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Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors


PJetski
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20 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Her 4+ Ward loses a lot of value if she is near Gardus, her damage is lackluster, and if she leaves the castle to contest objectives or try to finish off a weakened enemy then you will move out of revive range which is the main reason she is there. 

If she was 280 or even still 300 points like she was in Dominion I would consider using her over a Tauralon. As it stands, the Tauralon has a lot more utility (and MONSTER for Battle Tactics) and running both doesn't seem prudent.

I can see Yndrasta working if you run Knights Excelsior with 2x5 Retributors as part of your Battleline.

TIL Yndrasta's points went up for... ??? Isn't Bastian 300 flat himself?!?

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Just now, Requizen said:

Yeah @PJetski the Hallowstrike you posted previously is probably a very solid way to wiggle it right now, basically our 3.0 incarnation of Aetherstrike/Anvilstrike. The more things change...

Well with that squared away, time to work on other, non-Dragon lists. 

It's funny that the 2017 version of the list also had Protectors in it, so we've come full circle. 

Aside from drakes, I've been experimenting with:

  • Ordinator + 4x Ballista + 2x Gunhauler
  • 15 Protector translocation alpha tar pit
  • Krondys + Starseer shredding armor with their spells then using Crossbows
  • 2x6 Castigators with 2x3 Evocats
  • Knights Excelsior with Yndrasta and MSU Retributors
  • 2x6 Annihilators with Grandhammers and Relictor + Imperatant to double charge turn 1 (I call this the Grand Slam)
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2 minutes ago, PJetski said:

It's funny that the 2017 version of the list also had Protectors in it, so we've come full circle. 

Aside from drakes, I've been experimenting with:

  • Ordinator + 4x Ballista + 2x Gunhauler
  • 15 Protector translocation alpha tar pit
  • Krondys + Starseer shredding armor with their spells then using Crossbows
  • 2x6 Castigators with 2x3 Evocats
  • Knights Excelsior with Yndrasta and MSU Retributors
  • 2x6 Annihilators with Grandhammers and Relictor + Imperatant to double charge turn 1 (I call this the Grand Slam)

i'm really curious about the 2x6 castigators and 2x3 evocats, how did it went?
Also i love the knight excelsior with MSU retributors, i might try this as well :)

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1 minute ago, jeanfluflu said:

i'm really curious about the 2x6 castigators and 2x3 evocats, how did it went?
Also i love the knight excelsior with MSU retributors, i might try this as well :)

Haven't done any playtesting yet, all just theoretical so far so take it with a grain of salt

Retributors are fun because they're kinda like Vindictors (both 3+ save battleline with 5 models on 40mm bases), but Retributors cost 80% more, have 50% more wounds, and deal ~300% more damage.

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7 minutes ago, PJetski said:

It's funny that the 2017 version of the list also had Protectors in it, so we've come full circle. 

Aside from drakes, I've been experimenting with:

  • Ordinator + 4x Ballista + 2x Gunhauler
  • 15 Protector translocation alpha tar pit
  • Krondys + Starseer shredding armor with their spells then using Crossbows
  • 2x6 Castigators with 2x3 Evocats
  • Knights Excelsior with Yndrasta and MSU Retributors
  • 2x6 Annihilators with Grandhammers and Relictor + Imperatant to double charge turn 1 (I call this the Grand Slam)

I'd be interested in chatting Ordinator bombs, are you using it as a Scions list and dropping them midfield as a battery? 

I want to try and figure out some sort of MSU shooting list that plays a spread out, target saturation game, but all our shooting units have gotten so expensive and kind of need support to reach their full potential. 

I also want to try non-Stormguard Drake style Herohammer with some combination Stardrake, Tauralon, Prime, Krondys/Karazai, mounted Heroes, etc. Not sure if there's a good way to smoosh those together but could be fun.

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7 minutes ago, Requizen said:

I'd be interested in chatting Ordinator bombs, are you using it as a Scions list and dropping them midfield as a battery? 

I want to try and figure out some sort of MSU shooting list that plays a spread out, target saturation game, but all our shooting units have gotten so expensive and kind of need support to reach their full potential. 

I also want to try non-Stormguard Drake style Herohammer with some combination Stardrake, Tauralon, Prime, Krondys/Karazai, mounted Heroes, etc. Not sure if there's a good way to smoosh those together but could be fun.

 Yup drop the Ordinator + Ballistas as a nest and teleport the Gunhaulers up to meet them. I was thinking of combining it with a unit of 6 Grandhammers (can play KE to make them battleline and save some points) or maybe something fast like Chariots, Concussors, or Evocats (can buff the ballista if you need to castle) and filling out a cheap battleline.

