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Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors


PJetski
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Okay... here's a take that I'm not sure about so I am interested to hear thoughts.

The general consensus on the ballista that I have seen is that it's pretty decent, and that castigators are still hot garbage. Is this solely down to the extended range of the long range ballista shot? A unit of castigators using the improved power for -2 rend are dealing on average more damage in almost every situation than either ballista profile. The only times I've found that the long range profile beats out the castigators' average is when you roll a 5 or 6 for damage, or have a +1 to hit and roll a 4 or more for damage, and even then only against the strong saves, against weaker/no save units, the castigator average still beats out the ballista's best.

I am aware that Castigators have literally half the range, and 2/3 the wounds of a ballista and I can only imagine this is it - but when people are making statements like ballistae being excellent and castigators being garbage, what use cases are yall seeing for the ballista? In the old tome the best way to use them was definitely drop within 18 and pump out hits from there. I'm imagining the new use case is more like a sniper? But do they really have enough output to justify a couple of them and support to take out a single 5 or 6 wound hero? Especially when Longstrikes exist.

My #1 hope for this book was that Castigators would be good, and I am definitely biased in their favour. Please point out things I have missed.

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40 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Any reason for having 20 vindictors other then just pure greed because they are dirt cheap right now?

the list I am thinking of trying first has 40 so I just bought 15 more (still cheap yes) and count on converting 10 liberators with the spare spears :D

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1 hour ago, Dogmantra said:

Okay... here's a take that I'm not sure about so I am interested to hear thoughts.

The general consensus on the ballista that I have seen is that it's pretty decent, and that castigators are still hot garbage. Is this solely down to the extended range of the long range ballista shot? A unit of castigators using the improved power for -2 rend are dealing on average more damage in almost every situation than either ballista profile. The only times I've found that the long range profile beats out the castigators' average is when you roll a 5 or 6 for damage, or have a +1 to hit and roll a 4 or more for damage, and even then only against the strong saves, against weaker/no save units, the castigator average still beats out the ballista's best.

I am aware that Castigators have literally half the range, and 2/3 the wounds of a ballista and I can only imagine this is it - but when people are making statements like ballistae being excellent and castigators being garbage, what use cases are yall seeing for the ballista? In the old tome the best way to use them was definitely drop within 18 and pump out hits from there. I'm imagining the new use case is more like a sniper? But do they really have enough output to justify a couple of them and support to take out a single 5 or 6 wound hero? Especially when Longstrikes exist.

My #1 hope for this book was that Castigators would be good, and I am definitely biased in their favour. Please point out things I have missed.

Ballistae have their own niche as a Rend-3 D6 shot that can also rapid fire 2D6 with lower accuracy sometimes as needed

Castigators should instead be compared to Judicators/Raptors instead, and in that comparison they are quite lacking due to range and lack of mortal wounds.

3 hours ago, Nizrah said:

Im right that we loose every source of reroll 1 to hit? 

No, we still have re-roll hit1 from the Divine Light prayer

Allies could be a potential source of re-roll hit1/wound1. I'll be looking over the other order battletomes to see if I can find some

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5 minutes ago, The World Tree said:

Anyone got a link to pics of the new book so I can play a test game? It would be awful if you private messaged me a link... (I've seen the preview vids)

There was a imgur album but it was in terrible quality. Best quality was in previev video from Sprues&Brews

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Hey all,

I am looking for advice on how to round out my SCE army. It is currently the contents of Dominion a unit of easy to build Sequitors and a Knight-Incantor this leaves me with 315 points. Here are the things I am thinking of adding to round out the list but I am open to other suggestions:

Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos: I obviously am a huge fan of the model and I can use him as a more generic hero option or even as a mighty king for Tabletop RPGS. The biggest drawbacks here are from the hobby side as he is a single model and also that he might lock me to Hammers of Sigmar giving me less option to play around with lists. 

2x Celestar Ballista: Having a pair of warmachines will add some sorely needed shooting to my list open up a core battalion and give a more varied playstyle relative to my close combat oriented Ogor Mawtribess and Slaves To Darkness armies. Alternatively I could add one and a Lord Ordinator.

Chariot and Cheap Unit: I love the chariot model and I want my army to avoid traditional cavalry to create some diversity between my current armies. This give me a little more speed and a really cool unit that ties to my recent interests in Bronze Age history.

Stormdrake Guard/Knight Draconis: Possibly the coolest option and gives a bit of variety as I can run this as either a character or a unit and they can fulfil the roll of a fast attack option and give further support to Yndrasta. The drawbacks here are the fact that I do not have the points to really use both a hero and unit loosing out on some great synergies. 

Some other potential options I have been considering include a centre piece, paladins or other ranged units. 

