Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[PrimeElectrid]

This pretty much sums it up. It wasn’t more testing but enough people moaning.

 

[Malakithe]

GW doesnt do actual play testing. They never have and they definitely dont have the time to do it now. Actual play testing would involve a large size of players playing with a variety of lists over the course of months. In the video game industry this is known as a Beta. Most good Beta periods will have a limited release so a sample size of players can give proper feedback before a product goes live for general consumer use. 

GW doesnt do that in any capacity. They ask only the super popular people to check out the rules and thats its.  So just like a lot of online games in recent years they release an untested incomplete product, have the player base test it, then patch it later.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Malakithe

[Celestantpants]

Them thanking everyone for that feedback 100% confirms that they catered to Stormcast hate.  It literally Cannot be argued anymore.  People hate Stormcast and yelled loudly about it on the internet so Stormcast got nerfed BEFORE the problem units came out in an unprecedented move with zero data to back it up.  Honestly, people should be up in arms about it.

Again, if they did this to literally any other faction it would be different.  All I, and I assume most other people with negative reactions want, is for them to treat us like any other faction.  That is not what has happened or likely will happen though.  Think about:

- GW holds off on the big balance FAQ because they want more data despite having months of tourney data on offending armies and having many people tell them about said armies.

- GW nerfs dragons several times HARD with literally no data to support it.

- GW literally thanks Stormcast haters for demanding it.  

Explain that incongruity please.  How can it be interpreted as anything other than Stormcast hate catering?  Again, GW waits for more info to nerf armies that are clearly problem armies that have months of data to show how broken they are.  GW then nerfs Stormcast units  before they are released with zero data to support it and thanks the people that made the suggestion.  One of these things is not like the other....

Edited November 20, 2021 by Celestantpants

[JackStreicher]

4 hours ago, Malakithe said:

GW doesnt do actual play testing. They never have and they definitely dont have the time to do it now. Actual play testing would involve a large size of players playing with a variety of lists over the course of months. In the video game industry this is known as a Beta. Most good Beta periods will have a limited release so a sample size of players can give proper feedback before a product goes live for general consumer use. 

It‘d be enough if they had 4 people playing one afternoon and having one day to look at a tome to iron out the most broken and useless warscrolls and mechanics. Most issues are obvious. And I‘d be fine if the obvious ones would not appear in books anymore.

 

I don‘t believe in Stormcast hate. Those dragons were way too good, it took one exactly  two minutes of looking at the Warscroll to figure that out.

Edited November 20, 2021 by JackStreicher

[Doko]

Easy solution,i wont buy any dragon so gw gonna learn to not destroy a unit before being released

[OkayestDM]

My plans for the dragons hasn't changed: 5 kits total, two for each weapon variant, and one extra to let me make 2 Knight-Draconis heroes.

 

[Squark]

26 minutes ago, Doko said:

Easy solution,i wont buy any dragon so gw gonna learn to not destroy a unit before being released

This is actually kind of concerning to me in a weird way. See, GW did the right thing, here. Letting us know Stormdrake Guard were going to get kicked in the teeth like this before we bought them is objectively better than selling them to us and them killing the list a month later. But this is also going to kill sales of the dragons. And I worry GW is going to take the wrong lesson from this. The lesson here is that they should have been more conservative in designing the dragons to begin with, but I worry GW will conclude that letting players know about incoming balance changes in advance is a mistake that costs them money.

[Freejack02]

17 minutes ago, Squark said:

But this is also going to kill sales of the dragons. And I worry GW is going to take the wrong lesson from this.

I think their takeaway from this will be not to preview amazing new sculpts in May only to release them in December. That, more than anything, is what I think they will blame if the sales aren't up to expectations - the effects of Covid on international production/shipping is just too easy of a scapegoat for them to bother delving any deeper. I'm not expecting any changes to their operations; they'll keep pushing pretty plastic alongside dubious rules, and people will keep buying it. 

[Tizianolol]

Guys do you know stormdrake guard base size?

[NauticalSoup]

22 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Refreshing would be actually releasing them balanced in the battletome to begin with.

GW's new units are generally terrible and occasionally broken. Very rarely they're about where they should be, just because you're eventually bound to get it right through sheer random luck. Since that's obviously never changing (after several decades of it I think we can safely say GW has figured out it's not in their business model) I'm willing to take "making a minimum effort to manage their own ****** ups in a timely manner" as a huge step up from what we could historically expect from them.

The bar is extremely low. Setting it any higher is just wishful thinking.

