Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[PJetski]

31 minutes ago, SugarWaterPurple said:

What is everyone's opinion of the Knight Judicator?  

Hard pass

[AdamR]

52 minutes ago, SugarWaterPurple said:

What is everyone's opinion of the Knight Judicator?  

I do like his helmet...

[SugarWaterPurple]

6 minutes ago, AdamR said:

I do like his helmet...

His helmet reminds me of a certain greek/roman god - hermes?

[PrimeElectrid]

1 hour ago, SugarWaterPurple said:

What is everyone's opinion of the Knight Judicator?  

I like him but needs a 20 point cut to be considered.

[Scurvydog]

3 hours ago, Marcvs said:

 comparing stormcast shooting options to the absolute best shooting units out there is not fair. Stormcast are not built to excel in one area -whether or not the design ultimately succeeds, is a different story of course. 

Well that is exactly it. DoK got a tight knit battletome with some impactful allegiance abilities and strong synergies, although much of this hinges on Morathi being book defining by herself admittedly. As I mentioned I looked at this entirely with a competitive mindset, so these are the lists that will be faced in events and 10 judicators for 400 points just come out short every time against 10 bow snakes for 340 points. 

[CommissarRotke]

21 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

GW sure knows how to get rid of peoples interest XD

legitimately been so long with zero indication of preordering that I've lost my interest in the dragons. I was meh on them at first, then came to love the models while waiting for battletome. but come on now... TALK to us

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, SugarWaterPurple said:

What is everyone's opinion of the Knight Judicator?  

love the model, gryphs retain their warning cry and his profile is nice. needs points reduction like too many of our heroes.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Perhaps it is the bitterness of the wait and now probably not having time to paint up anything new for this falls events, but outside of these new units, there are really few tools in the book to deal with the competitive meta. 

Don't get me wrong, the core warscrolls are pretty good for a lot of older units, but it is just not enough in itself, to be more than 3/2 to 4/1 on the best of days. 

I think this is a fair take. As far as competitive games go, all-rounder armies/decks/characters are usually not top tier, and it definitely looks like that's the kind of army Stormcast are.

Personally, I think the new Stormcast books is the overall best one yet. But not because it's the strongest competitively or the one with the most interesting rules design. Rather, what I think is good is that Stromcast are finally the beginner-friendly faction they were always billed at. As far as I can tell, most Stromcast units have strong warscrolls and their high points mean that you don't have to paint too many models to put a full army together. There are not a lot of synergies, but the faction looks like it should be able to compete and win in more casual environments on the strenght of it's fundamentals alone.

Realistically, I can't see current Stormcast become a top-tier competitive army (outside of dragon spam), but I can see them as a gatekeeper faction. Their lack of synergy means the ceiling Stormcast can reach is not that high, but it also means their floor is not very low, because you can't fail at getting your combo off if there are no combos. *taps forehead*

[Paul_Veyne]

On 9/25/2021 at 3:18 AM, PJetski said:

The Stormkeep #2 is up

Come hang out in our community discord server! https://discord.gg/xHWx4vvS

Right now we are doing a community contest for next weeks episode. The two community lists with the most votes get featured in an upcoming episode about list building

Another excellent podcast! I look forward to catching up on more. 

[readercolin]

So I managed to do a bit of testing with some of the new warscrolls (using proxies for the Relictor and Protectors) and here are my opinions:

Stardrake.  I'm playing one in my Cities of Sigmar list, and I'm not impressed.  Honestly, he should just cost 400 points... maybe less.  Yes, he is 18 wounds, he has a 3+ save, and he can reflect mortal wounds on 6's to save (an ability that I keep forgetting about).  The rend -3 shooting is pretty nice for punching through armor, but the fact that it is a maximum of 8 damage means it is only really good to use as a way to try to snipe support hero's.  The Cavernous Jaws ability means that he really likes going into small elite units (ex. most little stormcast stuff), but his total damage output is just... poor.  Additionally, the wording on Cavernous Jaws is just awkward, and having to say "I'm rolling a die for this model, then one for this model, and then one for that model" and not being able to just say "I'm rolling 3 dice, I chose a model to remove for each success" is just straight up annoying.  If I take him, I can expect an average of 10 damage before saves, not counting whatever the Cavernous Jaws manages to do.  I can get more damage out of 2 fulminators that AREN'T charging.  This is a model that I really, really want to love, but it can't go toe to toe with any other monster in the game.  For cleaning up smaller stuff... why are you spending 500 points for a unit to try to do this?  If I want an underwhelming dragon, I can just bring a Dreadlord on Black Dragon and get a similar damage output for a little over half the points.

