Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[SerialMoM]

On 9/22/2021 at 12:19 AM, jeanfluflu said:

for more in depth answers to that question you can take a look at what @PJetski discussed on his podcast here:

there's many good points discussed but general is there's no "better" thing in the void!

2x5 retributors will make your enemy sweat cause that type of small squads can TP easily and destroy a unit (they hit harder than the protectors and will not recquire a lot of baby sitting to be efficient).
they can go on solo missions and dig holes on tanky units, destroy a fragile monster/elite unite...etc

10 man protector squad have another utility, since they are more numerous they benefit better from stacking buffs and can be used to challenge even bigger threats when you combine everything on them (unleash thy hatred, +1 to hit and wound, maybe a prayer to get explosive 6's to hit...etc).
Ideally you want to power them up and send them at the right time on a key target to make it explode and stay in the neighborhood for a while destroying what might challenge them (and with a 2+ save and 30wounds not many people will want to come closer unless they have the tools to deal with you).

Thank you this is one of the best reviews I have seen. Fantastic. I propose that you offer your audio also as podcast via iTunes etc. You will reach more people.

Edited September 24, 2021 by SerialMoM

[CommissarRotke]

38 minutes ago, SerialMoM said:

Thank you this is one of the best reviews I have seen. Fantastic. I propose that you offer your audio also as podcast via iTunes etc. You will reach more people.

I was going to mention that, but on watching it I think the inclusion of slides to display info is worth keeping it in video form

[Warbossironteef]

So, I'm ignoring the dragons for now and I wanted to lean into a tanky, Watchful Guardians Redeemers list. It fits my playstyle and I think Vindictors are awesome sculpts and units.  

• Objective capture - Watchful Guardians and battleschock immunity
• Free buffs - Bastian's free CA's and Vandus Free Buff
• Model Healing - Priest Healing, Yndrastra model recovery, Call for Aid,  BASITAN POTENTIALLY RALLYING EVERY TURN FOR FREE
• Toughness - 3+ across the board. Major Heroes on 4+ ward with lots of healing, Vindictors 6++ and basically always on 2+ armor from CA's
• Movement - Slow but only need a 2+, rerolling prayer from Lord-Relictor to Translocate 

I feel like some variant of this list has real potential. Biggest questions for me is how could I squeeze in a 2nd Lord-Relictor, SCE Priests are just insanely good,. Is Vandus tanky enough to be good?  I feel like it does have enough dmg and 1 block of Vindicators will usually be on 2+ to hit, +1 attacks. 

Hammers - Watchful Guardians 

Call for Aid

LEADERS
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)
Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos (300)
Vandus Hammerhand (215)

-Mount trait - retreat and charge
Lord-Relictor (145)
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
- Prayer: Translocation
UNITS
15 x Vindictors (390)
15 x Vindictors (390)
5 x Liberators (115)
5 x Liberators (115)
TOTAL: 1990/2000 WOUNDS: 111

[readercolin]

9 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

So, I'm ignoring the dragons for now and I wanted to lean into a tanky, Watchful Guardians Redeemers list. It fits my playstyle and I think Vindictors are awesome sculpts and units.  

• Objective capture - Watchful Guardians and battleschock immunity
• Free buffs - Bastian's free CA's and Vandus Free Buff
• Model Healing - Priest Healing, Yndrastra model recovery, Call for Aid,  BASITAN POTENTIALLY RALLYING EVERY TURN FOR FREE
• Toughness - 3+ across the board. Major Heroes on 4+ ward with lots of healing, Vindictors 6++ and basically always on 2+ armor from CA's
• Movement - Slow but only need a 2+, rerolling prayer from Lord-Relictor to Translocate 

I feel like some variant of this list has real potential. Biggest questions for me is how could I squeeze in a 2nd Lord-Relictor, SCE Priests are just insanely good,. Is Vandus tanky enough to be good?  I feel like it does have enough dmg and 1 block of Vindicators will usually be on 2+ to hit, +1 attacks. 

Hammers - Watchful Guardians 

Call for Aid

LEADERS
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)
Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos (300)
Vandus Hammerhand (215)

-Mount trait - retreat and charge
Lord-Relictor (145)
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Artefact: Mirrorshield
- Prayer: Translocation
UNITS
15 x Vindictors (390)
15 x Vindictors (390)
5 x Liberators (115)
5 x Liberators (115)
TOTAL: 1990/2000 WOUNDS: 111

While I think this is a decent starting point for a list, I think it is suffering from a lack of damage - especially applied damage.  What I mean by that is that your Vindictors are going to be doing about 15 damage before saves, or 23 if buffed by Vandus.  Bastian can deal a maximum of 16 though an average of more like ~9 before saves, but really wants to be wading into enemy hordes.  Yndrasta can only do ~12 damage max if everything goes through, and again an average of ~7 before saves.  And Vandus can only deal ~7 or so before saves.

