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Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors


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8 hours ago, SoWJordan said:

Hey Chronos!

I wanted to start off by saying thanks for the kind words about us/our show - we're trying our best to rep the Canadian scene well! As a fan of our content I just wanted to clarify my intentions about the comments/discussions we've had about Stormcast, and the points you've mentioned.

First off, as a general blanket statement I didn't mean to imply that any units were grossly overpowered/undercosted or anything when referring to SCE being 'very strong', nor did I want to be derogatory about the army. Like you mention I play Lumineth as well and I would say they are also very strong! I definitely didn't mean any of my comments as complaints, or with the inference that I felt any of the units should be nerfed, have their pts increased, or that the army shouldn't be good at anything.

At this point with AoS I collect/play so many armies that I don't view the game through the standpoint of one specific army, and aim to be fair/impartial in my opinions & comments. That said, I LOVE Stormcast as an army (particularly once I had an idea for how to customize the army hobby-wise) so never meant to disparage the army or anyone who plays it.

In the batrep you mention my goal was to highlight the areas of strength in the faction, not to tear them down but merely to highlight them to hopefully help players the community adjust to a new tome easier - I 100% agree with your comments about needing to adjust your perspective & tactics (and even lists) in response to new battletome or changes in the meta. One of the big goals of our channel is to help prepare those interested in tournament play in AoS, as learning opposing armies can be one of the biggest challenges when starting out - when I was starting there were almost no battle reports featuring the lists I would be seeing when going to events, so we wanted to help fill that gap.

Regarding my comments about Longstrikes and your comparison between them and Sentinels; I again did not mean anything as a complaint about the unit. Playing a similar roles, Longstrikes do outperform 30 Sentinels with power of Hysh, with Sentinels only matching or eclipsing ;) them when considering Lambent Light (generally requiring a combination of 3 spellcasts - and we all know how reliable spells can be at times). I actually think Longstrikes are maybe even slightly harshly pointed for their fragility and weaknesses. All that said, I think the main thing I aimed to highlight with Longstrikes are their 'ease of use' for players to be aware of - there's almost no fail points in the application of their firepower when they're on the board. Regardless, in the end I think Longstrikes are completely fine as is.

The main point I did highlight as a potential concern was Thunderbolt Volley - I do think it is potentially too strong/problematic on my early experience with the army (I admittedly have only played 8 games with them now after the GT). Am I calling for its immediate removal or FAQ? Not at all, but I do think its worth highlighting as something the game designers should keep a close eye on - it is very strong. Again, I'd say the same thing of the Sentinels ability to ignore LoS - I play no favorites!

In the end, I just wanted to clarify my comments to avoid any unintended derogatory sentiment towards the army - so I hope you know that I do not hate the army nor want it to be nerfed into the ground or any such thing. In addition (lol) I've got nothing but love and appreciation for your time and consideration of our content!

 

Hey Paul!

As Chronos first said the Incantor is a great unit and was a strong consideration for the list, to explain my choice and respond to your - justified - thoughts on the list overall its worth considering the context of my choices for the event itself:

- This was a small GT (sub 30 players) with what I expected to be a HEAVY Destruction/Combat presence (indeed 10/26 were destro with another 8 being nearly pure combat armies). Good reasons to go Stormkeep/Hallowed Knights.
- Of those there were 4 SoB players, and I knew to expect at least 2 of the players bringing them to be fighting on top tables. I fought and beat 1, but didn't get the chance to play Yury who won the event. Further good reasons for Stormkeep/Hallowed Knights.
- I expected very few 'Magic Dominant' armies, and also knew the venue had lots of LoS block terrain, so I had little fear of casters picking off Gardus or my other heroes early.

With all those in mind I felt the Arcane tome Relictor would replace the Knight Incantor well as a caster for Celestial blades/mystic shield, and I didn't 'NEED' the auto-unbind. Additionally the Relictor brought the 2+ Bless Weapons prayer, and the extended range as another potential hero from which to trigger Thunderbolt Volley. In the context of this event the second Lord Relictor definitely felt like he provided more value - and in hindsight it was definitely the right decision based on my matchups!

In large part, Stormkeep was also the right call and provided much more value to me/my games than Scions would have (which I think is predominantly the better choice at larger/more varied events).

Also worth noting that prior to list submission I had played 1 game with SCE (the one vs IJ) where I wasn't forced to rely on many dominion units because of my limited collection. I wouldn't claim its a masterful list that can podium at any event - missions and matchups in the final rounds are SO impactful in AoS 3 as Stormkeep does have some significant weaknesses.