Fulminators.  These guys I was impressed by.  If you can get the charge off, they will go HAM on whatever they hit.  If you don't get the charge off, they are still able to dish out decent damage, and you are going to force your opponent to really commit to try to take them off the board as well.  Still a bit weak to mortal wounds.

Protectors.  I put a block of 15 of these guys down, just to see what would happen.  What happened is they chewed through 60 phoenix guard (backed up by an annointed giving them re-roll wound rolls) and only lost 5 models while doing so.  The 2+ save is just ridiculous, especially when you can trivially buff it to ignore rend -1.  Damage wise they are also surprisingly killy for something that I was more throwing down to pretend to be a brick wall.  That being said, I do agree that these guys are only really playable for as long as Translocation stays how it is, and you are going to need to pay a Relictor tax if you want to bring these guys.  Additionally, they are so good with "Unleash Thy Hatred", that you really want to bring that if you are bringing a big block of these guys, which means you can't take the double-tapping from the shooting units, which is something that I think most lists are going to need to be planning to take.  I also think that the normal glaves are better than the maces most of the time, unless you are specifically planning to use the "Unleash Thy Hatred" ability.  To sum it up though, I would say that these guys are a very solid build around.

Annihilators (with shields).  Underwhelming.  Yes, they have a base 2+ save.  But you really don't want to be bringing these guys in groups of 6, which means you are spending 200 points for 9 wounds.  Damage wise, you can expect them to bring 9 damage in before saves, and -1 rend means that it isn't all that reliable.  With a Lord-Imperitant allowing them to drop closer, their charges are a bit more guaranteed, and they can hit a few more things with their mortal wound bubble.  But without it they are just too slow.  The Lord-Imperitant only affecting 1 unit a turn also means you can't just take a few and plan to spam the mortals across the opponents army in a single turn, and trickling them in is rather unimpressive as well.

Lord-Relictor.  Translocation Tax.  Outside of Translocation, I am unimpressed with him, but translocation is so good that I think he is going to be an auto-include in most armies anyways.  This also makes me really, really annoyed that he is only available in the start collecting, and there really isn't anything else in that start collecting that I am interested in.  Anyone have any good suggestions for some kitbashes to make one?

Yndrasta.  I tried her alongside the paladins to see if she would be impressive reviving them.  MSU Annihilators didn't last long enough to be revived (or never got into combat so didn't lose anything).  And the protectors really didn't need a 320 point tax to revive a model when they did so good on their own.  Overall, I think she might be worth it in an MSU paladin spam army, as she can bring models back here there and everywhere.  However, she isn't worth bringing to accompany a big block of dudes, as a single paladin coming back isn't making her worth her points.  Additionally, damage output wise, she is not impressive at all.  Lovely model though.

For reference, here is the army I ran.  Note, I know it isn't a "competitive" list - I was running it to test some new warscrolls, and to test my Cities army against something that pretty much hard-counters it:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Prayer: Translocation

Battleline
3 x Annihilators (200)*
3 x Annihilators (200)*
15 x Protectors (675)*
- 6x Starsoul Maces
- Reinforced x 2

Units
4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)*
- Reinforced x 1

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Unleash Thy Hatred

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101
Drops: 1
 

And Here is the Cities of Sigmar list that I was testing against it (and trying to get a feel for the Stardrake):

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired

Leaders
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)*
- Celestine Hammer
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Anointed (110)*
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory
Sorceress (95)*
- City Role: General's Adjutant
- Lore of Eagles: Aura of Glory

Battleline
30 x Phoenix Guard (525)**
- Reinforced x 2
30 x Phoenix Guard (525)**
- Reinforced x 2
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)**

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Core Battalions
*Command Entourage - Magnificent
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
Drops: 6
 

[Marcvs]

9 minutes ago, readercolin said:

Stardrake.

