking before about getting the last units from our new book a month before 4th edition.  I mean, would it honestly surprise anyone at this point?  Also, what are the chances GW nerfs the dragons in points before they actually get a release for them?

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6 hours ago, Geoffreyvt said:

Palladors? Do you think they can have a place in a list? If u look at them I can see them harassing a unit, be an annoyance on a flank, but not more than that...

They're not for dealing damage, they are to run around and take objectives, maybe man handle a backline unit or support hero. They can certainly do that. If they add a bit of damage via shooting, that's gravy. They have  a good number of wounds and teleport every frigging round without any other resources. I think they are very much worth it once damage output and BL requirements are met in a list.

Edited by Lucur
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I have an event coming up and with no chance of the new units dropping in time I was thinking of bringing a shoot cast list. How does this look?

Celestial Warbringers

Ordinator

Relictor

2x5 Vindictors

1x5 Sequitors

4x Ballista

1x6 Longstrike Raptors

And then either an Incantor and more Sequitors (and make the Vindictors x10), or a Knight Judicator and Aetherwings for more pew pew and gryph shenanigans.

I'm still lost on battalions but it is a ton of long range shooting. Definitely not a 5-0 list but hoping it can win a few. Thoughts or tweaks?

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13 hours ago, Celestantpants said:

Yup, as I said before, it's quite silly at this point.  I know the pandemic has caused issues, but some of this is on GW.  Let's be honest, being competent is not one of their strong suits.  Was also only half joking before about getting the last units from our new book a month before 4th edition.  I mean, would it honestly surprise anyone at this point?  Also, what are the chances GW nerfs the dragons in points before they actually get a release for them?

Nah, GW is just balancing SCE by not releasing the most broken units. It's all for the matter of a good game experience ;)

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So far i had great succes with lists that included one ranged hammer (6 Longstrikes/10-15 Judis) and one melee hammer (4Fulminators/10-15Paladins)

12 hours ago, Colgado said:

I have an event coming up and with no chance of the new units dropping in time I was thinking of bringing a shoot cast list. How does this look?

Celestial Warbringers

Ordinator

Relictor

2x5 Vindictors

1x5 Sequitors

4x Ballista

1x6 Longstrike Raptors

And then either an Incantor and more Sequitors (and make the Vindictors x10), or a Knight Judicator and Aetherwings for more pew pew and gryph shenanigans.

I'm still lost on battalions but it is a ton of long range shooting. Definitely not a 5-0 list but hoping it can win a few. Thoughts or tweaks?

I think skipping melee hammer will make your list lack in total damage output, match ups against high woundcount armies will be difficult.

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16 minutes ago, Charleston said:

Nah, GW is just balancing SCE by not releasing the most broken units. It's all for the matter of a good game experience ;)

Yea, at least it forces a hard look at the rest of the book. 

Perhaps it is the bitterness of the wait and now probably not having time to paint up anything new for this falls events, but outside of these new units, there are really few tools in the book to deal with the competitive meta. 

Don't get me wrong, the core warscrolls are pretty good for a lot of older units, but it is just not enough in itself, to be more than 3/2 to 4/1 on the best of days. 

Looking at this purely in a competitive manner we do not have as good tools, or outright lacking tools, to deal with the major threats going around right now.

Shooting: Sentinels and Bow snakes are a pretty direct comparison to our ranged units. Judicators got MW on 6s sure, buw Blood stalkers got the same ranged profile, but they are cheaper per 5 (170 vs 200), less save but much faster and got a ward. Blood stalkers also got way better support, especially with hero phase shooting from Morathi, which Judicators can only do 1 time at best. Sentinels still blow them out of the water, with MWs on 5s from power of Hysh and 30" range and no line of sight requirement. They will also often be within a 5+ ward bubble, are faster and better at contesting objectives.

Heroes: We got no unique command abilities. We got some decent named characters, which are OK, they do not an army make though. As we are only looking at the currently available models, the stardrake and tauralon are our monster choices. They are just OK, with the Tauralon being more a utility piece, the Stardrake is the closest we get. I am not sure if he is up to the task of going toe to toe with similar pointed monster heroes, like Mega gargants, Mawkrushas, VLoZD etc. Those armies also got a better supporting system around their heroes typically, where Stormcast is almost just a compendium of warscrolls at this point with no real mechanic around them.

Utility: Everything seems to ride on the Lord Relictor and translocation at this point. If that gets FAQ'd at all, then the entire tome just nosedives into bleh territory for anything but the dragon builds. The paladin builds rely on this mobility trick to get anywhere important. Without it, they are just sitting ducks, and walking around the table is just asking to get peppered with mortal wounds. For casting we got a decent spell lore, but none of the available units got any bonuses to cast and we only got Aventis with more than 1 cast, as the regular Tauralon was brought down to 1 cast only. Relying on magic is just not going to happen in any competitive scene, as this will just get completely shut down by Seraphon, Lumineth, Nagash/Arkhan and will be tough against basically anyone else with the slightest bonus to unbind.

Points run out so fast and the wound count is low, as many points need to be invested to simply get the decent hammer units into range, without getting destroyed on the way. The lord imperatant is an expensive tax to simply get annihilators to work OK, and the relictor eats up almost 150 pts and a command trait, to sort of reliable get paladin units into combat or Fulminators. Even then, we get an issue with screening units and to deal with that, we need around 400 pts of ranged units as well...

Drakes solve most of these issue on their own warscroll, as well as benefitting so darn much from a single command trait. Once you have a -1 to be wounded trait for ALL monsters boardwide, doubling down on monsters is just so efficient. They fix the issue with poor anti magic, with a 50% magic ignore. They fix the mobility and delivery mechanism issues on their own, with hero phase move+charge. They provide fine ranged damage as well, a big improvement over the dracothian guards. They also fly and get all the monstrous rampage stuff, while they can be put into a hunters of the heartlands themselves. 