All in all, I think it was definitely the right list for the event, and I had a blast playing it - I hope I was able to shed some light on its perceived faults!

Anyways, cheers - keep up the awesome content!

- Jordan

Hey Jordan, thanks for the awesome reply.

It seems I read into what you guys were saying a little too much or in the wrong way. I think my mindset was, after watching your last two tournament recaps, that here's 3-4 guys who are obviously really great at the game, placing 4-1 and 5-0 and it seemed like to me you were saying the damage was too easy, not to be careful it's too easy. So that's my bad on the misinterpretation.

Also I found it funny that your Seraphon player(I'm bad with names...) is 5-0 the last two tournaments with probably a mean list and here you guys are talking about Stormcast being maybe too good? But again obviously you've clarified you're talking moreso about TV being the problematic part so again that was maybe my mix up in what you were saying.

I'd like to say that I wasn't trying to say you were the ones wanting them nerfed into the ground, but there has in general been talk of Stormcasts' good units getting nerfed especially with the December FAQ so that's why I brought it up.

Quote

In the batrep you mention my goal was to highlight the areas of strength in the faction, not to tear them down but merely to highlight them to hopefully help players the community adjust to a new tome easier - I 100% agree with your comments about needing to adjust your perspective & tactics (and even lists) in response to new battletome or changes in the meta. One of the big goals of our channel is to help prepare those interested in tournament play in AoS, as learning opposing armies can be one of the biggest challenges when starting out - when I was starting there were almost no battle reports featuring the lists I would be seeing when going to events, so we wanted to help fill that gap.

Just watching your channel in general this has helped me a lot as someone who got into AoS just before Covid hit and am just starting to play a lot of games now, because you're absolutely right. I had a pretty good idea of how to fight Archaon Tzeentch due to your batreps but going in blind against giants was rough.

Quote

The main point I did highlight as a potential concern was Thunderbolt Volley - I do think it is potentially too strong/problematic on my early experience with the army (I admittedly have only played 8 games with them now after the GT). Am I calling for its immediate removal or FAQ? Not at all, but I do think its worth highlighting as something the game designers should keep a close eye on - it is very strong. Again, I'd say the same thing of the Sentinels ability to ignore LoS - I play no favorites!

You're obviously much more experienced and a better player than myself, so you're probably right. I just find in this meta with a lot of power-pieces that to me it's just another power-piece. Add in talk of Fulminators getting a points bump and it does seem a bit like Stormcasts good pieces are getting adjusted RIGHT AWAY, and (someone else already brought this up in earlier pages) but other power pieces can last a year or more. I guess we will see what happens in December!

Quote

In the end, I just wanted to clarify my comments to avoid any unintended derogatory sentiment towards the army - so I hope you know that I do not hate the army nor want it to be nerfed into the ground or any such thing. In addition (lol) I've got nothing but love and appreciation for your time and consideration of our content!

Even if I did complain about what you guys talked about, I don't think anything you said was derogatory or that you hate the army! You gave an in depth look and I'm somewhat biased so disagreed with your opinion.

Not to sound like I'm a promoter, but you're content is awesome and everything you're doing with your channel is great. It's my go to for batreps and to learn nuances of the game as it's IMO the best place for a competitive look and just such good production value!

On a side note, I'm in the west GTA but I think you've scared me off of going into X-planet(I think you've mentioned that FLGS) as it seems like the meta is really strong/amazing players.

Thanks again for the reply.

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1 hour ago, Chronos said:

On a side note, I'm in the west GTA but I think you've scared me off of going into X-planet(I think you've mentioned that FLGS) as it seems like the meta is really strong/amazing players.

I've been to many tournaments at X-Planet and it's like 80% casual dad types looking to get a day off to roll dice and look at cool models, and a handful of highly competitive players. The owner is a great guy and the community is spectacular. Never had a bad game there.

Definitely my favourite spot for RTTs in Ontario

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19 hours ago, SoWJordan said:

The main point I did highlight as a potential concern was Thunderbolt Volley - I do think it is potentially too strong/problematic on my early experience with the army (I admittedly have only played 8 games with them now after the GT). Am I calling for its immediate removal or FAQ? Not at all, but I do think its worth highlighting as something the game designers should keep a close eye on - it is very strong. Again, I'd say the same thing of the Sentinels ability to ignore LoS - I play no favorites!

Yep,the problem is thunderbolt volley.