Edit: ALSO the unhinged paranoid complaints that GW is somehow bowing to "Stormcast Hate" are insane. Like - do you think GW would release a massive wave of kits for a faction if they were afraid of upsetting everybody else in the playerbase? They don't care, they have no reason to care. And tons (dare I say even most) STORMCAST players were saying these needed to be nerfed. If you think otherwise you haven't been paying attention to what people are saying in this very thread, let alone out there at the tables.

Edited November 20, 2021 by NauticalSoup
Why would that word be censored. Now it looks like I said something far more crass D:<

[Jaskier]

>Gets a giant release wave for their army every 2 years, some individually bigger than other armies' entire model ranges.

>Historically always has at least 1-2 strong tournament builds, whereas some factions can't even make that claim. 

>Believes GW hates their army. 

Golly, you'd think Stormcasts were the new Space Marines or something...

Edited November 21, 2021 by Jaskier

[Celestantpants]

Hey Nautical, can you explain to me why GW says that they are waiting to release the balance FAQ to allow for more data first before they make changes, despite obviously broken armies, but then nerf dragons with no data?  Why is that?  Also, I never said dragons don't need an adjustment.  If you read my posts you'd see that the main point is they are not treating Stormcast the same as other armies, hence the whole not waiting for data thing.  So saying that we just don't want the dragons nerfed feels a bit disingenuous. 

My point is this: if GW is going to pre nerf overturned models without a faq, then they should do it for everyone, not just Stormcast.  It is crazy that they did this to dragons while letting certain other armies go untouched for so long.  It's especially crazy to then say they are waiting to release the balance FAQ till there is more data.  This really gives the impression of trying to appease loud voices that hate Stormcast. 

So did dragons deserve a nerf?  Yes.  Should they have treated it the same as every other army and waited for more data if that is their stance?  YES.  If not, then they should do an emergency patch to many other armies too.  Otherwise it really does come off as unfair.  I personally just want them to treat Stormcast the same as other armies, which clearly isn't happening.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Celestantpants

[Jaskier]

@Celestantpants you're ignoring the fact that the Dragons have had rules/points available for several weeks now but have yet to be physically released. This situation isn't completely unprecedented (I think) but it is a very rare circumstance. The reason this change released early is because they want to avoid people buying something in expectation of how many they can fit into their armies/how good they are. Not letting people know prior to its release would have likely left a lot of players feeling cheated for buying something based on a false set of expectations. The path they chose avoids that. It's really that simple.

[Celestantpants]

17 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

@Celestantpants you're ignoring the fact that the Dragons have had rules/points available for several weeks now but have yet to be physically released. This situation isn't completely unprecedented (I think) but it is a very rare circumstance. The reason this change released early is because they want to avoid people buying something in expectation of how many they can fit into their armies/how good they are. Not letting people know prior to its release would have likely left a lot of players feeling cheated for buying something based on a false set of expectations. The path they chose avoids that. It's really that simple.

I do agree that it's nice they didn't do it a month after release and bilk people out of money.  However, that still doesn't address why they said they need more data to address armies that have been broken for half a year, armies that have units that are just as obviously broken as dragons, yet when it comes to the dragons suddenly no data is needed.  Also, bear in mind this is the second nerf to dragons, the first being menagerie getting gutted.  Again, with no data to back it up, and fairly early after the tome was released.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Celestantpants

[Jaskier]

I'd wager a guess that they just didn't plan on doing points changes until this December FAQ, that's all. Rules changes like the Menagerie nerf (and my guess there is that the rule-as-written affecting all dragon mounts was unintended, hence the quick change) are fairly typical of their post-release FAQs/Erratas - Pink Horrors in this new edition are a good example of that. It's probably a safe bet that most of the changes this December FAQ will cover will be points-related rather than rules rewrites. The data excuse is just that, an excuse to not do more regular points changes - for Stormcasts in relation to it, it might seem like they're being targeted but it's really just an issue of timing (recent release - big points changes to all factions come soon after release) like we all know units like Morathi/Sentinels/SDG need points increases, it just so happens GW waited to do them all at once in December around the time the latter are releasing. 

The only thing that's unusual about this particular situation is them releasing a points change early, and it's only because said unit hasn't been released yet - and clearly they were supposed to have been released by now. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Jaskier

[feadair]

A Hammers of Sigmar list with 2 Knight-Draconis and 8 Stormdrake Guards is 3-0 after Day 1 at The Renegade Open AOS GT. It comes at 1960 points, so must be using the new points. 

[lare2]

3 hours ago, feadair said:

A Hammers of Sigmar list with 2 Knight-Draconis and 8 Stormdrake Guards is 3-0 after Day 1 at The Renegade Open AOS GT. It comes at 1960 points, so must be using the new points. 

Using proxies i assume?

[Marcvs]

For those interested in casual gaming, I played against a clubmate this weekend, in what can only be described The Battle of The Suboptimal choices (where you can see a Battlemage on Griffon staring down at a Cygor who is being used as a proxy for a... Chaos Giant!)