Castigators are surprisingly useful in this edition. Not sure they're good enough to make that playstyle viable, though.

If you're doing Herohammer you should try a Saintly Assault list with Karazai. Giving him +1 to each attack is pretty juicy. Combo Cycle of the Storm, Blaze of Glory, and the Final Thunderstrike holy command to make Karazai roll 38 dice and deal mortals on 5+ when he dies xD

Edited by PJetski
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7 minutes ago, Requizen said:

I'd be interested in chatting Ordinator bombs, are you using it as a Scions list and dropping them midfield as a battery? 

I want to try and figure out some sort of MSU shooting list that plays a spread out, target saturation game, but all our shooting units have gotten so expensive and kind of need support to reach their full potential. 

I also want to try non-Stormguard Drake style Herohammer with some combination Stardrake, Tauralon, Prime, Krondys/Karazai, mounted Heroes, etc. Not sure if there's a good way to smoosh those together but could be fun.

An avenger build certainly looks great, something like:

Krondys
Knight draconis
celestant prime

2 stormdrakes
2 stormdrakes
3 prosecutors javelin
3 prosecutors javelin

All in tempest lords to make prosecutors battleline and get the bonus on charge shenanigan (even though we don't need this).
I believe we are already short on points and we can't really commit to a full monster build without loosing a lot of board control but it is worth the try :).

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2 hours ago, jeanfluflu said:

Yndrasta is like 5pts less than the prime who clearly fight in another category.

First you have the Rend 3 att, then the auto 12" charge each turn and the D3MW blast that can easily target hidden heroes and higly valuable targets.
It's a shame because you want to make her combo with paladins units but these builds will usually be slow and the prime compensate for that as he can operate in solo missions while you want yndrasta to stay with the crowd.

I agree, she's a little bit overpriced for what she does but again this is not something really damaging as it can change next season with a couple of points adjustments.

I don't think the Prime is in another League from Yndrasta. I think all three of the ~300 point heroes serve different purposes.

Prime is a cruise missile you can send anywhere, but want to hold out as long as possible to cash in one. 

Bastian is a Force Multiplier and terrifying melee threat (Closest we have to Gotrek), but slow and susceptible to screens if he isn't supporting other units. He also offers some bonus mortal wounds against behemoths. Strangely he isn't good at dueling God models like Gotrek, as he has like 1/3 the burst and can only score full heals by killing models. Without the max 1 damager per suffered wound, he is also less tanky against them.

Yndrasta is a tanky attrition support hero with huge mobility and medium damage output. Her spear can effectively serve the same purpose as Bastian's Lightning, except hers is better at sniping weak support heroes or finishing off wounded units, and less good against super-heavies with tons of defenses. 

 

Edited by Sleepa
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2 hours ago, PJetski said:

 

  • Yndrasta sadly isn't worth her points, even in this optimal castle setup

I strongly disagree with this. She's a super tanky support hero with good but not great damage output. I'm sad she went up 20 points for no reason, but I'm still convinced her optimal place in our tome right now is in Knights Excelsior, reviving expensive Paladins every turn and being a huge pain in the butt for our opponents. She's still a useful piece in other hosts, but maybe not optimal.

2 hours ago, Requizen said:

But I disagree that she's not worth her points - ignoring Battleshock, bringing back units, and then being a fast, reasonably damaging hero isn't bad. She's not amazing at either being a support or a true hammer, but she splits the difference pretty nicely imo. I'd at least like to try her out, haven't even gotten a single game since Dominion 😫

Agreed. People are sleeping on her, I think. The points increase is a big part of why, but she's also not supposed to be deleting monsters in one shot like the Prime is, and I think that disappointed a lot of people. She's good in combat, lives forever, brings back models for free, and makes her friends ignore battleshock. That's worth it to me!

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34 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

I strongly disagree with this. She's a super tanky support hero with good but not great damage output. I'm sad she went up 20 points for no reason, but I'm still convinced her optimal place in our tome right now is in Knights Excelsior, reviving expensive Paladins every turn and being a huge pain in the butt for our opponents. She's still a useful piece in other hosts, but maybe not optimal.

Seems about right, I think we are OK on the named character front, although there are still some dishonorable mentions in there. The Prime, Yndrasta and Bastian are interesting choices which shines with different builds. The most specialized happens to be Yndrasta, as she really wants to be in the thick of it with the infantry, reviving annihilators and paladins, making them unbreakable and priming them to kill monsters but engaging and cripping them.