On top of that, you don't have any good way to apply damage from range.  There is no way to pick off priority targets that aren't getting up in your face.  You can't reliably achieve some of the battle tactics, like taking down an enemy monster, or killing the enemy general, or even kill a battleline unit.  Finally, you don't have any big hammer that can smash your opponent in melee, as there isn't anything here that your opponent is really going to be afraid of running into.

What I would recommend is taking out one of your squads of Vindictors (or reducing it to a 10 man squad), and then cutting something else to make room for a true hammer unit.  This can be a squad of 6 Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrikes, giving you the ability to snipe away key support pieces, and you can also bring the ability to double tap with them once per game.  Or you can bring a squad of 10-15 Judicators for similar damage performance, but a lot more wounds to better survive counterfire.  Or you can go ahead and bring a squad of 4 Fulminators for a unit that can charge in and delete just about any unit in the game.  The last interesting option would be either some evocators (on foot) or some Paladins of your choice.

[Warbossironteef]

13 minutes ago, readercolin said:

While I think this is a decent starting point for a list, I think it is suffering from a lack of damage - especially applied damage.  What I mean by that is that your Vindictors are going to be doing about 15 damage before saves, or 23 if buffed by Vandus.  Bastian can deal a maximum of 16 though an average of more like ~9 before saves, but really wants to be wading into enemy hordes.  Yndrasta can only do ~12 damage max if everything goes through, and again an average of ~7 before saves.  And Vandus can only deal ~7 or so before saves.

On top of that, you don't have any good way to apply damage from range.  There is no way to pick off priority targets that aren't getting up in your face.  You can't reliably achieve some of the battle tactics, like taking down an enemy monster, or killing the enemy general, or even kill a battleline unit.  Finally, you don't have any big hammer that can smash your opponent in melee, as there isn't anything here that your opponent is really going to be afraid of running into.

What I would recommend is taking out one of your squads of Vindictors (or reducing it to a 10 man squad), and then cutting something else to make room for a true hammer unit.  This can be a squad of 6 Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrikes, giving you the ability to snipe away key support pieces, and you can also bring the ability to double tap with them once per game.  Or you can bring a squad of 10-15 Judicators for similar damage performance, but a lot more wounds to better survive counterfire.  Or you can go ahead and bring a squad of 4 Fulminators for a unit that can charge in and delete just about any unit in the game.  The last interesting option would be either some evocators (on foot) or some Paladins of your choice.

Good point about battle tactics and damage. I was debating between Yndrastra and Prime. Prime would give you an ability to threaten opponents backfield and forces a lot consideration from opponent on how aggressive they push out. I was in love with Yndrsatra bringing back models, but maybe Prime would be the missing link to this army.

It's obviously a grindy army and would have some bad matchups but overall I think the ability to throw around free buffs from Vandus and Bastian is really strong. 

It would really struggle against LRE and Snakebows (mortals) so maybe it's not in the best position. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Warbossironteef

[CommissarRotke]

3 minutes ago, Warbossironteef said:

Good point about battle tactics and damage. I was debating between Yndrastra and Prime. Prime would give you an ability to threaten opponents backfield and forces a lot consideration from opponent on how aggressive they push out. I was in love with Yndrsatra bringing back models, but maybe Prime would be the missing link to this army.

It's obviously a grindy army and would have some bad matchups but overall I think the ability to throw around free buffs from Vandus and Bastian is really strong. 

It would really struggle against LRE and Snakebows (mortals) so maybe it's not in the best position. 

If you can fit in mobility and/or ranged then it should be a solid castling list

[PJetski]

The Stormkeep #2 is up

Come hang out in our community discord server! https://discord.gg/C7hk88jd

Right now we are doing a community contest for next weeks episode. The two community lists with the most votes get featured in an upcoming episode about list building

Edited September 27, 2021 by PJetski

[SerialMoM]

8 hours ago, PJetski said:

The Stormkeep #2 is up

Come hang out in our community discord server! https://discord.gg/xHWx4vvS

Right now we are doing a community contest for next weeks episode. The two community lists with the most votes get featured in an upcoming episode about list building

Thank you, the discord link does not work for me.

 

I finished listening.It is another great podcast!

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by SerialMoM

[Scurvydog]

Another attempt at a Knights excelsior list. 