This was my list. The aim was to make some intentially subpar choices, use stuff which I rarely get to use (so, not my greatest paintjobs let's be honest) but still have a few synergies and one potential trick (wildform + pennant):

Spoiler

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Stormkeep)
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
Vandus Hammerhand (215)
Astreia Solbright (195)*
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
Knight-Vexillor (120)*
- General
- Pennant of the Stormbringer
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Celestial Blades
Battlemage on Griffon (275)*
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
15 x Vindictors (390)**
- Reinforced x 2
10 x Sequitors (290)**
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Liberators (115)**
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 1x Grandweapons
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
- 1x Grandweapons
Celestar Ballista (140)**
Celestar Ballista (140)**
*Warlord
**Soulstrike Brotherhood
Holy Command: Steadfast March

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124
Drops: 10
 

The battleplan was power in numbers, which didn't have a huge impact cause both of us had quite a lot of battleline units. We called it in t4 when I had retained all my objectives and was now pushing on my opponents' (and had succeded the telport+wildform charge with the vindictors). MVP: the battlemage (or more precisely, battlesorceress) on griffon who turbocharged herself with finest hour, all out attack and flaming beaks to kill 5 bullgors in one go. Worst performers the ballistas (kind of expected, that's why I picked them) but they were useful to absorb some charges and tankier than my opponent thought Another fun moment is 5 sequitors with greatmaces with the buff from Vandus, celestial blades and exploding 6s doing 22 wounds to the chaos giant.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Marcvs

[PJetski]

The Stormkeep Episode 13 - Stormcast Battletome Wishlisting is live! Hear all about MJs plan to cut points for all heroes, the new units we would introduce to the Stormcast range, and how to make Vanquishers useful.

Please note that this was filmed the day before the Stormdrake Guard change... 😅

 

[feadair]

This list came fifth in a 38 player tournament in Norway (4-1):

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos (300)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: Shock and Awe
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Celestial Blades
- Prayer: Translocation
Battlemage (115)*
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Allies

Battleline
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*
4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)*
- Reinforced x 1

Units
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (240)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 115 / 400
Wounds: 81
Drops: 1

[AverageBoss]

On 11/20/2021 at 11:49 AM, Doko said:

Easy solution,i wont buy any dragon so gw gonna learn to not destroy a unit before being released

I mean they are still a flying battleline monster with 18 wounds a 3+, that puts out a ton of rend damage plus a few auto kills and a once per game hero phase move and charge. And they still have built in spell resistance and mortal wound barfing. 

Even at this new cost, they are still very strong, put many other monsters in the same weight class to shame, and will certainly see competative play.

[lare2]

Dragons are up - they're lush. If I wasn't so poor I'd definitely be preordering. Karzai and 3 boxes of mini dragons would do me lovely. Hey ho. Best get saving!

[frenk_castle]

Hi guys,

 

As a Sacrosanct chamber (Lord-Arcanum) fan I mostly play the magic Stormcasts. My go to build, whether I play Arcanum on foot or Gryph-Charger is Master Of magic, Arcane Tome combo. Now GW app lets me pick two spells for mu Lord-Arcanum when I give him the Arcane Tome but the actual rules of the artefacts do not seem to grant that. Is AoS app correct?

Thanks in advance

[Bibob45]

2 hours ago, frenk_castle said:

Hi guys,

 

As a Sacrosanct chamber (Lord-Arcanum) fan I mostly play the magic Stormcasts. My go to build, whether I play Arcanum on foot or Gryph-Charger is Master Of magic, Arcane Tome combo. Now GW app lets me pick two spells for mu Lord-Arcanum when I give him the Arcane Tome but the actual rules of the artefacts do not seem to grant that. Is AoS app correct?

Thanks in advance

Arcane tome : "[...]If the bearer is already a WIZARD, they can attempt to cast 1 additional spell instead."

edit: Nvm, just realised your question was why can he pick 2 spells from the spell lore, not if he could cast 2 spells. I don't know the answer to that question.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Bibob45

[Dogmantra]

The app is pretty unreliable for rules.

Arcane Tome is pretty specific about just letting you cast one extra spell if you're already a wizard. The only reason a non-wizard who takes Arcane Tome gets to pick a spell is because they are granted the WIZARD keyword, and all WIZARDS get one spell lore pick by default. Giving the tome to someone who is already a wizard means they have to either use the extra cast on arcane bolt/mystic shield/a warscroll spell, or you need to take an additional spell lore enhancement.

So to clearly answer the question: the app is wrong. Arcane Tome on a Lord Arcanum won't give it an extra spell pick.