Rigth now longstrikes are to me even overcosted,a unit of 240 points that only have 6 wounds with save4???? But of course almost 500 points of lomgstrikes doubleshooting is the problem.

The fix is easy,delete thunderbolt volley and put lomgstrikes at 180 points. But as all we know gw only gonna increase lomgstrikes in 40 points and in the future as allways nerf thunderbolt volley but not unnerf lomgstrikes.

Btw i bougth krondrys on a whim because im a freak of dragons even before read his scroll. But now that i have done numbers these twin dragons are horrible lol.

How heck they cost 600 points????

-nameds,as they cant get upgrades

-krondys does 10.2 damage vs one model and 2 mortals with ranged 

-melle dragon around 13 damage vs one model and 2 mortals with ranged

-havent ward save neither special save,feel no pain,neither nothing to protect against mortals wounds,so 600 points for a model that die with 18 mortals.

I know that his damage is bigger vs many models due to the tail,but 3" isnt huge so even against 10 models his damage is inferior to idoneths turtle or maw krushas per example that cost 200 less points.

Im missing something?i feel they need a faq in december that gives them a ward of 4 or 5 or a reduction in points,to me these stats are models of 450 for krondrys and 400 for the melle but 600 are waaaaay too much for his stats

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6 hours ago, Doko said:

Yep,the problem is thunderbolt volley.

Rigth now longstrikes are to me even overcosted,a unit of 240 points that only have 6 wounds with save4???? But of course almost 500 points of lomgstrikes doubleshooting is the problem.

The fix is easy,delete thunderbolt volley and put lomgstrikes at 180 points. But as all we know gw only gonna increase lomgstrikes in 40 points and in the future as allways nerf thunderbolt volley but not unnerf lomgstrikes.

Btw i bougth krondrys on a whim because im a freak of dragons even before read his scroll. But now that i have done numbers these twin dragons are horrible lol.

How heck they cost 600 points????

-nameds,as they cant get upgrades

-krondys does 10.2 damage vs one model and 2 mortals with ranged 

-melle dragon around 13 damage vs one model and 2 mortals with ranged

-havent ward save neither special save,feel no pain,neither nothing to protect against mortals wounds,so 600 points for a model that die with 18 mortals.

I know that his damage is bigger vs many models due to the tail,but 3" isnt huge so even against 10 models his damage is inferior to idoneths turtle or maw krushas per example that cost 200 less points.

Im missing something?i feel they need a faq in december that gives them a ward of 4 or 5 or a reduction in points,to me these stats are models of 450 for krondrys and 400 for the melle but 600 are waaaaay too much for his stats

Your assessment is correct. Khrondys might be worth 500-600 points due to his spellcasting.

however the Stardrake isn’t worth 500 either. Imo it should look like this:

Drake Templar: 395 pts

Stardrake: 420 pts

Karazai: 490 pts

Khyrondys: 535 pts

and the dragon princes really need a 5+ ward. They can call it hardened Draconith   scales

Edited by JackStreicher
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10 hours ago, Doko said:

Yep,the problem is thunderbolt volley.

Rigth now longstrikes are to me even overcosted,a unit of 240 points that only have 6 wounds with save4???? But of course almost 500 points of lomgstrikes doubleshooting is the problem.

The fix is easy,delete thunderbolt volley and put lomgstrikes at 180 points. But as all we know gw only gonna increase lomgstrikes in 40 points and in the future as allways nerf thunderbolt volley but not unnerf lomgstrikes.

Btw i bougth krondrys on a whim because im a freak of dragons even before read his scroll. But now that i have done numbers these twin dragons are horrible lol.

How heck they cost 600 points????

-nameds,as they cant get upgrades

-krondys does 10.2 damage vs one model and 2 mortals with ranged 

-melle dragon around 13 damage vs one model and 2 mortals with ranged

-havent ward save neither special save,feel no pain,neither nothing to protect against mortals wounds,so 600 points for a model that die with 18 mortals.

I know that his damage is bigger vs many models due to the tail,but 3" isnt huge so even against 10 models his damage is inferior to idoneths turtle or maw krushas per example that cost 200 less points.

Im missing something?i feel they need a faq in december that gives them a ward of 4 or 5 or a reduction in points,to me these stats are models of 450 for krondrys and 400 for the melle but 600 are waaaaay too much for his stats

I dont think delete thunderbolt volley Is a good solution.  I love " once per game" abilities because it force the player to take decisions.  Its the competitve part of the hobby that i love and I think aos3.0 is way batter about competitve part of the hobby

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1 hour ago, Turragor said:

Stardrake is a very flexible tool for a 500 pt monster. The game right now just doesnt reward flexible expensive pieces.

