Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[Champasaur]

1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Paladins would be pretty weak without some means of teleporting in 9" away from the enemy.

I mean to be fair Scions of the Storm is not great unless you’re specifically using Annihilators or using it to keep units alive from an alpha strike. It just doesn’t have the consistent, offensive potential that a first glance might suggest. And I don’t want to bring a Knight-Vexillor just for the 1/game TP. 
 

I think the main reason I don’t want Translocate to change is because it makes a lot of units competitively viable that wouldn’t be otherwise. I enjoy the (competitive) roster flexibility that Translocate brings to the battletome.

[macrake]

We lost Gavriel, so yes, without Translocation as is, our slow elite infantry will not see competitive play outside of a few annihilators with imperatant.

It will probably also push fulminators way down in tiers. They will be counter chargers at best.

Basically it means EVERYONE playing dragons. If they ever come out.

[AR605]

24 minutes ago, macrake said:

Basically it means EVERYONE playing dragons. If they ever come out.

In the Rumour Thread they are stating that we won't see any dragons until christmas, because of problems with the moulds. On one side it's a pity that we have to wait that long for them, on the other side, they eventually survive the winter FAQ that way. They will be hit with the nerf-hammer definitely...

[Scurvydog]

5 minutes ago, AR605 said:

They will be hit with the nerf-hammer definitely...

That was said by Sentinels amd Gotrek as well and look where we are 😛 

If they get more expensive though, Dragon lists will not have the bodies to work and be lacking damage. So with more expensive dragons and a removal of translocate move they could nuke the stormcast book into meh tier as before. Hope that does not happen.

[Champasaur]

24 minutes ago, AR605 said:

In the Rumour Thread they are stating that we won't see any dragons until christmas, because of problems with the moulds. On one side it's a pity that we have to wait that long for them, on the other side, they eventually survive the winter FAQ that way. They will be hit with the nerf-hammer definitely...

I've heard that it also has to do with the global shipping crisis. I've had a box of secondary market 40k models from china that has been sitting still since early July. And with no updates in sight, it could be a while before I get any type of product. I'm sure this has been affecting GW big time.

As much as I am frustrated that we aren't getting our models, I'm not entirely sure it is GW's fault. So I'm gonna extend my patience and hope for the best.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Champasaur

[macrake]

40 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

That was said by Sentinels amd Gotrek as well and look where we are 😛 

If they get more expensive though, Dragon lists will not have the bodies to work and be lacking damage. So with more expensive dragons and a removal of translocate move they could nuke the stormcast book into meh tier as before. Hope that does not happen.

They could probably survive up to a 20 point increase per 2. Hopefully an eventual points adjustment would include adjusting the points on all the overcosted stuff. And maybe they'll even adjust the armies with 55%+ win rates.

But yeah, if translocate gets nerfed and dragons get pointed out of play, I'll be looking at other armies.

[NinthMusketeer]

If we are seriously talking strict competitive sense, old paladins are already sub-optimal; nerfing translocate weakens them but does not affect their status in optimized lists because they already won't be there. The dragons are already so much better on multiple fronts on top of acting far, far more reliably than translocate as well as being more flexible and straight-up better for battle tactics. On optimized list is pushing dragons hard and that means filling the remainder with the cheapest units possible. Though vindictors will win out over liberators unless the point are really tight on fitting something in thanks to sheer efficiency. But paladins? They don't fill the objective camping roll as well as the battleline, they don't fill battleline except in Excelsior, they need a priest around to teleport them (in a meta dominated by armies that can snipe it), the prayer to go off, then they can still get screwed by a good redeploy, unleash hell, or screening. Dragons don't need the first two (but can still use it if they want), have a means to bypass redeploy/unleash by charging in the hero phase, and can fly over screens using their larger coherency to make up for their base size.

On the casual end there are a myriad of ways to utilize paladins, on the competitive end they are inferior. Talk of using them is immediately in the 'specifically less than ideal' category of discussion. Which is fantastic; that's where most of the game is.