I'd say the stardrake (with necessary amulet of destiny) is best used as a very survivable bully to throw at your opponent. With the retreat and charge mount trait you can ensure he's not stuck in combats he can't win (tough single models) and his damage, while low for his points, means he can't be ignored. Plus his shooting, as you say, is pretty good to take down small heroes and/or chip down units to make place for translocations.

I agree it could come down a little bit points-wise but I still find he can fill an interesting role. As a monster he helps with battle tactics, and as a very survivable monster and general he denies battle tactics as well.

[CommissarRotke]

40 minutes ago, readercolin said:

Lord-Relictor.  Translocation Tax.  Outside of Translocation, I am unimpressed with him, but translocation is so good that I think he is going to be an auto-include in most armies anyways.  This also makes me really, really annoyed that he is only available in the start collecting, and there really isn't anything else in that start collecting that I am interested in.  Anyone have any good suggestions for some kitbashes to make one?

I figured the Knight Relictor would be possible for this, though the weapon hands are opposite IIRC. much harder to proxy/kitbash this hero than others for sure though  

as always, check ebay or trade groups. Start Collecting boxes are *usually* parted out a ton.

[PJetski]

54 minutes ago, readercolin said:

Protectors.  I put a block of 15 of these guys down, just to see what would happen.  What happened is they chewed through 60 phoenix guard (backed up by an annointed giving them re-roll wound rolls) and only lost 5 models while doing so.  The 2+ save is just ridiculous, especially when you can trivially buff it to ignore rend -1.  Damage wise they are also surprisingly killy for something that I was more throwing down to pretend to be a brick wall.  That being said, I do agree that these guys are only really playable for as long as Translocation stays how it is, and you are going to need to pay a Relictor tax if you want to bring these guys.  Additionally, they are so good with "Unleash Thy Hatred", that you really want to bring that if you are bringing a big block of these guys, which means you can't take the double-tapping from the shooting units, which is something that I think most lists are going to need to be planning to take.  I also think that the normal glaves are better than the maces most of the time, unless you are specifically planning to use the "Unleash Thy Hatred" ability.  To sum it up though, I would say that these guys are a very solid build around.

Lord-Relictor.  Translocation Tax.  Outside of Translocation, I am unimpressed with him, but translocation is so good that I think he is going to be an auto-include in most armies anyways.  This also makes me really, really annoyed that he is only available in the start collecting, and there really isn't anything else in that start collecting that I am interested in.  Anyone have any good suggestions for some kitbashes to make one?

Good post. Wanted to add some thoughts about this:

1. Starsouls are better against 3+ saves or better, but glaives pull ahead against 4+ or worse. If you use Unleash Thy Hatred starsouls are better on any save value. Since (almost) every army is capable of getting to a 3+ Save because of the existence of All Out Defence and Mystic Shield, it is fair to make value judgements against 3+ saves.

2. You can take Unleash Thy Hatred and Thunderbolt Volley in the same list if you gain an extra Enhancement (eg. from a Warlord Battalion)

3. Divine Light is really good, too. Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 25% damage increase, while re-rolling hit rolls of 1 is about 17% damage increase. You can stack them together for a 46% average damage increase, which is greater than the sum of their parts. If you stack them with exploding hit6 (25% damage increase on 3+) you can get a 75% average damage increase compared to just hitting on 3+.