 

I agree, I played a game today where that -1 casting aura was the difference for stopping three key spells (and the +1 ensured I got a key spell off too) and the 30" range shooting attack is beastly. 

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2 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

I dont think delete thunderbolt volley Is a good solution.  I love " once per game" abilities because it force the player to take decisions.  Its the competitve part of the hobby that i love and I think aos3.0 is way batter about competitve part of the hobby

Does this really qualify as a meaningful decision? All it tests is your unit evaluation knowledge and possibly your mathhammering.

Pick out the chief threat the longstrikes are able to remove. Remove it. 

This might seem novel in the context of AoS (I'm not sure it is given longstrikes were used essentially the same way last edition) but having played 40k for 20 years with plenty of one-use alpha strike shooting units & equipment I can assure you it really, really isn't.

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On 11/30/2021 at 8:34 AM, PJetski said:

Since you had such good knowledge of the local meta I think you made the right call.

How did you find your list matching up against Seraphon? Was the lack of Scions and Incantor an issue?

Looking forward to bumping into you at events again (probably at the top tables, like usual) in the new year! Maybe this time you will be the one playing a stormcast castle list xD

Ridge's Seraphon Thunder Lizards list was the matchup I feared the most going into the event - it (and maybe the 1 drop DoK's) were probably the only matchups I felt wouldn't be in my favor. Without changing my list I don't think Scions would have made much difference, nor was there 1 critical spell I'd wished I had the Incantor for. The most punishing thing was -1 damage on the Longstrikes, who did a total of 7 damage through their first 3 rounds of shooting 😢

In hindsight though, the matchup perhaps was not as bad as I thought it would be, and I perhaps played more 'desperate' than I needed to as I only lost by 2 vp in the end - I'll chalk that up to inexperience with the list/army and I'll know for next time. I've been gravitating to Judicators a lot in list building, and they 100% would have been a huge boost there - just gotta track down some models to test them on the table :P

On 11/30/2021 at 9:19 AM, Chronos said:

Hey Jordan, thanks for the awesome reply.

It seems I read into what you guys were saying a little too much or in the wrong way. I think my mindset was, after watching your last two tournament recaps, that here's 3-4 guys who are obviously really great at the game, placing 4-1 and 5-0 and it seemed like to me you were saying the damage was too easy, not to be careful it's too easy. So that's my bad on the misinterpretation.

Also I found it funny that your Seraphon player(I'm bad with names...) is 5-0 the last two tournaments with probably a mean list and here you guys are talking about Stormcast being maybe too good? But again obviously you've clarified you're talking moreso about TV being the problematic part so again that was maybe my mix up in what you were saying.

I'd like to say that I wasn't trying to say you were the ones wanting them nerfed into the ground, but there has in general been talk of Stormcasts' good units getting nerfed especially with the December FAQ so that's why I brought it up.

Just watching your channel in general this has helped me a lot as someone who got into AoS just before Covid hit and am just starting to play a lot of games now, because you're absolutely right. I had a pretty good idea of how to fight Archaon Tzeentch due to your batreps but going in blind against giants was rough.

You're obviously much more experienced and a better player than myself, so you're probably right. I just find in this meta with a lot of power-pieces that to me it's just another power-piece. Add in talk of Fulminators getting a points bump and it does seem a bit like Stormcasts good pieces are getting adjusted RIGHT AWAY, and (someone else already brought this up in earlier pages) but other power pieces can last a year or more. I guess we will see what happens in December!

Even if I did complain about what you guys talked about, I don't think anything you said was derogatory or that you hate the army! You gave an in depth look and I'm somewhat biased so disagreed with your opinion.

Not to sound like I'm a promoter, but you're content is awesome and everything you're doing with your channel is great. It's my go to for batreps and to learn nuances of the game as it's IMO the best place for a competitive look and just such good production value!

On a side note, I'm in the west GTA but I think you've scared me off of going into X-planet(I think you've mentioned that FLGS) as it seems like the meta is really strong/amazing players.

Thanks again for the reply.

In the end all is good - I'm glad to have read your feedback as its a good reminder for me to try to be clearer & more impartial when I chat about armies/units!

I similarly am used to (and often annoyed by) constant bashing of armies I love/play so I feel you there, and I want to make sure I'm not adding to the pile of internet whining haha. Other than Gargants, the haughty Aelf player in me distastes them greatly XD

As Paul said though, X-Planet is great, definitely don't shy away! There is an amazing and varied community there, and you should definitely get involved - I know they have a lively discord if you want to jump in!

