Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[Lucur]

13 hours ago, Volkmair said:

So you can declare the rule order Lord-Imperatant deploys using Scions of the Storm > Lord-Imperatant uses Guided by Lightning on Annihilators > Annihilators deploy using Scions of the Storm and the 'if any friendly units with this ability are on the battlefield' requirement for Guided by Lightning checks when it resolves and isn't a requirement for you to declare the rule in the first place then?

As @Dogmantra said above, there is no simultaneous resolving of effects (neither is there a stack mechanic like MTG has). Your turn, your order for abilities with the same timing. The effect of the Lord Important happens as he's on the battlefield, as long as you chose to place him before the Annihilators.

[Volkmair]

21 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

There's no separate "declaration" part of resolving a rule, you just do what it says when you are allowed to, you only care about the game state at the moment you use the rule.

It's the end of the move phase, you can now do anything you want that happens at the end of the move phase. Remember that nothing in AoS happens simultaneously, anything with the same timing that would happen simultanously actually resolves one thing after another, in an order chosen by the player.

First you use Scions of the Storm to drop the Lord Imperatant. Then you choose to drop the Annihilators. Because the Lord Imperatant is on the board when you choose to drop the Annihilators, you can make use of Guided by Lightning.

 

8 hours ago, Lucur said:

As @Dogmantra said above, there is no simultaneous resolving of effects (neither is there a stack mechanic like MTG has). Your turn, your order for abilities with the same timing. The effect of the Lord Important happens as he's on the battlefield, as long as you chose to place him before the Annihilators.

 

Fair enough, guess I'm just used to rulesets that aren't as loose as AoS as to when things happen within a turn.

[Dogmantra]

4 hours ago, Volkmair said:

Fair enough, guess I'm just used to rulesets that aren't as loose as AoS as to when things happen within a turn.

It might help to think of the start of and end of each phase as a separate sub-phase rather than a single point in time. It's totally intuitive that during the main movement phase you move one unit and fully resolve it, then choose to move another, and can make use of the space vacated by the first. Or in the main hero phase you can choose a spell or ability, fully resolve it, and then choose what to do next, perhaps making use of the change in board state (maybe you translocated a wizard who is now in range to cast a spell?).

If you think of "end of move phase" as its own little phase that happens after the move phase proper, then you can apply this exact same thought process and suddenly everything makes intuitive sense.

[Dogmantra]

Sequitor observation: after a casual games day, I think sequitors get a bad rap. I don't think they're necessarily worth the extra points over Libs or Vindictors if you're going full tryhard, but a block of 10 isn't the worst thing to run imo. Bring 5 greatmaces and deploy 7 models in front (including all greatmaces), 3 in the back, or if you want to be really cautious, 6 in the front, 4 in the back (there are edge cases where 7/3 does lose you a single model to coherency, but the big thing here is you don't really care that much about the regular weapon Sequitors.

11 attacks, 3+/3+/-1/2 hits surprisingly hard, although of course Vindictors can do about the same output with 21 attacks 3+/3+/-1/1, MWs on 6s. The benefit comes in the Sequitors being actually pretty tanky. 4+/5++ save is really nice, and it sucks to not have the 3+ of the Vindictors, but the 5++ ward makes up for it, and the ability to take exploding 6s to hit instead of the ward if you're against real unthreatening chaff is a nice little bonus.

The other teeny tiny upside they have is that this specific list I was trying to squeeze into one drop, so there's not much reason not to upgrade from Liberators because taking another unit would put me over the edge to two drops. But that's extremely minor.

So yeah, I don't think they're the best battleline option, I don't think they're even necessarily all that good as a battleline option, but I think they aren't total garbage like they're sometimes made out to be.

 

The other upside is of course that they have the coolest models, and they are not holding their shields at useless goofy angles like half the vindictor sculpts.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Dogmantra

[Marcvs]

4 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

Sequitor observation: after a casual games day, I think sequitors get a bad rap. I don't think they're necessarily worth the extra points over Libs or Vindictors if you're going full tryhard, but a block of 10 isn't the worst thing to run imo. Bring 5 greatmaces and deploy 7 models in front (including all greatmaces), 3 in the back, or if you want to be really cautious, 6 in the front, 4 in the back (there are edge cases where 7/3 does lose you a single model to coherency, but the big thing here is you don't really care that much about the regular weapon Sequitors.

11 attacks, 3+/3+/-1/2 hits surprisingly hard, although of course Vindictors can do about the same output with 21 attacks 3+/3+/-1/1, MWs on 6s. The benefit comes in the Sequitors being actually pretty tanky. 4+/5++ save is really nice, and it sucks to not have the 3+ of the Vindictors, but the 5++ ward makes up for it, and the ability to take exploding 6s to hit instead of the ward if you're against real unthreatening chaff is a nice little bonus.