I keep going back and forth on Yndrasta, she could be traided in to get a unit of 4 Stormdrakes instead of 2, but she is also a handy utility piece and every paladin she brings back is a big deal and she got the potential to cripple some monsters in their potential output by just engaging.

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Thundershock
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Protectors (450)*
- 4x Starsoul Maces
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Vindictors (130)*
2 x Stormdrake Guard (285)*
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 97
Drops: 1

 

Alternatively double down, however I think having no fast moving units at all is a problem

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Thundershock
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Protectors (450)*
- 4x Starsoul Maces
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Retributors (235)*
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1965 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 94
Drops: 1

[Lucur]

Take out the Retributors for a squad of Palladors and list 2 seems mean BUT you have no way to efficiently remove screens, you'll have to run into them. So maybe drop one annihilator unit or the protectors for some shooting, xbow judicators for example.

[Juicy]

2 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Another attempt at a Knights excelsior list. 

I keep going back and forth on Yndrasta, she could be traided in to get a unit of 4 Stormdrakes instead of 2, but she is also a handy utility piece and every paladin she brings back is a big deal and she got the potential to cripple some monsters in their potential output by just engaging.

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Yndrasta, The Celestial Spear (320)*
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Thundershock
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Protectors (450)*
- 4x Starsoul Maces
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Vindictors (130)*
2 x Stormdrake Guard (285)*
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 97
Drops: 1

 

Alternatively double down, however I think having no fast moving units at all is a problem

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Knights Excelsior
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Prayer: Translocation
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Spell: Thundershock
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Protectors (450)*
- 4x Starsoul Maces
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Retributors (235)*
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1965 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 94
Drops: 1

list 2 is cool but you overdid it on alpha output. If you opponent has 3/4 small screens your whole army cannot react very well.  Also prone to getting stuck of the board and zoned out.

I would recommond to switch wither the retributors or making another unit smaller to put in some screen destroyer units. 

[Scurvydog]

16 minutes ago, Juicy said:

list 2 is cool but you overdid it on alpha output. If you opponent has 3/4 small screens your whole army cannot react very well.  Also prone to getting stuck of the board and zoned out.

I would recommond to switch wither the retributors or making another unit smaller to put in some screen destroyer units. 

That continues to be a problem when I try to make paladin lists. I think the dragon lists are good and paladins are interesting, but Stormdrakes got all those tools to move fast, move/charge in hero phases to avoid reposition/unleash and can also use shooting attacks to clear screens. 

Paladins rely on the expensive delivery mechanism heroes, without a relictor and imperatant, the list is going nowhere, but these heroes cost over 300 points and do very little else, while probably also being way behind the main fighting force at that point.

So while the paladin idea is cool and they can pack a punch, I got a hard time making a list that works well around them. Going with 6 hammer annihilators basically requires the imperatant, then you invested over 600 points into getting an 18 wound unit into battle, which will not really go anywhere after they commit. 

[macrake]

1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

That continues to be a problem when I try to make paladin lists. I think the dragon lists are good and paladins are interesting, but Stormdrakes got all those tools to move fast, move/charge in hero phases to avoid reposition/unleash and can also use shooting attacks to clear screens. 

Paladins rely on the expensive delivery mechanism heroes, without a relictor and imperatant, the list is going nowhere, but these heroes cost over 300 points and do very little else, while probably also being way behind the main fighting force at that point.

So while the paladin idea is cool and they can pack a punch, I got a hard time making a list that works well around them. Going with 6 hammer annihilators basically requires the imperatant, then you invested over 600 points into getting an 18 wound unit into battle, which will not really go anywhere after they commit. 

I agree and don't really see paladin lists doing anything against the competitive lists.

What will 6 grandhammers do against DoK? They wont touch the bowsnakes, because they'll be out of charge range behind screens. 2-3 of the annihilators will die to unleash. Same issue against LRL. And against Seraphon. Against Tzeentch maybe you'll destroy a unit pinks and then those 18 wounds grandhammers get blasted off next turn.

Grandhammers are way too glassy for this sort of one trick thing that most top lists can stop without issue.

Maybe blocks of protectors have a place, being twice as tanky as grandhammers.

I haven't come up with much that could be competitive outside of SDG and SDG+longstrikes.

Maybe a tanky redeemer list with a Phoenix, Gotrek and some shooting.

[macrake]

Might end up playing something like this next tourney unless dragons are announced this week or next.

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Stormkeep)
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:
Gotrek Gurnisson (435)*
- Allies
Lord-Relictor (145)*
- General
- Command Trait: High Priest
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (125)*
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
10 x Vindictors (260)*
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Liberators (115)*
- Heavens-wrought Weapon and Shield
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
- Reinforced x 1
*Battle Regiment
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 435 / 400
Wounds: 83
Drops: 1
 

[Tizianolol]

When new units are out? Next week?

