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Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors


PJetski
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2 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Curious to hear your opinions; if Fulminators do go up by 30 points, and we assume the other Dracoth variants don't change, would Fulminators still be the most popular Dracothian Guard variant or would another variant take their place? 260 for Fulminators VS 220 for say Concussors would certainly be less of an obvious choice. 

So running the numbers, 2 concussors deal an average of 11 damage.  2 fulminators deal an average of 9.78, or 18 on the charge.

Basically, a squad of 4 fulminators charging can delete a megagargant, and need maybe an all out attack.  But 4 concussors can't.

Because of this, I think that if you are running just one unit of dracothian guard, then you are running fulminators, even with that points increase.  However, if you are running squads of 2, or already have your hammer of fulminators, then it might be worth looking to the concussors.

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So, there's been a lot of discussion here about Stormcast & their power level.

I've thought a bit about it, and concluded that classic melee style stormcast simply aren't going to be balanced for a simple reason: Balance is judged from both a casual & competitive perspective. The basic tenets of Stormcast units: Elite units with a high save is antithetical to them being balanced in both of these domains. On the one hand, too high saves are quite quickly problematic when the stormcasts are put in a casual context. If saves are too high, games are too quickly decided in the list-building part of the game. E.g.: many lists simply not being able to deal with all-round good saves.  Not much of a problem in competitive, but very much so in a casual context where people want to play lists that they like. 

Now, In a competitive context, Stormcast might have to be stronger to be viable. However, since competitive is a game of listbuilding & countering the meta, Stormcast are always at the risk that the moment they become a top contender, they are quite easily halted by high quality damage sources - which, in a sense, seems to be the current meta. Now, we could balance Stormcasts against such a meta. For instance by handing out more or better wards without conditions such as having a squishy Gardus around, or, by giving them more health. Perhaps even by making their set-up abilities better so that they have an easier time to strike the opponent before they are destroyed by high-quality damage. But making them decent within such a meta, would - I believe - simply lead to a situation where they are too strong & easy to play in a casual context as long as Stormcasts fit in the niche of heavy tanks. This would be problematic for any faction, but especially for the 'entry level' faction of the game. 

Edited by Abstract_duck
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5 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

Would be nice to see points reductions on the gigantic stack of nearly four chambers of SCE units that are currently comically overpriced, rather than just having the current iteration of The List nerfed into the ground.

SCE don’t get buffs we get nerfs. Ignore the 20-30 useless warscrolls, forget about the trash command traits, the garbage battle tactics, the trash grand strategies, how most of the holy orders aren’t worth the CP, and how 7 of 9 artefacts are irrelevant. Longstrikes, dragons and Fulminators make people sad so they get hit without anyone stopping to ask why nobody takes anything else in the book.

 

Edited by PrimeElectrid
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2 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Can you give a hint about where those rumors are coming from? I'm not saying i don’t trust you, but just to have a general vision about if all of them come from tue same source or not.

Chap in the stormkeep discord. Same source previously advised menagerie change, translocation nerf and sdg points increase. Wasn’t specific on details, but has given a lot for winter faq.

Edited by PrimeElectrid
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So I'm wondering what the SDG rewrites are.  I mean, they hit them hard with points and then they are getting a rewrite as well?  Pretty crazy.  Any chance that the point changes took into account the new war scroll, or did they nerf with points based on the current war scroll and then they get double hit with a worse war scroll and points value based on a better war scroll?  What I'm hoping and expecting with this are too different things.

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3 minutes ago, Celestantpants said:

So I'm wondering what the SDG rewrites are.  I mean, they hit them hard with points and then they are getting a rewrite as well?  Pretty crazy.  Any chance that the point changes took into account the new war scroll, or did they nerf with points based on the current war scroll and then they get double hit with a worse war scroll and points value based on a better war scroll?  What I'm hoping and expecting with this are too different things.

If rewritte happen i guess it would be remove double move or nerf on shooting. 

Edited by Nizrah
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1 minute ago, Nizrah said:

If rewritte happen i guess it would be remove double move or nerf on shooting. 

My guess would be they do both of those things.  They will probably delete the Knight Draconis's ability to make them shoot twice once a game as well.

 

It will be interesting to see how they handle new Tomes that are coming out if they are overtuned, which some of them of course will be.  It is going to be interesting to see if other armies get hit this hard this fast.  Who knows, maybe they will and this is GW's new way of doing things.  If it is, cool, then go digital with the Tomes.  Don't charge so much money for a book that is out of date this fast.  Or maybe they could start actually playtesting and proof reading before the Tomes come out.  Crazy idea right?

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14 hours ago, Jaskier said:

Curious to hear your opinions; if Fulminators do go up by 30 points, and we assume the other Dracoth variants don't change, would Fulminators still be the most popular Dracothian Guard variant or would another variant take their place? 260 for Fulminators VS 220 for say Concussors would certainly be less of an obvious choice. 

Not as long as we stay in a meta full of Archaon, Gargants, Nagash, Kragnos, etc.

Concussors don't do enough damage to kill Gargants in one turn

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16 minutes ago, Celestantpants said:

Assuming Fulminators and Longstrikes go up by the amount specified, what modifications to lists do you think we will see?  Do we think people will actually go with Grandhammers, or are they too limited by missions?

We drop inefficient support heroes like the Tauralon, maybe swap Raptors for Judicators

Not a big deal overall

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1 minute ago, Celestantpants said:

Cool, that sounds reasonable.  So likely fulminators stay despite nerf.  They really are pretty important to passing the dps check.

Yup. Both Longstrikes and Fulminators going up makes them difficult to use in the same list together (cant take a 3rd hammer unit, you give up a lot of screens & support heroes) but you can still do Judicators + Fulminators or Longstrikes + Drakes or Longstrikes + Annihilators

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3 hours ago, PJetski said:

We drop inefficient support heroes like the Tauralon, maybe swap Raptors for Judicators

Not a big deal overall

Isn't swapping Raptors for Judicators still an increase in price, though? Unless you're talking single-reinforced who will be much weaker at killing screens/support heroes, or cutting a liberator screen since you don't need as many battlelines.

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Just now, Squark said:

Isn't swapping Raptors for Judicators still an increase in price, though? Unless you're talking single-reinforced who will be much weaker at killing screens/support heroes, or cutting a liberator screen since you don't need as many battlelines.

It's a net decrease in points spent when you consider the battleline slot the Judicators are filling (520 + 115 vs 570/600)

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I'm not banking on anything, but imagine if they actually make Vanquishers good in the Winter FAQ. 

There's a few ways they could do it, and it'd be pretty great to have a reasonably killy melee Battleline unit in the roster. 

It's a genuine pity that such fantastic models with so much potential fell so flat.

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