The other teeny tiny upside they have is that this specific list I was trying to squeeze into one drop, so there's not much reason not to upgrade from Liberators because taking another unit would put me over the edge to two drops. But that's extremely minor.

So yeah, I don't think they're the best battleline option, I don't think they're even necessarily all that good as a battleline option, but I think they aren't total garbage like they're sometimes made out to be.

 

The other upside is of course that they have the coolest models, and they are not holding their shields at useless goofy angles like half the vindictor sculpts.

+1 for sequitors in casual settings. 10 of them buffed by vandus were a real blender in my games Vs clubmates, and MSU squads are great solo operators who will win against most other chaff/objective holders. Sometimes I am really happy that, notwithstanding my own interest for the competitive side, my club is very casual so that I can bring literally anything from our battletome

 

[PJetski]

9 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Sequitor observation: after a casual games day, I think sequitors get a bad rap. I don't think they're necessarily worth the extra points over Libs or Vindictors if you're going full tryhard, but a block of 10 isn't the worst thing to run imo. Bring 5 greatmaces and deploy 7 models in front (including all greatmaces), 3 in the back, or if you want to be really cautious, 6 in the front, 4 in the back (there are edge cases where 7/3 does lose you a single model to coherency, but the big thing here is you don't really care that much about the regular weapon Sequitors.

11 attacks, 3+/3+/-1/2 hits surprisingly hard, although of course Vindictors can do about the same output with 21 attacks 3+/3+/-1/1, MWs on 6s. The benefit comes in the Sequitors being actually pretty tanky. 4+/5++ save is really nice, and it sucks to not have the 3+ of the Vindictors, but the 5++ ward makes up for it, and the ability to take exploding 6s to hit instead of the ward if you're against real unthreatening chaff is a nice little bonus.

The other teeny tiny upside they have is that this specific list I was trying to squeeze into one drop, so there's not much reason not to upgrade from Liberators because taking another unit would put me over the edge to two drops. But that's extremely minor.

So yeah, I don't think they're the best battleline option, I don't think they're even necessarily all that good as a battleline option, but I think they aren't total garbage like they're sometimes made out to be.

 

The other upside is of course that they have the coolest models, and they are not holding their shields at useless goofy angles like half the vindictor sculpts.

I think they would be a viable pick at 130pt instead of 145

[Rachmani]

Guys, I‘m in a bit of a dilemma. I wanna paint a bunch of Stormcasts, but if I‘m really honest I can’t stand the oldcast - do however love the new sculpts. Are there any lists or types of lists that rely mostly on a fairly good variety of the new Thunderstrike (so no drake spam  ) and do solid?

I‘m not aiming for tournament achievement here but would prefer to not get slaughtered. 3-2 with the potential to sometimes go 4-1 if I olay well & into the right matchups?

Vindictors and Annihilators are the obvious choice, but what about the rest? Does it have to be all Judicators etc.?

 

P.S. I‘m torn between Hammers because of Bastian and a more satisfying paint scheme but will probably settle for Hammers.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Rachmani

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, Rachmani said:

Guys, I‘m in a bit of a dilemma. I wanna paint a bunch of Stormcasts, but if I‘m really honest I can’t stand the oldcast - do however love the new sculpts. Are there any lists or types of lists that rely mostly on a fairly good variety of the new Thunderstrike (so no drake spam  ) and do solid?

I‘m not aiming for tournament achievement here but would prefer to not get slaughtered. 3-2 with the potential to sometimes go 4-1 if I olay well & into the right matchups?

Vindictors and Annihilators are the obvious choice, but what about the rest? Does it have to be all Judicators etc.?

 

P.S. I‘m torn between Hammers because of Bastian and a more satisfying paint scheme but will probably settle for Hammers.

The main thing you'd miss in a thunderstrike-only army is shooting, which is quite useful to clear screens (notably, with thunderbolt volley) and allow the annihilators to get to the juici targets. The second thing is magic (or anti-magic with the knight incantor). Other than that, you can surely build around the core which you mentioned (vindictors and grand hammer annihilators). Maybe an opportunity for conversions? I am sure I saw someone use thunderstrike bodies and the longstrike crossbows.

As for the paint scheme, you can of course still play with rules for Hammers and use Bastian while painting in a scheme of your choosing, unless you're playing in some super-strict event (Warhammer World, GW tournaments in the US)

[Sylio]

You' ve good shooters with knight Judicator and  vigilors. I like to play 5 vigilors they are incredible to target one enemie and Say "i'm gonna Snap you now". 

