Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[Nizrah]

Don't worry guys! SCE will come in january

[Scurvydog]

So I got a special event coming up in the start of October, was locked into Stormcast a long time ago betting on a new book and making some dragons and such, but this seems a bust now so gotta make due with a sub par book.

The event is rather special, got some special rules but most importantly:

1350 pts list. No uniques/named heroes, no artifacts, traits and host abilities are allowed though. Saves are capped at 3+ (big oof). Factions with no terrain feature can make their own piece and it can be arcane or mystical (this one is important).

So if the book is released the week before it will not be FAQd and allowed, so we got to use the old book with the very balanced and super correct FAQ we got right now! So that is exactly what I will do (and also make a point I guess).

I will focus on what I got, which is a Drakesworn Templar and 4 concussors at the core, super elite and expensive, but not going to buy any more stuff before the new models come out, which was the plan originally...

So I thought to myself to use the expertly written FAQ we got, which changed the translocation prayer to this:

Page 123 – Prayers of the Stormhosts, Translocation Change the rule to: ‘Translocation is a prayer that has an answer value of 3 and a range of 9". If answered, pick 1 friendly Stormcast Eternals unit wholly within range and visible to the chanter. You can remove that unit from the battlefield and set it up again anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from all enemy units.’

So this changes the entire rules for it, meaning no more pesky "it may not move in the subsequent movement phase" nonsense there was before. 

So my plan here is to make this list:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
Drakesworn Templar (450)
- Tempest Axe
Lord-Relictor (110)
Knight-Incantor (130)
5 x Liberators (95)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (95)
- Warhammer & Shield
4 x Concussors (470)
- Reinforced x 1

This way I can use the relictor to teleport the 4 concussors on a 2+, they can then move and wreck something as they please, possibly with +1 to hit with both shooting and combat thanks to the drakesworn (using all out attack on his bow might be a good idea for that hit).

Incantor can either mystic shield the dragon when that moves up the board, or begin doing lightning blast, he is also there to run after the concussors for command abilities (WHY did they not get ELITE!?). Heal+healing storm can hopefully keep the elite units going long enough.

Knights Excelsior is mostly due to the format, thinking that +1 dmg on the Drakesworn helps him with other heroes and monsters, as the Stardrake sucks against those, with bites and tail doing nothing.

I also considered running anvils, as getting that extra fight in the hero phase might make all the difference at some point, but the rest are dirt poor traits. With excelsior if that alpha wipes a unit, having reroll 1s to hit the rest of the game is sweet.

My first list was with only the Drakesworn, then 4 concussors 10 vindictors and 5 judicators, to have those 10 vindictors as a hybrid hammer and anvil, but I also really need heroes and 1 x auto unbind, prayers and magic added is super handy, not to mention babysittiers for the concussors...

 

[Celestantpants]

So I do find it rather odd that the pandemic seems to be only affecting AOS, while 40K seems to keep getting it's releases without so much as a hitch.

[Lucur]

5 hours ago, Celestantpants said:

So I do find it rather odd that the pandemic seems to be only affecting AOS, while 40K seems to keep getting it's releases without so much as a hitch.

That is far from the truth, 40k didn't have a codex release for months before the current two releases. Black Templars for example were originally supposed to get their stuff in march, where they get previews just now and are still weeks away from preorder/ actual release.

[PJetski]

Rend-3 Ballistas

[PJetski]

Longstrikes buffed a lot. 30" all the time, 2 shots, and 3+/2+ instead of 2+/3+ (better because you can buff hits easily)

Sequitors have standardized weapon profiles for hammers and swords. I think we can expect the same with Liberators.

Ballistas 9 wounds and hitting on 4+ but with 2d6 instead of 4d6. Single shot improved to Rend-3.

Hurricanes lost 2 attacks but gained +1 hit. Wonder what changed with their warscroll abilities to justify losing 2 attacks, especially since they didn't gain any Rend.

Edited September 2, 2021 by PJetski

[jhamslam]

23 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Longstrikes buffed a lot. 30" all the time, 2 shots, and 3+/2+ instead of 2+/3+ (better because you can buff hits easily)

Sequitors have standardized weapon profiles for hammers and swords. I think we can expect the same with Liberators.