[Nizrah]

1. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Stormkeep)
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lord-Castellant (155)
Lord-Relictor (145)
- General
Knight-Incantor (125)

Battleline
4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Liberators (115)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
5 x Liberators (115)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield

Units
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)
- Reinforced x 1
1 x Stormstrike Chariot (165)
1 x Stormstrike Chariot (165)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Soulsnare Shackles (65)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
Drops: 9

2. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Gardus Steel Soul (160)
Lord-Relictor (145)
Knight-Incantor (125)

Battleline
10 x Vindictors (260)
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Vindictors (260)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Liberators (115)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield

Units
3 x Praetors (165)
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)
- Reinforced x 1

Artillery
Celestar Ballista (140)
Celestar Ballista (140)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
Drops: 10

3. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lord-Relictor (145)
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)
Lord-Castellant (155)

Battleline
15 x Protectors (675)
- Reinforced x 2
5 x Judicators with Skybolt Bows (200)
5 x Judicators with Skybolt Bows (200)

Artillery
Celestar Ballista (140)
Celestar Ballista (140)

Total: 1975 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105
Drops: 8

I made these 3 lists. Love all three. Sadly I gratuated and started work so i dont have time to test any of these.... 

[Tizianolol]

Guys a question about judicators.attacks from shockbolt weapon havnt mw on 6s? Is this an error or its intended? It seems pretty stuoid to me

[Champasaur]

1 hour ago, Nizrah said:

2. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Gardus Steel Soul (160)
Lord-Relictor (145)
Knight-Incantor (125)

Battleline
10 x Vindictors (260)
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Vindictors (260)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Liberators (115)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield

Units
3 x Praetors (165)
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)
- Reinforced x 1

Artillery
Celestar Ballista (140)
Celestar Ballista (140)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
Drops: 10

I am wondering what purpose the Praetors serve here? The only two heroes worth protecting are Gardus and the LRelictor. But Gardus' ward can't stack with Praetors, and the LRelictor can either stay with Gardus or take the mirrorshield for protection from ranged. Is there some hidden tech I'm missing here?

[Nizrah]

18 minutes ago, Champasaur said:

I am wondering what purpose the Praetors serve here? The only two heroes worth protecting are Gardus and the LRelictor. But Gardus' ward can't stack with Praetors, and the LRelictor can either stay with Gardus or take the mirrorshield for protection from ranged. Is there some hidden tech I'm missing here?

Its just to protect Gardus as he is fragile. 

[Scurvydog]

1 hour ago, Nizrah said:

1. Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Stormkeep)
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lord-Castellant (155)
Lord-Relictor (145)
- General
Knight-Incantor (125)

Battleline
4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Liberators (115)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
5 x Liberators (115)
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield

Units
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)
- Reinforced x 1
1 x Stormstrike Chariot (165)
1 x Stormstrike Chariot (165)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Soulsnare Shackles (65)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
Drops: 9

Came up with something a bit similar, but doubling down even more:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (125)*
- Spell: Celestial Blades
Lord-Castellant (155)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Thundershock
4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)*
- Reinforced x 1
4 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (460)*
- Reinforced x 1
15 x Judicators with Skybolt Bows (600)*
- Reinforced x 2
*Battle Regiment
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 1945 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 97
Drops: 1
 

Idea is to ensure whatever the fulminators need to hit dies. Judicators clear out any screens as needed. Fulminators get buffed with +1 save lantern, inspired when needed, all out attack and mystic shield in wave 1, put into place with the relictor translocation. Those guys on 2+/2+ will 1 shot even a mega gargant, and sit there being very sturdy.

At this point the opponent should be extremely scared of wave 2 sitting ready and the first wave will probaly be around looking smug.

The idea is to have a triple super threat here, and still enough wounds to have some board presence. Spells are low cast, magic heavy armies will still unbind them, but they are not absolutely critical, but very nice if they go off.

Mega Gargant armies will be absolutely terrified of this list. It will with no effort murder 1 right from the start, the only chance being a lucky reposition with a failed charge with reroll. Unleash hell is also good here, even 4 dracoths should do around 4 MWs with it.

There is no screening here though, it does not went to get alphaed, which is what the 1 drop is for.

[readercolin]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

1. Starsouls are better against 3+ saves or better, but glaives pull ahead against 4+ or worse. If you use Unleash Thy Hatred starsouls are better on any save value. Since (almost) every army is capable of getting to a 3+ Save because of the existence of All Out Defence and Mystic Shield, it is fair to make value judgements against 3+ saves.