Add 2 SDG to tour all thunderstrike ost for projection that's all.

[Archibald]

I now this has been discussed, but i can't find it.

1. Stormdrakeguard: Swords or Lances?

2. Do you think it is an issue if i play my knight draconis as the unit champion of the stormdrakeguard?

[readercolin]

4 hours ago, Archibald said:

I now this has been discussed, but i can't find it.

1. Stormdrakeguard: Swords or Lances?

2. Do you think it is an issue if i play my knight draconis as the unit champion of the stormdrakeguard?

Swords and lances are about even if you expect to charge and stay in combat for 2 combat phases.  If you think you can reliably get charges every turn, then lances are better.  If you expect to sit in combat, swords are better.

Overall, I would go swords every time, but other people have different opinions.

Finally, running the knight Draconis as a unit leader.  If you aren't running any knight Draconis in your list, you are probably fine.  But I wouldn't run one as a unit leader and another as a hero, as that can easily lead to confusion.

Edited January 3, 2022 by readercolin

[Lengthster]

17 hours ago, Rachmani said:

Guys, I‘m in a bit of a dilemma. I wanna paint a bunch of Stormcasts, but if I‘m really honest I can’t stand the oldcast - do however love the new sculpts. Are there any lists or types of lists that rely mostly on a fairly good variety of the new Thunderstrike (so no drake spam  ) and do solid?

I‘m not aiming for tournament achievement here but would prefer to not get slaughtered. 3-2 with the potential to sometimes go 4-1 if I olay well & into the right matchups?

Vindictors and Annihilators are the obvious choice, but what about the rest? Does it have to be all Judicators etc.?

 

P.S. I‘m torn between Hammers because of Bastian and a more satisfying paint scheme but will probably settle for Hammers.

Just paint the scheme you wanna paint, nobody actually cares if you don't match the stormhost colours, especially now that there aren't any generic custom stormhost rules. 

Look into some conversions, I know a some people are just running Vigilors as Judicators, and using the spare swords from that kit can convert Vindictors into Liberators. Knight-Arcanum is perfect as a Knight-Incantor. But I'm sure there's a decent 3-2 list actually running Vigilors and a bunch of Annihilators. 

[Thugmullet]

9 hours ago, readercolin said:

Swords and lances are about even if you expect to charge and stay in combat for 2 combat phases.  If you think you can reliably get charges every turn, then lances are better.  If you expect to sit in combat, swords are better.

Overall, I would go swords every time, but other people have different opinions.

Finally, running the knight Draconis as a unit leader.  If you aren't running any knight Draconis in your list, you are probably fine.  But I wouldn't run one as a unit leader and another as a hero, as that can easily lead to confusion.

Yeah I just magnitized one arm on one of my dragon riders and painted his left shoulder a different colour. When he's the hero I'll just pop on the flaming sword and when he's the unit leader I'll use the normal sword. Easy and I'd doubt anyone would care. As readercolin sorta points out as long as people can tell at a glance they generally don't have a problem.

[Ahzur]

Greetings everyone!

This Christmas I got 2 stormdrakes as a present. I've never intended to run them in my lists, as I'm not a huge fan of spamming them (I know, you can kill me). I usually play the good old 4x fulminators, 6x vanguard-raptors, lord relictor, liberators/vindictors (depending on the points), and filling the rest with Bastian, Yndrasta, Aventis, imperatant + annihilators...

My question is: now that I have these 2 stormdrakes, is there a point to run them as a filler of my core build (replacing something like the annihilators), or they are meant to be used in numbers and with the knight-draconis hero? I think I could make room for 2 drakes + a knight-draconis in my list, but I don't know if this would be efficient or not.

The thing is that with my common build I feel like a sort of a glass cannon, and the drakes could be an anvil I could use.

Thanks!

 

 

[PJetski]

3 hours ago, Ahzur said:

Greetings everyone!

This Christmas I got 2 stormdrakes as a present. I've never intended to run them in my lists, as I'm not a huge fan of spamming them (I know, you can kill me). I usually play the good old 4x fulminators, 6x vanguard-raptors, lord relictor, liberators/vindictors (depending on the points), and filling the rest with Bastian, Yndrasta, Aventis, imperatant + annihilators...

My question is: now that I have these 2 stormdrakes, is there a point to run them as a filler of my core build (replacing something like the annihilators), or they are meant to be used in numbers and with the knight-draconis hero? I think I could make room for 2 drakes + a knight-draconis in my list, but I don't know if this would be efficient or not.

The thing is that with my common build I feel like a sort of a glass cannon, and the drakes could be an anvil I could use.