[macrake]

35 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

If we are seriously talking strict competitive sense, old paladins are already sub-optimal; nerfing translocate weakens them but does not affect their status in optimized lists because they already won't be there. The dragons are already so much better on multiple fronts on top of acting far, far more reliably than translocate as well as being more flexible and straight-up better for battle tactics. On optimized list is pushing dragons hard and that means filling the remainder with the cheapest units possible. Though vindictors will win out over liberators unless the point are really tight on fitting something in thanks to sheer efficiency. But paladins? They don't fill the objective camping roll as well as the battleline, they don't fill battleline except in Excelsior, they need a priest around to teleport them (in a meta dominated by armies that can snipe it), the prayer to go off, then they can still get screwed by a good redeploy, unleash hell, or screening. Dragons don't need the first two (but can still use it if they want), have a means to bypass redeploy/unleash by charging in the hero phase, and can fly over screens using their larger coherency to make up for their base size.

On the casual end there are a myriad of ways to utilize paladins, on the competitive end they are inferior. Talk of using them is immediately in the 'specifically less than ideal' category of discussion. Which is fantastic; that's where most of the game is.

Well yeah, talking about anything other than dragons and maybe a block of longstrikes is in the sub-optimal category. Thats the point really. If dragons get nerfed hard enough, and translocate is nerfed, there is really nothing competitive enough to fall back on.

Would put SC right where we've been for most of 2.0. Solidly C tier. Our units, in general, are just too expensive and the army offers very little synergy and buffs outside of warscrolls. 3/4 command traits are trash. Scions is close to a non factor. Our subfactions are super low impact.

There is hope for points adjustments though. Few nerfs to top tier armies and some points reductions and we can probably find something workable.

[The World Tree]

2 hours ago, Champasaur said:

I've heard that it also has to do with the global shipping crisis. I've had a box of secondary market 40k models from china that has been sitting still since early July. And with no updates in sight, it could be a while before I get any type of product. I'm sure this has been affecting GW big time.

As much as I am frustrated that we aren't getting our models, I'm not entirely sure it is GW's fault. So I'm gonna extend my patience and hope for the best.

Well quite, GW wants to be selling you models rather than them sitting in a warehouse/container...

[PrimeElectrid]

Take out Translocation and Stormdrakes, and we’re back to a Scions bomb but with Annihilators instead of Gavriel; and like the last 3 years it is entirely at the mercy of TO whim.

[AR605]

3 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

That was said by Sentinels amd Gotrek as well and look where we are 😛

I hope you're right 😁

Translocate just gives us some options (in casual play) and that is exactly what we need. If they're nerfing it, we are bound to some few units that perform ok (outside of dragons) and therefor we will see the same lists over and over again... thought that would eventually end with 3.0 and MSU...

Also could we see the rest of the lineup up for preorder next week?

[JackStreicher]

The biggest issue of the book is the high point costs imo. 
We have really few models on the table, although most of them hit decently they evaporate to MWs which makes the objective game incredibly hard in later turns.

Dragons counteract this a little due to their damage capabilities, their resilience and speed. However I‘m expecting the latter to be merged before the models can be bought

Edited October 3, 2021 by JackStreicher

[macrake]

9 minutes ago, AR605 said:

I hope you're right 😁

Translocate just gives us some options (in casual play) and that is exactly what we need. If they're nerfing it, we are bound to some few units that perform ok (outside of dragons) and therefor we will see the same lists over and over again... thought that would eventually end with 3.0 and MSU...

Also could we see the rest of the lineup up for preorder next week?

I'm pretty much expecting no dragons this year. That way I might be positively surprised.

[Scurvydog]

31 minutes ago, AR605 said:

Also could we see the rest of the lineup up for preorder next week?

Just came back from my local non GW hobby store after picking up 6 longstrikes (yea boy!) and they at least mentioned they had heard nothing about any upcoming preorders for the new dragons, so at this point I tend to believe the rumors about the production being fubar somehow with massive delays. Does not explain why annihilators/Bastian/2 new useless battlelines (sad face) are not being released.