Bastian is less reliant on being near anyone, his ranged ability is long range, and his command is good because it is board wide, so he can easily command faster units, like dracoths, chariots, drakes etc. while he sets of to do his own thing, He will rarely be a directly bad choice for any build I think.

Celestant Prime is just good, but does not force multiply at all anymore, he is simply a rocket with a name. He will be very popular as an ally, as he does what he did before, just way better now with the ward, only losing bravery buff/debuff stuff, which is just fine compared to the massive increase in staying power he got. It can not be underestimated what effect he has on a game plan, that this dude with 8w and 4+ ward in turn 2 can teleport down and guarantee a 12" charge if needed, having 5 attacks, with all out attack on 2+/2+/rend 3/dmg 3. He might not one shot behemots or god characters, but he will cripple most he touches and force a lot of plays.

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3 hours ago, PJetski said:

 

If you're doing Herohammer you should try a Saintly Assault list with Karazai. Giving him +1 to each attack is pretty juicy. Combo Cycle of the Storm, Blaze of Glory, and the Final Thunderstrike holy command to make Karazai roll 38 dice and deal mortals on 5+ when he dies xD

I'm pretty sure Cycle of the Storm got changed so it no longer double combos with slain model effects. So no big explosion when Karazai dies.

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3 minutes ago, Champasaur said:

I'm pretty sure Cycle of the Storm got changed so it no longer double combos with slain model effects. So no big explosion when Karazai dies.

Both abilities activate at the same time (when a model is slain) and you control both effects so you can choose which order they are resolved.

image.png.c1d3d19a48eec100e5e6a423cc419993.png

image.png.7913bb37a1cb0a648adc9427a35c5b52.png

Resolve Blaze of Glory first, then resolve Cycle of the Storm.

The Blaze of Glory mortal wounds occur at the end of the phase and not when the model is removed, so they still go off even if the model is saved with Cycle of the Storm.

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3 hours ago, Sleepa said:

I don't think the Prime is in another League from Yndrasta. I think all three of the ~300 point heroes serve different purposes.

Prime is a cruise missile you can send anywhere, but want to hold out as long as possible to cash in one. 

Bastian is a Force Multiplier and terrifying melee threat (Closest we have to Gotrek), but slow and susceptible to screens if he isn't supporting other units. He also offers some bonus mortal wounds against behemoths. Strangely he isn't good at dueling God models like Gotrek, as he has like 1/3 the burst and can only score full heals by killing models. Without the max 1 damager per suffered wound, he is also less tanky against them.

Yndrasta is a tanky attrition support hero with huge mobility and medium damage output. Her spear can effectively serve the same purpose as Bastian's Lightning, except hers is better at sniping weak support heroes or finishing off wounded units, and less good against super-heavies with tons of defenses. 

 

I get what you mean and i agree with most of what you say.
But i think that i would rather pay Yndrasta less and sacrifice her killing profile.
She want to do two things at the same time and it makes her loose a bit of interest in my opinion, but it may be because i have a certain vision of the game.

If you want to use her ability you'll stick her in the middle of your army but you will most likely not use her melee stats you paid for, it works the other way arround.
If she had more consistent shooting damage i'll probably like her more as she can do damages and be a buffing presence at the same time (not sacrifying any of these two aspects in a turn).

That's the reason i prefer the Prime, for his price he's good at one role, you pay the points for something specific which is direct and effective.

It's easier to me to grasp the game this way (tank/dps/support categories) the game, his rules and the layers of extra complexity can be overwhelming sometimes and i don't loose focus when each of my pieces have a specific role set up in advance and designed for it.

Edited by jeanfluflu
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1 hour ago, PJetski said:

Both abilities activate at the same time (when a model is slain) and you control both effects so you can choose which order they are resolved.

image.png.c1d3d19a48eec100e5e6a423cc419993.png

image.png.7913bb37a1cb0a648adc9427a35c5b52.png

Resolve Blaze of Glory first, then resolve Cycle of the Storm.

The Blaze of Glory mortal wounds occur at the end of the phase and not when the model is removed, so they still go off even if the model is saved with Cycle of the Storm.

Is that true?

I understand that both have the same conditional "if a friendly model is slain...", but their timing seems to be incompatible. Blaze of Glory triggers "before removing that model" but Cycle of the Storms remove that trigger with "instead of removing that model from play...". 

 

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11 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

Any thoughts on COS allies? I know Iceheart Phoenix with Lord was a big choice. Any foot wizards or troops we should keep our eye on?