But I am open to any other suggestions but my goal right now is just to reach 2000 points and I will refine my list and collection at a later point. Namely I want all my armies to be at the same playable point level before adding additional units... meaning I will invariably get Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos... 😅

Edited by Neverchosen
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31 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

There was a imgur album but it was in terrible quality. Best quality was in previev video from Sprues&Brews

Aye, I've watched a fair few reviews - very excited for my copy to arrive Saturday. Just wanted access to screenshots so that I could peruse at my leisure, on the toilet and whatnot. 

On that note, I've been thinking about this release. The rules and warscrolls aren't leaks. Once the influencers have their copies from GW then there aren't really anymore leaks or unofficial pics and they should be allowed here. All people are doing is taking screenshots of GW approved influencer reviews (which are clearly done in a way to allow screenshots), who are revealing the info in a manner GW are happy with. 

Anywho, was just thinking...

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I have read several times the sequitors' warscroll and, RAW, I don't see any requirement of any of them carrying shields for them to get the 5+ ward. Am I right to think you could channel the shields even if you were left with only sequitors carrying greatmaces?

Edited by Yor
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36 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Ballistae have their own niche as a Rend-3 D6 shot that can also rapid fire 2D6 with lower accuracy sometimes as needed

Castigators should instead be compared to Judicators/Raptors instead, and in that comparison they are quite lacking due to range and lack of mortal wounds.

Castigators and Ballistae are the closest in terms of cost, and the most disparate in terms of how people seem to feel about them which is why I am comparing them. I am not going to disagree that Judicators and Raptors are almost certainly better value for shooting because of everything you said (even at double the points), I'm just confused as to what the role of the Ballista is supposed to be?

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the niche for the Ballista is that it has a high rend shot but can occasionally switch profiles to something better and more consistent against enemies with worse saves. That's very similar to Castigators who can either have -2 rend or +1 to hit (i.e. high-ish rend or something more consistent against enemies for whom, -2 is unnecessary), who also mathematically do more damage on average than the Ballista with either profile.

From what I can see, the Ballista has two things going for it over Castigators - firstly the 36" range, and secondly that it's a bit more swingy than Castigators, d6 damage or 2d6 shots will hit the high end more often than 3d3+1 shots, but then equally you're going to hit the low end more often too so it's a gamble. The range is the major advantage, hence my original question - what is the use case you're seeing for the Ballista at that range? If Castigators are hot garbage, then what makes the Ballista which only has an advantage in range, so much better? I can understand saying it's a bit better because of the range (much much easier to keep something safe from 36" away, no disagreements there!) but rating it so much better has me baffled. Surely you're better off just taking Longstrikes or Judicators if output at long range is the important part?

1 minute ago, Yor said:

I have read several times the Sequitors' warscroll and, RAW, I don't see any requirement of any of them carrying shields for them to be able to channel power to get the 5+ ward. Am I right to think you could channel the shields even if you were left with sequitors only carrying greatmaces?

Yeah you could. I suppose you could infer that because you're saying they're channeling power into their shields that they are supposed to still have shields to channel into, but that's definitely stretching it. RAW seems pretty clear that you can just get the ward without needing to actually have shields.

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1 hour ago, Dogmantra said:

Castigators and Ballistae are the closest in terms of cost, and the most disparate in terms of how people seem to feel about them which is why I am comparing them. I am not going to disagree that Judicators and Raptors are almost certainly better value for shooting because of everything you said (even at double the points), I'm just confused as to what the role of the Ballista is supposed to be?

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the niche for the Ballista is that it has a high rend shot but can occasionally switch profiles to something better and more consistent against enemies with worse saves. That's very similar to Castigators who can either have -2 rend or +1 to hit (i.e. high-ish rend or something more consistent against enemies for whom, -2 is unnecessary), who also mathematically do more damage on average than the Ballista with either profile.

From what I can see, the Ballista has two things going for it over Castigators - firstly the 36" range, and secondly that it's a bit more swingy than Castigators, d6 damage or 2d6 shots will hit the high end more often than 3d3+1 shots, but then equally you're going to hit the low end more often too so it's a gamble. The range is the major advantage, hence my original question - what is the use case you're seeing for the Ballista at that range? If Castigators are hot garbage, then what makes the Ballista which only has an advantage in range, so much better? I can understand saying it's a bit better because of the range (much much easier to keep something safe from 36" away, no disagreements there!) but rating it so much better has me baffled. Surely you're better off just taking Longstrikes or Judicators if output at long range is the important part?

I don't think they are hot garbage. The problem with Castigators is that they don't particularly excel at anything - they don't have a specific niche. 

Castigators are more efficient than Ballista at 18" but don't have the versatility of switching to a 36" Rend-3 shot. Ballista are also the kind of unit that you want to bring in multiples because of the way they get buffed by an Ordinator, which doesn't leave a lot of room for Castigators on top of all that.

6 Castigators are better than 5 Bow Judicators... but you don't bring 5 Bow Judicators, you bring 10-15 and double tap them to delete something from 24" away on the first turn. Castigators can't do that.