Thanks!

 

 

2x Stormdrake are a fine addition to many lists - their tremendous speed and MONSTER keyword make them great for scoring extra victory points, supporting charges (both yours and your opponents) with their monstrous rampages, and they deal decent damage to boot.

[Squark]

4 hours ago, Ahzur said:

Greetings everyone!

This Christmas I got 2 stormdrakes as a present. I've never intended to run them in my lists, as I'm not a huge fan of spamming them (I know, you can kill me). I usually play the good old 4x fulminators, 6x vanguard-raptors, lord relictor, liberators/vindictors (depending on the points), and filling the rest with Bastian, Yndrasta, Aventis, imperatant + annihilators...

My question is: now that I have these 2 stormdrakes, is there a point to run them as a filler of my core build (replacing something like the annihilators), or they are meant to be used in numbers and with the knight-draconis hero? I think I could make room for 2 drakes + a knight-draconis in my list, but I don't know if this would be efficient or not.

The thing is that with my common build I feel like a sort of a glass cannon, and the drakes could be an anvil I could use.

Thanks!

 

 

2 Stormdrakes is fine. They're fast, reasonably tough, and can output decent damage. I do not, however, reccomend running a Knight-Draconis alongside a single unit. So much of a Knight-Draconis's power is tied up in his once per game double tap with the breath weapon; with obly 2 SDG, he isn't worth it. Just take one more screen of Liberators/Vindictors.

[Jaskier]

Question; the Lord Arcanum on Tauralon has 12 Wounds in the book but 10 Wounds in the app. Which takes precedence? Book, I'd assume/hope? I only ask because there is a misprint precedent with GW so I'm just wondering if there's been any official communication on the matter? 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Jaskier

[NauticalSoup]

Since no change I'm aware of nerfed it to ten that's probably just (another) app error. 

Honestly have never found the apps a particularly reliable source of reference information for that reason.

[Jaskier]

That was my read of it as well, but it never hurts to check. It's just kind of eye-opening realizing it's a 12 Wound 3+ save Monster that doesn't degrade 😳

[Archibald]

Are there any competitive lists that use Krondys?

[Jaskier]

1 hour ago, Archibald said:

Are there any competitive lists that use Krondys?

I'm not sure about Stormcast lists but he seems like a decent shout in Cities, particularly for Tempest's Eye (I feel like Karazai is a better fit for Living City) if you really wanted to get the most out of them. 

[Archibald]

33 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

I'm not sure about Stormcast lists but he seems like a decent shout in Cities, particularly for Tempest's Eye (I feel like Karazai is a better fit for Living City) if you really wanted to get the most out of them. 

Sounds interesting. But i was especialy looking for stormcast lists.😅

[Lucur]

In the god-meta Krondys has a godly pricetag but not so godly survivability (read: no ward). Against any opponent that can nuke a gargant a turn, big drakeman just gets deleted.

[JackStreicher]

6 hours ago, Jaskier said:

I'm not sure about Stormcast lists but he seems like a decent shout in Cities, particularly for Tempest's Eye (I feel like Karazai is a better fit for Living City) if you really wanted to get the most out of them. 

That is until GW utterly destroys the coalition rules for cities as well.

Employee: “Uhm, no one is playing the dragons in Stormcast lists…“

Competent Rules Guy: “Well, let‘s force them to! Make dragons utter dirt in all other cases. Be quick with it, I don’t feel like fixing anything, that’s time better used on drinking coffee and building Gauß Canon Tanks.“

— The underlying issue of overpriced, squishy Dragon Princes wasn’t resolved, however, they easily destroyed a lot of fun that could’ve been had.

[Andalf]

My current Karazai list :

Karazai

Lord Arcanum on Gryphcharger 

Vexillor w/ Banner of the Apotheosis

2 x 5 Vindictors

2 x 3 Annihilators (one shields, one hammers)

2 Stormdrake Guard

I run Knights Excelsior for the Battleline Annihilators, Celestial Blades or Thundershock for my Gryphcharger.  If I don’t get first turn I basically have to hope my guy survives and I can heal him up.  The Vindi’s try to drop in and block charges to my Annihilators and Dragons, while they do their best to cut a hammer in my opponents army in half with Mortal Wounds from dropping in/charging and dragons breathe.  I don’t play against other Stormcast with Raptors at all, and Sentinels are normally 30-40 per army now so the 18 wounds has a decent chance of getting somewhere.  The hardest part is always those damn Unleash ****** from shooting units that do MW’s, but so far I’ve felt like I could mitigate things reasonably well with threat management.  The charge on a 2+ in your hero phase on the Stormdrakes is the real power.