Anything that benefits from Taularons +1 to hit is nice. Phoenix guard, handgunners, irondrakes, sisters of the watch.
 

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29 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Is that true?

I understand that both have the same conditional "if a friendly model is slain...", but their timing seems to be incompatible. Blaze of Glory triggers "before removing that model" but Cycle of the Storms remove that trigger with "instead of removing that model from play...". 

 

The timing of their effects are not compatible but it doesnt matter because they trigger at the same time (when the model is slain) and you resolve them separately. Resolve Blaze, then resolve Cycle.

If you resolve Cycle first then it won't work 

edit: Check the Core Rules 1.6.2 "If the effects of two or more abilities would be applied at the same in a turn, the player whose turn is taking place applies of their abilities first, one at a time, in the order they desire" (emphasis mine)

Edited by PJetski
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28 minutes ago, PJetski said:

The timing of their effects are not compatible but it doesnt matter because they trigger at the same time (when the model is slain) and you resolve them separately. Resolve Blaze, then resolve Cycle.

If you resolve Cycle first then it won't work 

edit: Check the Core Rules 1.6.2 "If the effects of two or more abilities would be applied at the same in a turn, the player whose turn is taking place applies of their abilities first, one at a time, in the order they desire" (emphasis mine)

I think the nuance here that @Beliman was referring to is that he was implying these might not be simultaneous:

E.g. Cycle is triggered to prevent you removing the model, instead of removing it you end up resolving Cycle, and Blaze happens after you have already made the decision to remove the model / failed to prevent its removal. Thus if you Cycled, you don't get to Blaze, and if you are at the trigger point of Blaze, you are too late to Cycle. At least that is the argument as I understand it, given the wording is not identical and may or may not be intended to be simultaneous. (Put differently, one says "before removing" and the other says "instead of removing", so the legalistic argument would be that if you did something instead of removing it, there was never a moment directly before its removal because the removal never happened)

I have no strong opinion either way, to be honest, but I think this is unclear thanks to GW's laxness with timing triggers and should be cleared up with an FAQ.

Edited by Reinholt
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12 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

I think the nuance here that @Beliman was referring to is that he was implying these might not be simultaneous:

E.g. Cycle is triggered to prevent you removing the model, instead of removing it you end up resolving Cycle, and Blaze happens after you have already made the decision to remove the model / failed to prevent its removal. Thus if you Cycled, you don't get to Blaze, and if you are at the trigger point of Blaze, you are too late to Cycle. At least that is the argument as I understand it, given the wording is not identical and may or may not be intended to be simultaneous. (Put differently, one says "before removing" and the other says "instead of removing", so the legalistic argument would be that if you did something instead of removing it, there was never a moment directly before its removal because the removal never happened)

I have no strong opinion either way, to be honest, but I think this is unclear thanks to GW's laxness with timing triggers and should be cleared up with an FAQ.

I argue that the trigger is "when the model is slain".

However, you could argue that the trigger is "removing the model from play". In that case, Blaze triggers before the model is removed and Cycle triggers when the model would be removed. Since they do not share an exact timing on the trigger get resolved in a specific order. Blaze triggers before removal, is fully resolved, and then you try to remove the model. At this point Cycle triggers, prevents the removal and heals a wound.

Then you go about allocating wounds as normal, triggering a second death and therefore another Blaze of Glory. You can even repeat this if you have multiple Cycles. At the end of the phase mortal wounds are dealt by each Blaze of Glory. 

Regardless of which trigger you argue, it still works the way I'm describing. They could have easily written in all sorts of limitations, like "the first time this model dies" or having the mortal wounds dealt when the model is removed rather than at the end of the phase. It seems like they went out of their way to ensure this combo works.

Edited by PJetski
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Been playing around a bit, trying to write lists (apart from the obvious too-cool-to-skip all drake list) and I've come up with this (admittedly with a lot of inspiration from some of you here :))


Knights Excelsior stormhost
Holy Commands: Thunderbolt Volley, Unleash Thy Hatred
Warlord battalion
Lord-Relictor - General, High Priest, Translocation, Amulet of Destiny
Lord-Imperatant
Yndrasta
10x Judicators
Hunters of the Heartlands battalion
6x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers
6x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers

Idea is to start with both Annihilator units and the Lord-Relictor in the sky, have Yndrasta run up and meet them turn 1 and leave the Judicators on backfield objectives.
Not a lot of bodies to contest objectives but with double tapping the Judicators and dropping down the Annihilators the hope is to take out the biggest threats of the enemy very early on.

Thoughts would be appreciated :)

Edited by Memnoch
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