Ballistas 9 wounds and hitting on 4+ but with 2d6 instead of 4d6. Single shot improved to Rend-3.

Hurricanes lost 2 attacks but gained +1 hit. Wonder what changed with their warscroll abilities to justify losing 2 attacks, especially since they didn't gain any Rend.

Sequitors probably add 1 to save rolls from the shield, to stop 2+ saves

Otherwise maybe 3+ saves are only for Prima....Thunderstrike

[Kaleydoscope]

Thank you for sharing, PJetski

Can anyone remember the point cost for longstrike raptors in the new SCE book from leaks? Doubling the shots is awesome. I did not play them for a long time because I did not like the Anvils of the Hammerhand shenanigans. I like the ballista changes although I despise 2D6 values as I too often roll two ones. I would have preferred 4D3 (and for GW to change all D6 values to multiple D3s instead, but that's just me) but hitting on 4+ compensates for the change to the lost ordinator drop tactic.

[Sleepa]

Hurricane Raptors also improved their wound rolls from 4+ to 3+. If they kept the 3 bonus attacks from standing still, that's actually a huge upgrade!

Ballista seems like it would still need some special rules to be usable with that profile. Although since it has the same melee profile as all our old support heroes, it makes me wonder if those guys are getting significant melee upgrades.

If Sequitors are staying at a 4+, I hope their warscroll abilities improve a bit. 4+ base save is just not that great for their cost.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Sleepa

[Sleepa]

What's everyone's over/under on how ****** Castigators will continue to be? I'm guessing it's like a 90% chance they aren't even niche playable

[readercolin]

Taking a look at the average damage for the new ballistas vs the old:

Rapid Fire mode:
Old Ballista's would put out an average of 3.11 damage to a 5+ save, assuming no buffs
New ballistas will put out an average of 2.33 damage to a 5+ save, assuming no buffs

Ranged Mode:
Old ballista would put out an average of 1.56 damage to a 5+ save, assuming no buffs
New ballista would put out an average of 1.94 damage to a 5+ save, assuming no buffs

Basically, the old ballista was always better than the new one in rapid fire, but the new one is always better than the old one at range.  It evened things out a bit that way.  Interestingly enough, the new ballista does the same damage in either rapid fire or range to a 4+ save, but once you get down to a 3+, the long range attack is just always better.  However, if you get a +1 to hit, the rapid fire is slightly better vs a 3+ than the long range attack.

All of the above being said, even if you take a block of 4 of these guys and give them a +1 to hit (ex. if the Lord-Ordinator still has a +1 to hit bubble), you are still only looking at an average of 12 damage per shooting phase.  The old ballista's with a Lord-Ordinator in rapid fire were putting out over 18 damage per shooting phase, and even then bringing them was a bit questionable.  Its hard to see what GW thinks the roll of artillery in this game is, because it does so much less damage than a similar number of points in a different shooting unit, and the board is small enough and movement fast enough that it is hard to justify something that just straight up does so much less damage.

[PJetski]

A 4x Ballista drop is going to be pretty good if the meta continues to focus on big MONSTER units, especially if the Azyros keeps his re-roll hit1 ability.

[Sleepa]

12 minutes ago, readercolin said:

It's hard to see what GW thinks the roll of artillery in this game is, because it does so much less damage than a similar number of points in a different shooting unit, and the board is small enough and movement fast enough that it is hard to justify something that just straight up does so much less damage.

Exactly. Especially since they aren't mobile and can't ignore LOS. And since they've always been single units, you can't even get value from translocate or the Anvils command ability. 

Without some really impressive warscroll special ability, I can't foresee ballistas being remotely viable in any competitive sense.

2d6 shots is just too damn random to count on without some like of Blast rule like 40k has.

What do you think it would take to make them good enough? Considering their rend, it honestly feels like there's no way we get a MW proc (Outside of curse), and 2D6 shots makes me suspect we won't get some kind of double-tap ability either.

[Sleepa]

7 minutes ago, PJetski said:

A 4x Ballista drop is going to be pretty good if the meta continues to focus on big MONSTER units, especially if the Azyros keeps his re-roll hit1 ability.

Is it going to be better than an equal point investment of Longstrikes? Surely not right?

