Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[Doko]

You know the list of the city of sigmar?

[feadair]

27 minutes ago, feadair said:

Stormdrakes and friends are 3-0 in Blackout after day 1, as played by Dan Bradshaw of Team England. Reporting and pics at https://twitter.com/CheekyBNOC. Round 4 today will be SCE v SCE.

 

The list looks to be Hammers of Sigmar.

Knight-Draconis (general)

Bastian

2x 5 Liberators

4x Stormdrakes

6x Raptors

Clean and nasty!

Edited December 12, 2021 by feadair

[feadair]

What do you think is the best Stormhost for a Stormdrake Guard heavy list, assuming you are not using named heroes?

Hammers for a 6+ ward near objectives?

Celestial Vindicators for extra hits on a charge?

Tempest Lords for more reliable charges?

[Dogmantra]

6+ ward is always nice. Brings a unit of two from 18 wounds to an average of 21, which is nothing to sniff at, especially with their great save and spell shrug. 6+ ward is replicable on a smaller scale with any priest, or a 5+ with Gardus if you take his host instead (but it's limited to being near him which you probably won't be)

On a unit of two stormdrake guard, exploding 6s gets you about two extra hits on average (assuming you're using the lance and not the sword), bringing you up to an average of about 11 hits rather than 9. Roughly equivalent to a +1 to hit, but obviously can stack with that. Taking the wound roll into account, you're going to be doing just over 2 extra damage pre-save with a unit of two on the charge with exploding 6s. Exploding 6s is replicable with a priest chanting Bless Weapons.

Tempest Lords is a really nifty one I think because of the hero phase charge potential. The command to reroll charges is charge phase only, so Tempest Lords makes the hero phase charge a lot more reliable. It's approximately replicable with a Knight Vexillor for an aoe reroll charge ability, but again you're not necessarily going to be near them.

 

I think given the downsides of missing a charge are much bigger than 2 or 3 damage, I'd take Tempest Lords but they're all decent candidates imo.

[PrimeElectrid]

On 12/8/2021 at 11:04 PM, The World Tree said:

Longstrikes are not good for the game in their current iterations. The poster on the previous page was correct - the issue is reinforced fulmis/longstrikes.

Seems like this (and other posts along the same line) is backwards.

The reason these units are so popular, Longstrikes in particular, is because the game is currently saturated with extraordinarily resilient lists, usually single models. Sons, Nagash, Archaon, horror spam, and soon Nurgle. Then you get all the lists building crazy high damage to beat those lists. The only way to play in this meta is massive resilience or crazy high damage.

They need to fix both things, everywhere, all at once. Nerfing long/fulms just kicks SCE out of the meta. Nerfing crazy damage just makes high resilience win. Nerfing resilience just leads to more spiralling one-drop alpha strike lists. 
 

 

[feadair]

7 hours ago, feadair said:

The list looks to be Hammers of Sigmar.

Knight-Draconis (general)

Bastian

2x 5 Liberators

4x Stormdrakes

6x Raptors

Clean and nasty!

The list is now 4-0 and in the finals. 

[JackStreicher]

Is s.o. in this thread playing Nurgle?

I‘ve had a look at previews and reviews and my impression so far is:

They seem to have mostly the same statlines as Stormcast, with an added 5+ ward. They can reliably generate Mortal wounds on the enemy and summon - And they are cheaper than Stormcasts? Am I missing something?

Seems really weird to me.

[Beliman]

4 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Is s.o. in this thread playing Nurgle?

I‘ve had a look at previews and reviews and my impression so far is:

They seem to have mostly the same statlines as Stormcast, with an added 5+ ward. They can reliably generate Mortal wounds on the enemy and summon - And they are cheaper than Stormcasts? Am I missing something?

Seems really weird to me.

I'm still reading their warscrolls, but they don't seems to have a lot of teleports (unless you build exactly around it with a subfaction and specialist units) and their Mortal Wounds output is tied to a lot of conditionals (artefact, disease build up, wheel, etc...). And I think that their ranged dmg is really meh overall (ranged profiles) unless you commit to magic (mirrors, 3 sorcerers within 3" of each other, etc...).

Not sure if it counts, but they don't have artillery nor fast cavalry  (8" flyes I think, not sure if there is something faster) nor priests.