So I agree that starsouls are better against high-save targets.  However, one of the things that I did have trouble with when running them in a big block was maneuvering.  The glaves have a 3" reach, which meant it wasn't a big deal that the attacking units hit from both sides.  The maces however have only 1" reach, and with the massive footprint that 15 of these guys have, it is relatively easy for an opponent to attack against a side and have it take a while to get the maces in place via pile ins.  But, as long as you stagger your lines, glaves can fight 3 ranks deep meaning it isn't as big of a deal when people are maneuvering around you.

Note here, I am not 100% convinced one way or another.  I think I need to try them out a few more times before making a decision on how to build them, and also if I even want to build around them.

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

2. You can take Unleash Thy Hatred and Thunderbolt Volley in the same list if you gain an extra Enhancement (eg. from a Warlord Battalion)

Forgot that you can take it as an enhancement.  That being said, I'm not sure that you can actually viably take both of them in a list.  This is mostly because I'm not sure you can count on Thunderbolt Volley unless you can guarantee you can shoot first, which would require taking the one-drop battalion.  Maybe if you are bringing 15 Judicators in a unit, but definitely not if you are bringing 6 vanguard-raptors.  Now I'm wondering what that force would look like... first pass would be something like this:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- Prayer: Divine Light
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Celestial Blades
- Prayer: Translocation

Battleline
15 x Protectors (675)**
- Reinforced x 2
15 x Judicators with Skybolt Bows (600)**
- Reinforced x 2
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley
Holy Command: Unleash Thy Hatred

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105
Drops: 6
 

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

3. Divine Light is really good, too. Going from 3+ to 2+ is a 25% damage increase, while re-rolling hit rolls of 1 is about 17% damage increase. You can stack them together for a 46% average damage increase, which is greater than the sum of their parts. If you stack them with exploding hit6 (25% damage increase on 3+) you can get a 75% average damage increase compared to just hitting on 3+.

The problem that I have with divine light/bless weapons is that they are yet more prayers.  Since we are already being forced to take Translocation, we now need to either take an enhancement for additional prayers, or we are bringing 3 priests with our army, which is quite the usage of points.  Not saying that they aren't good, especially when you can also go ahead and add Celestial Blades from a wizard/arcane tome.  But I don't think you can afford to take 435 points of priests to buff 675 points of paladins.

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys a question about judicators.attacks from shockbolt weapon havnt mw on 6s? Is this an error or its intended? It seems pretty stuoid to me

the special bow? yeah it doesn't do mw on 6s like the basic bow

[Turragor]

9 minutes ago, readercolin said:

That being said, I'm not sure that you can actually viably take both of them in a list.  This is mostly because I'm not sure you can count on Thunderbolt Volley unless you can guarantee you can shoot first, which would require taking the one-drop battalion. 

This is my main consideration for taking the Lord Commander and running Hammers. I just think that's going to be so powerful once ppl start adapting to what SCE are bringing for opening salvo shooting.

[frenk_castle]

May I ask for your opinion on Lord-Arcanum vs Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger?

Context:

I have both and I am really fan on Sacrosanct chamber. And I have both of these models and I play them as my general almost every game. Now I watched a video on YouTube from Order Academy and he listed Stormcast units in 6 tiers. A, B C, D, E, F. Tier A were Vindictors, new "small dragons" and Lord-Relictor. According to him they are the best Stormcast have now. In tier B he put Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger while he put Lord-Arcanum in tier F. His explanation was. For 40 more points you get more base movement, two more wounds, Chargers attacks, teleport every turn and better spell. His conclusion why would you ever take Lord-Arcanum over Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger.

I do not claim Lord-Arcanum is a better option. I love the model more but I do not claim it is over all better. I just got shocked cause in my view the difference is not that great.

So for my thinking and playing so far I always played both versions as a general with Master of Magic Command trait and Arcane Tome relic.

So Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger has better move, has more attacks, have more wounds and with mount trait can retreat and charge or pile in 6''. Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charge is better there.

Spell I would argue is in favour of the regular Lord-Arcanum. Thunderclap is in my opinion better than healing light. Yes Healing Light is cast 5 over 6 for Thunderclap but -1 to hit until my next hero phase with is two or three, in case of double turn, for a unit in both shooting and melee is worth more the on average 3.5 wounds healed.