At least my experience so far with Yndrasta's spear leads me to believe it wouldn't be.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Sleepa

[jhamslam]

4 minutes ago, Sleepa said:

Is it going to be better than an equal point investment of Longstrikes? Surely not right?

At least my experience so far with Yndrasta's spear leads me to believe it wouldn't be.

points dependant right? we KNOW the ballista is 140, longstrikes might easily be 220 and 230

[Sleepa]

Oh damn , did you guys see this? Think this means the Stardrake may also lose the 3+? Looks like Cabbages got -1 save in exchange for 3 more wounds.

*Edit AND massively increased offensive output.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Sleepa

[Sleepa]

6 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

points dependant right? we KNOW the ballista is 140, longstrikes might easily be 220 and 230

True, I guess they could see a sharp increase.

[PJetski]

1 minute ago, Sleepa said:

Is it going to be better than an equal point investment of Longstrikes? Surely not right?

At least my experience so far with Yndrasta's spear leads me to believe it wouldn't be.

Way too soon to make any conclusions or value judgements.

From just these weapon stats we can say that Longstrikes are stronger... but assuming that the Anvils CA is being removed (it really should be taken out, its too much of a force multiplier) then Longstrikes aren't really getting any more powerful. Since they were only used in an Anvils list this is just equalizing the value of Longstrikes across the other Stormhosts. Giving them 2 shots but taking away double tap doesn't make Longstrikes stronger, but it does make them usable in other Stormhosts.

Meanwhile it seems that Ballistas with single shots are much stronger than before and seem to have a good profile for dealing with the current meta.

I like that they are carving out new niches for our shooting units. I hope Hurricanes and Castigators have their own specific niches, too.

[mystycalchemy]

57 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

Sequitors probably add 1 to save rolls from the shield, to stop 2+ saves

Otherwise maybe 3+ saves are only for Prima....Thunderstrike

Doubtful. Sequitors already got a unique rule for their shields in the 3.0 faqs, the 5+ ward. 

I hope they get more than just some extra rend on their basic weapons, but dont be surprised if thats all thats different.

Furthermore, don't expect liberators to be any different either. They'll likely consolidate profiles to 3+/3+/-1/1, but i doubt they'll get a 3+ save and theyre probably just keeping their reduce rend rule. 

[Sleepa]

6 minutes ago, PJetski said:

 like that they are carving out new niches for our shooting units. I hope Hurricanes and Castigators have their own specific niches, too.

I 💯 concur, but it all depends on the execution. I certainly hope all the options have a niche that makes them a reasonable consideration, but the precedent has yet to be set. That said, I'll try not to be all doom and gloom about it. I love Ballistas and always have, so I hope I can find a way to run an artillery battery that feels like an asset and not a handicap.

And agreed that Anvils needs to lose that CA.

[PJetski]

If Sequitors are a 4+ save and cost 15 more points than Vindictors (assuming they keep their 3+ save) then Sequitors will need to have some kind of crazy ability to make up the difference. 

[jhamslam]

8 minutes ago, PJetski said:

 

I like that they are carving out new niches for our shooting units. I hope Hurricanes and Castigators have their own specific niches, too.

If they make castigators good with Soul Bomb RPGs and d3 mortal wounds, god watch out ebay for that mad dash

[Sleepa]

5 minutes ago, PJetski said:

If Sequitors are a 4+ save and cost 15 more points than Vindictors (assuming they keep their 3+ save) then Sequitors will need to have some kind of crazy ability to make up the difference. 

Yeah that's my exact concern. They would need more than twice the offensive output of Vindictors to make me want to give up the save.

[Sleepa]

12 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

If they make castigators good with Soul Bomb RPGs and d3 mortal wounds, god watch out ebay for that mad dash

No kidding. They could make it work too, since they are on units of 3 and never battleline.

Also, I gave a guy six of my Castigators to build and paint for Warcry, because he wanted to start a SCE warband and I assumed I would never need them, lol. So wouldn't my face be red if they end up being great.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Sleepa
Grammar

[jhamslam]

10 minutes ago, PJetski said:

If Sequitors are a 4+ save and cost 15 more points than Vindictors (assuming they keep their 3+ save) then Sequitors will need to have some kind of crazy ability to make up the difference. 

i bet there isnt. Their "extra good ability" is that theyre the only ones with re roll hits and a 5+ ward save battleline in combat.