Castigators could be useful if there was some way to make them battleline, like if a Lord-Ordinator was your general. Maybe I'm wrong and there's some all-in shooting list that could use them well, but I don't see those lists as a viable option for trying to go 5-0 consistently.

If we ever enter a DAEMON meta again Castigators shoot right up to S tier because they deal double damage to those. I'm working on a podcast right now and have moved Castigators up a few spots in the tier list after giving them more thought over the past few days.

Edited by PJetski
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13 minutes ago, PJetski said:

6 Castigators are better than 5 Bow Judicators... but you don't bring 5 Bow Judicators, you bring 10-15 and double tap them to delete something from 24" away on the first turn. Castigators can't do that.

Castigators could be useful if there was some way to make them battleline, like if a Lord-Ordinator was your general. Maybe I'm wrong and there's some all-in shooting list that could use them well, but I don't see those lists as a viable option for trying to go 5-0 consistently.

Castigators have always been a reasonable pick for MSU shooting spam, dropping groups of 3 around the board for coverage and target saturation is a solid use for them. It's just that double tapping CAs (both old and new) and other builds have been better. 

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I'm actually pretty hyped on Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows now. I had previous been running a min squad for horde removal, but they seem like something that could output a truly terrifying volume of firepower. Probably one of our best answers to something like Gotrek.

As an aside. I am tempted to put together a Double Dragon meme list.
Do you guys think a list with the following would have legs?

1x Knight Draconis - General for the -1 Wound Command Trait
1x Krondys
1x Karazai

1x2 Stormdrake Guard
2x5 Vindictors 

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2 minutes ago, Sleepa said:

I'm actually pretty hyped on Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows now. I had previous been running a min squad for horde removal, but they seem like something that could output a truly terrifying volume of firepower. Probably one of our best answers to something like Gotrek.

As an aside. I am tempted to put together a Double Dragon meme list.
Do you guys think a list with the following would have legs?

1x Knight Draconis - General for the -1 Wound Command Trait
1x Krondys
1x Karazai

1x2 Stormdrake Guard
2x5 Vindictors 

Interesting idea, I just do not think Karazai will be able to do the work of 4 Stormdrakes. Even more so, removing Karazai and the 2x5 vindictors is the equal to 3x2 stormdrakes instead, that is just way more wounds, speed and board presence. I just do not think 2 small vindictor units and Karazai can manage to put in the same work as 3 units of 2 stormdrakes can.

This is for maximizing competitive lists though, otherwise go for it, it is by no means weak or unplayable. The big question now if going to events though is if you can handle Mega Gargants, and I do not think this list got the oomph to take them down relaibly without taking too much damage in return.

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hi, i've recently started playing warhammer and i desperately need advice on which list is best to play for new stormcasts, for the moment i was thinking about this:

 

Cartalos 300

Lord-relictor 145

Vindictors x5 130

Vindictors x5 130

Judicators x10 400

Chariot 165

Annhichilator wGreathammer x6 480

Retributors x5 235

ToT: 1985/2000p

Thx for helping at all ^^

 

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6 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

This is for maximizing competitive lists though, otherwise go for it, it is by no means weak or unplayable. The big question now if going to events though is if you can handle Mega Gargants, and I do not think this list got the oomph to take them down relaibly without taking too much damage in return.

On that note; do you guys think the sons of Dracothian will be on Mega bases? Are megas on the same base as a Cabbage?

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1 minute ago, Mark8 said:

hi, i've recently started playing warhammer and i desperately need advice on which list is best to play for new stormcasts, for the moment i was thinking about this:

 

Cartalos 300

Lord-relictor 145

Vindictors x5 130

Vindictors x5 130

Judicators x10 400

Chariot 165

Annhichilator wGreathammer x6 480

Retributors x5 235

ToT: 1985/2000p

Thx for helping at all ^^

 

Well it's too early for there to even be a best list (Except for as many Stormdrake Guard as you can fit, because that warscroll is bent AF for the cost)

But for what you have right there I'd for sure want a Lord Imperitant to give your Annihilators the 7" Scions deployment instead of 9". Is the Relictor in your list to Translocate something specific? Like the Judicators? If you're Deepstriking both Paladin units, you probably don't need the Relictor for Translocate (Although let's be honest; he's one of our top 3 leaders and will always be good)

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4 hours ago, Nizrah said:

Bastian
Relictor 
3x 10 Vindicators 
6 Vanguard Raptors
2 Drakeguard 
1990

 

I am thinking of something like this, but with modells i already own (Except for Bastian of course):

Bastian

Lord Relictor

10x Liberators

10x Liberators

10x Liberators

10x Judicators

4x Concussors

Edited by Archibald
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15 minutes ago, Archibald said:

I am thinking of something like this, but with modells i already own (Except for Bastian of course):

Bastian

Lord Relictor

10x Liberators

10x Liberators

10x Liberators

10x Judicators

4x Concussors

You have too many reinforced units, I think. You can only reinforce 4 times in 2k points and you seem to have done 5.

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