Ability. While teleport is super useful I am not sure would you actually risk Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger each turn to jump over the board or would you keep him behind buffing the rest of your army. Lord-Arcanum Aetheric Manipulation seems like a really good way to control a Predatory endless spell like Celestial Vortex, Quicksilver Swords, Geminies of Uhl-Gysh, The Burning Head. You can pretty much fling each spell 20'' on invocation.

So I would argue depending of the strategy you want to play they both can be decent or at the very list they are not 4 Tiers apart. Now I may be overselling endless spells but I honestly do not think one is so much better over the other.

What is your opinion?

Edited September 27, 2021 by frenk_castle

[Juicy]

9 minutes ago, frenk_castle said:

May I ask for your opinion on Lord-Arcanum vs Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger?

Context:

I have both and I am really fan on Sacrosanct chamber. And I have both of these models and I play them as my general almost every game. Now I watched a video on YouTube from Order Academy and he listed Stormcast units in 6 tiers. A, B C, D, E, F. Tier I where Vindictors, new "small dragons" and one more unit. According to him they are the best Stormcast have now. In tier B he put Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger while he put Lord-Arcanum in tier F. His explanation was. For 40 more points you get more base movement, two more wounds, Chargers attacks, teleport every turn and better spell. His conclusion why would you ever take Lord-Arcanum over Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger.

I do not claim Lord-Arcanum is a better option. I love the model more but I do not claim it is over all better. I just got shocked cause in my view the difference is not that great.

So for my thinking and playing so far I always played both versions as a general with Master of Magic Command trait and Arcane Tome relic.

So Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger has better move, has more attacks, have more wounds and with mount trait can retreat and charge or pile in 6''. Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charge is better there.

Spell I would argue is in favour of the regular Lord-Arcanum. Thunderclap is in my opinion better than healing light. Yes Healing Light is cast 5 over 6 for Thunderclap but -1 to hit until my next hero phase with is two or three, in case of double turn, for a unit in both shooting and melee is worth more the on average 3.5 wounds healed.

Ability. While teleport is super useful I am not sure would you actually risk Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger each turn to jump over the board or would you keep him behind buffing the rest of your army. Lord-Arcanum Aetheric Manipulation seems like a really good way to control a Predatory endless spell like Celestial Vortex, Quicksilver Swords, Geminies of Uhl-Gysh, The Burning Head. You can pretty much fling each spell 20'' on invocation.

So I would argue depending of the strategy you want to play they both can be decent or at the very list they are not 4 Tiers apart. Now I may be overselling endless spells but I honestly do not think one is so much better over the other.

What is your opinion?

where i really love my lord arcanum i find it hard to make really good use of him. I always find more use for a knight incantor because offence magic isnt really good without + to cast. Even his base spell gets hard to get of in comp play. Where giving my points into a free scroll always seems super usefull.. 

comparing both arcanums i do like the lord arcanum on foot more. I like to shoot endless spells further and never find the need to move my caster agressivly over the board. I just like to safe those extra 40 points for triumph.

[PJetski]

13 minutes ago, readercolin said:

So I agree that starsouls are better against high-save targets.  However, one of the things that I did have trouble with when running them in a big block was maneuvering.  The glaves have a 3" reach, which meant it wasn't a big deal that the attacking units hit from both sides.  The maces however have only 1" reach, and with the massive footprint that 15 of these guys have, it is relatively easy for an opponent to attack against a side and have it take a while to get the maces in place via pile ins.  But, as long as you stagger your lines, glaves can fight 3 ranks deep meaning it isn't as big of a deal when people are maneuvering around you.

Note here, I am not 100% convinced one way or another.  I think I need to try them out a few more times before making a decision on how to build them, and also if I even want to build around them.

Forgot that you can take it as an enhancement.  That being said, I'm not sure that you can actually viably take both of them in a list.  This is mostly because I'm not sure you can count on Thunderbolt Volley unless you can guarantee you can shoot first, which would require taking the one-drop battalion.  Maybe if you are bringing 15 Judicators in a unit, but definitely not if you are bringing 6 vanguard-raptors.  Now I'm wondering what that force would look like... first pass would be something like this:

...