 

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2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Starting to see a theme here with these lists...

And themes get noticed...

I mean that's the issue with SCE books iddnit? Nothing does anything (now even less than before, how many leaders lost the only ability justifying their existence?) so you just take the best-on-paper warscrolls in each category which results in the same list over and over. Even if/when GW nerfs longstrikes, fulminators and knight-judicators the lists will just shift to the next set of best-on-paper warscrolls and be similarly uniform.

The only thing that could possibly change that would be such a dramatic re-pointing of the book that it was no longer possible to pick out the best units at a glance- and given the (lack of) internal balance it has right now I think it unlikely.

Edited by NauticalSoup
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16 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

I mean that's the issue with SCE books iddnit? Nothing does anything (new even less than before, how many leaders lost the only ability justifying their existence?) so you just take the best-on-paper warscrolls in each category which results in the same list over and over. Even if/when GW nerfs longstrikes, fulminators and knight-judicators the lists will just shift to the next set of best-on-paper warscrolls and be similarly uniform.

The only thing that could possibly change that would be such a dramatic re-pointing of the book that it was no longer possible to pick out the best units at a glance- and given the (lack of) internal balance it has right now I think it unlikely.

Thats true. All the warscrolls need the Soulblight treatment in that damn near everything is good and on par with everything else in the book that results in a variety of lists. Stand outs will always exist of course.

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Once longstrikes and fulminators are nerfed this month, our next go to units will be grandhammer annihilators and dragons (assuming the rumor about a war scroll rewrite isn't true).  Where do we go from there though?  Once grandhammers and dragons become the pattern they will take a nerf bat to the face in the next balance update, and once that happens where does that leave us?  Many of our other units can't replace them, even if they get point reductions.  Things like vanquishers will never see the point drops needed to be competitive, for example.  The problem is we have so many poor war scrolls that points alone can't fix due to how low they would have to get to be competitive, which won't fly in an elite army.  Curious as to what you guys think.

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1 minute ago, Celestantpants said:

Once longstrikes and fulminators are nerfed this month, our next go to units will be grandhammer annihilators and dragons (assuming the rumor about a war scroll rewrite isn't true).  Where do we go from there though?  Once grandhammers and dragons become the pattern they will take a nerf bat to the face in the next balance update, and once that happens where does that leave us?  Many of our other units can't replace them, even if they get point reductions.  Things like vanquishers will never see the point drops needed to be competitive, for example.  The problem is we have so many poor war scrolls that points alone can't fix due to how low they would have to get to be competitive, which won't fly in an elite army.  Curious as to what you guys think.

That's exactly it: they need to do a full-on balance pass like every other wargame seems to do. Whatever way it shakes out, we paid extra for a new book that's already out of date. I decided to pass on the dragons because of that 110 USD price tag. If "balance pass" does not mean warscroll changes, well, I'll focus on hobbying what I have and use OPR or something instead of letting GW get under my skin.

 

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7 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

That's exactly it: they need to do a full-on balance pass like every other wargame seems to do. Whatever way it shakes out, we paid extra for a new book that's already out of date. I decided to pass on the dragons because of that 110 USD price tag. If "balance pass" does not mean warscroll changes, well, I'll focus on hobbying what I have and use OPR or something instead of letting GW get under my skin.

 

Yeah, that's a good mindset to take.  I also passed on the dragons, their price is crazy, especially when you factor in how unstable they seem to be rules/points wise.  They are just too pricey to buy for cool factor alone.  Maybe I'll pick some up later in the year off ebay.  It's sad to consider, but if Stormcast don't get war scroll updates that fix some of our terrible units, we might be regulated to being a pretty bad army again pretty quickly.  Sad for that to happen so fast.  If it does, I might have to put stormcast back on the shelf for awhile and go back to playing my COS army every game.  I love Stormcast, they are my favorite AOS army, but it's not going to be fun playing an army that is becoming simple to the point of ALMOST being boring AND bad on top of it.  We are not there yet, but the future isn't looking bright for Sigmar's chosen.

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Do we know how much Longstrikes will increase in costs? I have two boxes in sprues I wanted to play in a ranger-themed army and I am a bit afraid that GW overdo it with the nerf once again :/ Also, do you think point drops for Vigilors may happen? 

Edit: Also, what is the opinion on Xandires Truthseekers? I mean 3 Heroes with 5 Wounds and a 3+ save and D2 profiles look really solid, even if they are 265 pts

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