[feadair]

List for comments. It is a bit below 2k, so if Longstrikes go up in points in the FAQ, it could still be OK. I am not sure whether SDG should be armed with lances or swords. The former are better on a charge, the latter if stuck in melee. I gave the Knight-Draconis Flaming Weapon, although in practice he is going to be casting Mystic Shield a lot.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Tempest Lords (Stormkeep) - Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
LEADERS
Knight-Draconis (300)*
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome
- Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Knight-Incantor (125)*
- Spell: Celestial Blades
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- Prayer: Translocation
UNITS
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield - 1 x Grandweapons
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield - 1 x Grandweapons
4 x Stormdrake Guard (680)*
- Drakerider's Warblade
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
  CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment
ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley
LEADERS: 3/6
ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS: 0/3
REINFORCED UNITS: 2/4 DROPS: 1
   TOTAL: 1960/2000

[Doko]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Is s.o. in this thread playing Nurgle?

I‘ve had a look at previews and reviews and my impression so far is:

They seem to have mostly the same statlines as Stormcast, with an added 5+ ward. They can reliably generate Mortal wounds on the enemy and summon - And they are cheaper than Stormcasts? Am I missing something?

Seems really weird to me.

Just a fast glimple at glotkin and for only 100 points he have more wounds,5 ward, and more damage and utility than both twin dragons together(2 spells as krondys but as double damage than karazai)

[broverpowerd]

2 hours ago, feadair said:

List for comments. It is a bit below 2k, so if Longstrikes go up in points in the FAQ, it could still be OK. I am not sure whether SDG should be armed with lances or swords. The former are better on a charge, the latter if stuck in melee. I gave the Knight-Draconis Flaming Weapon, although in practice he is going to be casting Mystic Shield a lot.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Tempest Lords (Stormkeep) - Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
LEADERS
Knight-Draconis (300)*
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome
- Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Knight-Incantor (125)*
- Spell: Celestial Blades
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- Prayer: Translocation
UNITS
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield - 1 x Grandweapons
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield - 1 x Grandweapons
4 x Stormdrake Guard (680)*
- Drakerider's Warblade
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
  CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment
ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley
LEADERS: 3/6
ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS: 0/3
REINFORCED UNITS: 2/4 DROPS: 1
   TOTAL: 1960/2000

I have this version and a version w/o relictor and incantor but w/ Bastian.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

Just a fast glimple at glotkin and for only 100 points he have more wounds,5 ward, and more damage and utility than both twin dragons together(2 spells as krondys but as double damage than karazai)

Yeah, I am getting this feeling considering 60% of their units which baffles me.

[Freejack02]

2 hours ago, Doko said:

Just a fast glimple at glotkin and for only 100 points he have more wounds,5 ward, and more damage and utility than both twin dragons together(2 spells as krondys but as double damage than karazai)

The dragons were costed poorly; we know this. That doesn't mean other new factions should suffer the same fate - hopefully they get a reduction soon (in the winter faq would be nice). 

[The World Tree]

7 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Seems like this (and other posts along the same line) is backwards.

The reason these units are so popular, Longstrikes in particular, is because the game is currently saturated with extraordinarily resilient lists, usually single models. Sons, Nagash, Archaon, horror spam, and soon Nurgle. Then you get all the lists building crazy high damage to beat those lists. The only way to play in this meta is massive resilience or crazy high damage.

They need to fix both things, everywhere, all at once. Nerfing long/fulms just kicks SCE out of the meta. Nerfing crazy damage just makes high resilience win. Nerfing resilience just leads to more spiralling one-drop alpha strike lists. 
 

 

Yes, I agree. It isn't a zero sum game. But part of that is recognising and accepting that some of our units need nerfing. Rather than complaining about it. 

[feadair]

Blackout results are out. Around 50 players. SCE’s came third and sixth.

Third place: Knight-Draconis, Celestant Prime, 8x Stormdrake Guard

Sixth place (still 4-1): Knight-Draconis, Bastian, 2x 5 Liberators, 6x Longstrikes, 4x Stormdrake Guard

Edited December 12, 2021 by feadair

[lare2]

Despite everyone's concerns it looks like dragons aren't setting the world on fire then (yet?).

Edited December 12, 2021 by lare2

[feadair]

5 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Despite everyone's concerns it looks like dragons aren't setting the world on fire then (yet?).

So far the results seem to have been very good, but not superb (thank God!). Of course, the lists will get refined and players will get more practice with them, but let’s hope that the previous nerfs prove sufficient to do the trick and that the GW does not need to revisit the issue. A-tier is fine, S-tier is dangerous!

[NauticalSoup]

1 hour ago, lare2 said:

Despite everyone's concerns it looks like dragons aren't setting the world on fire then (yet?).

In general Sigmar's meta develops much slower than 40k's.

[frenk_castle]

Rules question: Stormhosts rule says I can pick one subfaction for my army. All Stormcast Eternals gain the keyword of the subfaction unless they already have one.