The problem that I have with divine light/bless weapons is that they are yet more prayers.  Since we are already being forced to take Translocation, we now need to either take an enhancement for additional prayers, or we are bringing 3 priests with our army, which is quite the usage of points.  Not saying that they aren't good, especially when you can also go ahead and add Celestial Blades from a wizard/arcane tome.  But I don't think you can afford to take 435 points of priests to buff 675 points of paladins.

You can definitely make a list work with both TV and UTH. You could do any combination of 6/9 Grandhammers, 15 Judicators, 6 Raptors, and 10/15 Protectors and end up with a pretty strong list because it has the power to delete multiple key units quite reliably. The best list I have seen out of the new book so far is 6 Raptors + 10 Protectors in Hallowed Knights.

6 Starsouls up front and 9 Glaives in the back can be cumbersome if get hit on weird flanks, but you can always Translocate and reposition for a 5" charge. 

You don't have to bring 3 priests; you can get exploding hit6 from other sources, like the Celestial Vindicators. I can definitely justify bringing a 2nd Lord-Relictor, especially since you can stick em with an Arcane Tome like you said. Divine Light is a good accuracy boost that activates on a 2+ and your opponent can't stop it.

You haven't truly experienced Stormcast in 3rd edition until you charge something with 4 Fulminators buffed by +1/+1 and exploding hit6s against an enemy you just debuffed with Divine Light. It will do an average of 81 damage all with Rend-2. 

[Juicy]

22 minutes ago, readercolin said:

So I agree that starsouls are better against high-save targets.  However, one of the things that I did have trouble with when running them in a big block was maneuvering.  The glaves have a 3" reach, which meant it wasn't a big deal that the attacking units hit from both sides.  The maces however have only 1" reach, and with the massive footprint that 15 of these guys have, it is relatively easy for an opponent to attack against a side and have it take a while to get the maces in place via pile ins.  But, as long as you stagger your lines, glaves can fight 3 ranks deep meaning it isn't as big of a deal when people are maneuvering around you.

Note here, I am not 100% convinced one way or another.  I think I need to try them out a few more times before making a decision on how to build them, and also if I even want to build around them.

Forgot that you can take it as an enhancement.  That being said, I'm not sure that you can actually viably take both of them in a list.  This is mostly because I'm not sure you can count on Thunderbolt Volley unless you can guarantee you can shoot first, which would require taking the one-drop battalion.  Maybe if you are bringing 15 Judicators in a unit, but definitely not if you are bringing 6 vanguard-raptors.  Now I'm wondering what that force would look like... first pass would be something like this:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- Prayer: Divine Light
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Celestial Blades
- Prayer: Translocation

Battleline
15 x Protectors (675)**
- Reinforced x 2
15 x Judicators with Skybolt Bows (600)**
- Reinforced x 2
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley
Holy Command: Unleash Thy Hatred

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 105
Drops: 6
 

The problem that I have with divine light/bless weapons is that they are yet more prayers.  Since we are already being forced to take Translocation, we now need to either take an enhancement for additional prayers, or we are bringing 3 priests with our army, which is quite the usage of points.  Not saying that they aren't good, especially when you can also go ahead and add Celestial Blades from a wizard/arcane tome.  But I don't think you can afford to take 435 points of priests to buff 675 points of paladins.

im almost running the same list for a al my 3.0 book games.

lord relictor + castallant+ 15 xbow juds + 15 protectors as main focus.

Yndrasa just aint worth it. Battleshock immume is nice but 12 inch bubble is to short. Not much killing power and again 12 inch bubble to revive a protector is not even worth it in 5 turns. Just get another unit of paladins or more board controll. 
And divine light is cool but the range on it prevents me from getting much out of it. Blessed weapons on the otherhand is lovely.

What i experienced is that 15 protectors dont need a lot of help. Im even thinking of dropping the lord castellant support and just go with them with unleashed hatred and let the opponent deal with them. While i take the board.