Really anyone saying new model power creep has NOT looked at Vigilors and Vanquishers, what a waste of cool new kits 😛

[Juicy]

14 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Just came back from my local non GW hobby store after picking up 6 longstrikes (yea boy!) and they at least mentioned they had heard nothing about any upcoming preorders for the new dragons, so at this point I tend to believe the rumors about the production being fubar somehow with massive delays. Does not explain why annihilators/Bastian/2 new useless battlelines (sad face) are not being released.

Really anyone saying new model power creep has NOT looked at Vigilors and Vanquishers, what a waste of cool new kits 😛

also honorble mention: Knight arcanum and knight relictor

knight relictor for 5 points more you get+1 to your prayers +3 to your prayer range+1 wound+1 attack

[AR605]

20 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Really anyone saying new model power creep has NOT looked at Vigilors and Vanquishers, what a waste of cool new kits 😛

I'll definitely will get 10x Vigilors to play them as Judicators (only playing with friends, so no problem here). The kit is really cool and have you seen those strings on the bows? 😆

[Kaleydoscope]

14 minutes ago, Juicy said:

knight relictor for 5 points more you get+1 to your prayers +3 to your prayer range+1 wound+1 attack

This. I have no idea how something like this can be intentional or slipping through before releasing that battletome. Why would anyone use the Knight-Relictor besides him being somewhat cool model-wise? I can imagine using one as another count-as Lord-Relictor but besides that... Even when the Lord-R. would rise in points significantly, I would prefer him 80% of the time. Will anyone be using the Knight-Arcanum? I like the model, but I guess it will cosplay a Knight-Incantor or Lord-Arcanum.

[Juicy]

2 minutes ago, Kaleydoscope said:

This. I have no idea how something like this can be intentional or slipping through before releasing that battletome. Why would anyone use the Knight-Relictor besides him being somewhat cool model-wise? I can imagine using one as another count-as Lord-Relictor but besides that... Even when the Lord-R. would rise in points significantly, I would prefer him 80% of the time. Will anyone be using the Knight-Arcanum? I like the model, but I guess it will cosplay a Knight-Incantor or Lord-Arcanum.

yeah this!, i believe if we put 1 person and give him 10minutes he can think of a better rule to make both models worth it in a differant list.

[macrake]

Yeah, the only thing that comes close to powercreep are SDG. The tome itself has very little power.

Half the new models are either trash tier or way too expensive.

[macrake]

The comic part is that they actually had time to nerf quite a few solid things, such as:

Heraldor

Castellant (heal on 6's gone, up in points)

Venator

Azyros

Exorcist

Drakesworn

Evocator reach

Gavriel

Who thought these things needed nerfing?

[feadair]

23 hours ago, PJetski said:

It would certainly weaken the list from its current state, but Ive been playing it with 4" move models (Prots or Evos) and no movement after teleporting for about 4 years now so I don't think it would totally kill it. 

I don't think the Grandslammer list would work though, the 9" charge (even with a reroll) isnt reliable enough

You would not consider changing Protectors to something faster, like Concussors (in the Hallowstrike list)? 

I guess Grandslammer could double down on Annihilators with Grandhammers. Either go to full 9 or to two sets of 6. In the latter case, you would have to drop them on two different turns to get the benefit from Lord Imperatant, though. Alternatively, you could double down on shooting, and include 6 Annihilators, 6 Longstrikes and 15 Judicators. That could be nasty.  

[lare2]

Well, here's to another Sunday. Fingers crossed!

[Marcvs]

5 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Well, here's to another Sunday. Fingers crossed!

Since it seems that the drakes aren't coming out anytime soon, I hope that they release everything else (supposing the issue only affects drakes, so moulds, not shipping)

[lare2]

1 minute ago, Marcvs said:

Since it seems that the drakes aren't coming out anytime soon, I hope that they release everything else (supposing the issue only affects drakes, so moulds, not shipping)

At this point I'd just be really happy with the new Annihilators. 

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, lare2 said:

At this point I'd just be really happy with the new Annihilators. 

for me they are pretty down the list. I have 9 annihilators still on sprue and plan on converting 6 to grandhammers using spare retributors hammers. So, apart from drakes, I guess I am mostly waiting for Bastian (or for them to tell me his base size lol )