So if I pick Anvils of the Heldenhammer Liberators will get it Aventis Firestrike will not since he has Hammers of Sigmar. But what about Yndrasta or Celestant-Prime? I was under the impression unique units can not get subfaction but reading the rule it seems they can unless they have some subfaction already.

[Jaskier]

2 hours ago, frenk_castle said:

Rules question: Stormhosts rule says I can pick one subfaction for my army. All Stormcast Eternals gain the keyword of the subfaction unless they already have one.

So if I pick Anvils of the Heldenhammer Liberators will get it Aventis Firestrike will not since he has Hammers of Sigmar. But what about Yndrasta or Celestant-Prime? I was under the impression unique units can not get subfaction but reading the rule it seems they can unless they have some subfaction already.

They get the appropriate keyword, same as if you ran them in Cities of Sigmar for example. The Celestant Prime is really strong in Hammerhal as he gets to double pile-in for example. 

[vinnyt]

On 12/5/2021 at 11:41 AM, macrake said:

Nice anti SC hyperbole. Play some actual games against competent opponents. Terrible list btw.

wow this comment sure didn't age well. Maybe you should play some actual games against competent opponents 😄 

9 hours ago, feadair said:

List for comments. It is a bit below 2k, so if Longstrikes go up in points in the FAQ, it could still be OK. I am not sure whether SDG should be armed with lances or swords. The former are better on a charge, the latter if stuck in melee. I gave the Knight-Draconis Flaming Weapon, although in practice he is going to be casting Mystic Shield a lot.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Tempest Lords (Stormkeep) - Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
LEADERS
Knight-Draconis (300)*
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome
- Mount Trait: Celestial Instincts
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Knight-Incantor (125)*
- Spell: Celestial Blades
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- Prayer: Translocation
UNITS
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield - 1 x Grandweapons
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield - 1 x Grandweapons
4 x Stormdrake Guard (680)*
- Drakerider's Warblade
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
  CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment
ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley
LEADERS: 3/6
ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS: 0/3
REINFORCED UNITS: 2/4 DROPS: 1
   TOTAL: 1960/2000

Yep, this list looks super good- 4 dragons, 6 raptors, and the classic stormcast cadre of characters. Only difference between this and my hypothesized list is that it dropped the aetherwings and judicators in order to run a single unit of 4 dragons and keep battleline. I don't own the codex so am not sure if the Draconis only lets you take 1 unit of battleline dragons, in which case I think this battleline composition is pretty much optimal. If not, it's gonna be interesting to see if the 1x4 ends up being preferred over the 2x2. I personally still like the 2x2 with aetherwings if that's legal. Obviously everything has to be in a 1 drop either way.

It's nice seeing the 4-1 results and I'm sure some 5-0s will be coming once the list gets fine-tuned. 

[NauticalSoup]

Seeing how much more material is packed into the maggotkin book reminds me how garbage it is to have the first book in an edition cycle.

Is it badly edited? Yes. Are maggotkin good? Maybe, maybe not. But just on the sheer number of options they got that neither Warclans or SCE did I'm already feeling so luke warm on the trajectory of 3.0 I may ditch.

Also 6 months into an edition cycle and we get the next battletome release, that's pretty... something.

[Jaskier]

5 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

In general Sigmar's meta develops much slower than 40k's.

I might be wrong but I largely feel the reason for this is 40K has an extreme meta-chasing attitude in its competitive scene, whereas AoS doesn't have that to nearly the same degree. I know for a fact in Australia the AoS scene is much more...'relaxed' in that sense compared to the 40K one - not less competitive, just less 'I will buy my way to victory!'

[NauticalSoup]

38 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

I might be wrong but I largely feel the reason for this is 40K has an extreme meta-chasing attitude in its competitive scene, whereas AoS doesn't have that to nearly the same degree. I know for a fact in Australia the AoS scene is much more...'relaxed' in that sense compared to the 40K one - not less competitive, just less 'I will buy my way to victory!'

Fewer people play Sigmar. Like- a lot fewer. That alone should account for the majority of it. If Sigmar were the dominant miniatures wargame in the world I expect it would have similar issues.

Edit: I'll add, we do get there eventually, just takes longer. Tzeentch big battalions in 2.0, Archaelon lists at the start of 3.0, Hedonites at their height, FEC- Sigmar can be just as degenerate and obsessive-competitive as 40k

Edited December 13, 2021 by NauticalSoup

[Jaskier]

True on both points, though I feel you do see more diversity in AoS. What I said is definitely true down under though, can make that claim based off a tonne of personal experience 😅