This is sort of the book where nothing is greater than the sum of their parts is what I feel  and I keep failing to make any list I am confident in doing better than 3/2 with, with the currently available models...

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1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

Shooting: Sentinels and Bow snakes are a pretty direct comparison to our ranged units. Judicators got MW on 6s sure, buw Blood stalkers got the same ranged profile, but they are cheaper per 5 (170 vs 200), less save but much faster and got a ward. Blood stalkers also got way better support, especially with hero phase shooting from Morathi, which Judicators can only do 1 time at best. Sentinels still blow them out of the water, with MWs on 5s from power of Hysh and 30" range and no line of sight requirement. They will also often be within a 5+ ward bubble, are faster and better at contesting objectives.

While I agree with some of the bitterness (the "compendium of warscrolls" particularly resonates with me), I think that comparing stormcast shooting options to the absolute best shooting units out there is not fair. Stormcast are not built to excel in one area -whether or not the design ultimately succeeds, is a different story of course. Furthermore, including the possibility of double tapping for snakes means straight up comparing our poor judicators to one of the best army lists out there. As for sentinels, judicators can be within a 5+ ward bubble too now! :D

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1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

Yea, at least it forces a hard look at the rest of the book. 

Perhaps it is the bitterness of the wait and now probably not having time to paint up anything new for this falls events, but outside of these new units, there are really few tools in the book to deal with the competitive meta. 

Don't get me wrong, the core warscrolls are pretty good for a lot of older units, but it is just not enough in itself, to be more than 3/2 to 4/1 on the best of days. 

Looking at this purely in a competitive manner we do not have as good tools, or outright lacking tools, to deal with the major threats going around right now.

Shooting: Sentinels and Bow snakes are a pretty direct comparison to our ranged units. Judicators got MW on 6s sure, buw Blood stalkers got the same ranged profile, but they are cheaper per 5 (170 vs 200), less save but much faster and got a ward. Blood stalkers also got way better support, especially with hero phase shooting from Morathi, which Judicators can only do 1 time at best. Sentinels still blow them out of the water, with MWs on 5s from power of Hysh and 30" range and no line of sight requirement. They will also often be within a 5+ ward bubble, are faster and better at contesting objectives.

Heroes: We got no unique command abilities. We got some decent named characters, which are OK, they do not an army make though. As we are only looking at the currently available models, the stardrake and tauralon are our monster choices. They are just OK, with the Tauralon being more a utility piece, the Stardrake is the closest we get. I am not sure if he is up to the task of going toe to toe with similar pointed monster heroes, like Mega gargants, Mawkrushas, VLoZD etc. Those armies also got a better supporting system around their heroes typically, where Stormcast is almost just a compendium of warscrolls at this point with no real mechanic around them.

Utility: Everything seems to ride on the Lord Relictor and translocation at this point. If that gets FAQ'd at all, then the entire tome just nosedives into bleh territory for anything but the dragon builds. The paladin builds rely on this mobility trick to get anywhere important. Without it, they are just sitting ducks, and walking around the table is just asking to get peppered with mortal wounds. For casting we got a decent spell lore, but none of the available units got any bonuses to cast and we only got Aventis with more than 1 cast, as the regular Tauralon was brought down to 1 cast only. Relying on magic is just not going to happen in any competitive scene, as this will just get completely shut down by Seraphon, Lumineth, Nagash/Arkhan and will be tough against basically anyone else with the slightest bonus to unbind.

Points run out so fast and the wound count is low, as many points need to be invested to simply get the decent hammer units into range, without getting destroyed on the way. The lord imperatant is an expensive tax to simply get annihilators to work OK, and the relictor eats up almost 150 pts and a command trait, to sort of reliable get paladin units into combat or Fulminators. Even then, we get an issue with screening units and to deal with that, we need around 400 pts of ranged units as well...

Drakes solve most of these issue on their own warscroll, as well as benefitting so darn much from a single command trait. Once you have a -1 to be wounded trait for ALL monsters boardwide, doubling down on monsters is just so efficient. They fix the issue with poor anti magic, with a 50% magic ignore. They fix the mobility and delivery mechanism issues on their own, with hero phase move+charge. They provide fine ranged damage as well, a big improvement over the dracothian guards. They also fly and get all the monstrous rampage stuff, while they can be put into a hunters of the heartlands themselves. 

This is sort of the book where nothing is greater than the sum of their parts is what I feel  and I keep failing to make any list I am confident in doing better than 3/2 with, with the currently available models...

I seem to agree on most stuff. If and only if translocate stays the same as it is now. I have some fun with my protector blobs untill people know how to handle it by, redeploy/screens. But if translocation get fixed my oldcast is going to be way less strong. Movement 4 protectors not going to conquer the board or lots of battletactics. 

at this point i played 8+ games with the new book. And had some fun but also missing flavor and depth. Also thinking of building a new army cause of it. I got zero interest in going dragon style like most players. As i feel its just waiting for the pointnerf to come and slap us. 

Thing im missing the most if synergie with heroes. Or fun tricks to do. Interesting mixes with city's is not something we have right now but might get in the future. 

Starving for points and units.

Edit: everytime i see another SCE player trying to make a list work i still feel kind of proud that we be trying to find interesting stuff. 

Edited by Juicy
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29 minutes ago, SugarWaterPurple said:

What is everyone's opinion of the Knight Judicator?  

I think it's a fairly strong warscroll burdened with a too high points cost. Solid damage and range, aoe mortals, and gryphhounds are good for deepstrikers. But it's cost is just too much, like many of our other heros.

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