[Kaizennus]

5 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

When new units are out? Next week?

Doesn’t look like any stormcast was announced for upcoming pre-orders. So, at best, there will be some announced next Sunday as pre-order for the following week. I definitely feel bad for SCE players, your release has been moving at a glacial speed.

[Samurai_Eduh]

Hey all, trying to not be that dragon guy and came up with this earlier.  What do you guys think? Any suggestions for battalions, artifacts, etc? Very new to the army. Thanks in advance!

 

Army Name: Storm cast 
Army Faction: Stormcast Eternals
Army Type: Stormkeep
Subfaction: Hallowed Knights
Battlepack: Pitched Battles
Points Limit: 2000 pts

LEADERS 
    Gardus Steel Soul 
        Battlefield Role: Leader
        Points Cost: 160 pts

Celestant-Prime 
        Battlefield Role: Leader
        Points Cost: 325 pts

Knight-Incantor 
        Battlefield Role: Leader
        Points Cost: 125 pts

OTHER UNITS
  Vindictors x10

        Battlefield Role: Battleline
        Reinforced: Once
        Points Cost: 260 pts

    Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows x6
        Battlefield Role: Other
        Reinforced: Once
        Points Cost: 480 pts
    
    Liberators x5
        Battlefield Role: Battleline
        Points Cost: 115 pts

    Liberators x5
        Battlefield Role: Battleline
        Points Cost: 115 pts

    Stormstrike Chariot 
        Battlefield Role: Other
        Points Cost: 165 pts

    Stormstrike Chariot 
        Battlefield Role: Other
        Points Cost: 165 pts
    
    Aetherwings 
        Battlefield Role: Other
        Points Cost: 65 pts

Total Points: 1975 pts
Invalid: Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

Edited September 26, 2021 by Samurai_Eduh
Formatting

[Celestantpants]

Yeah, I understand the pandemic is messing up the release, but this delay is getting absurd.  Perhaps all our models will finally be released about a month before 4th edition launches? 

To be fair though, it DID take GW a loooong time to release all the new models for space marines after their new codex was launched.

[Scurvydog]

6 hours ago, Kaizennus said:

Doesn’t look like any stormcast was announced for upcoming pre-orders. So, at best, there will be some announced next Sunday as pre-order for the following week. I definitely feel bad for SCE players, your release has been moving at a glacial speed.

We will know later today what is going up for pre-order next saturday, it might still be some stormcast, would make sense after having kruleboyz, then 40k orkz, then back to AoS... I hope... Still even then that would be 1 month from tome release to actually getting any of the new models, unless they delay even longer...

 

3 hours ago, Samurai_Eduh said:

Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows x6
        Battlefield Role: Other
        Reinforced: Once
        Points Cost: 480 pts

People seem to love them so much, I just can't see them do very well against so many lists. Sure with all out attack and the 1 time per game double tap, they could make a dent in some things, but there are so many counter that will take them right off the board. For example KO, they will just drop down and nuke them with no effort, 12 wounds on a 4+ save for nearly 500 pts is just a juicy target. I see them snipe off around 500 pts, then die themselves. 

I think the list will lack some punch. Outside the longstrikes there is really nothing hitting all that hard. Liberators and vindictors will not really be able to deal with any threats on their own. Aetherwings are also just "there". The chariots got very little punching power and the heroes are mostly there for support, 

I am just talking competitive gaming here, for everything else this is just fine, I just do not think it has the tools to deal with the big boys out there. For example Sons of Behemat will just walk over this, even if the longstrikes manage to shoot one down, it is unlikely to happen in 1 battle round, even with double shooting, and after that it will be impossible to deal with them before the game is lost. Same goes for Morathi and bow snakes, who will simply teleport a unit of snakes into range as needed and shoot away the longstrikes, while Morathi just tanks. Seraphon will do the same with their ranged firepower, while also contesting objectives way better.

[macrake]

10 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

We will know later today what is going up for pre-order next saturday, it might still be some stormcast, would make sense after having kruleboyz, then 40k orkz, then back to AoS... I hope... Still even then that would be 1 month from tome release to actually getting any of the new models, unless they delay even longer...

 

People seem to love them so much, I just can't see them do very well against so many lists. Sure with all out attack and the 1 time per game double tap, they could make a dent in some things, but there are so many counter that will take them right off the board. For example KO, they will just drop down and nuke them with no effort, 12 wounds on a 4+ save for nearly 500 pts is just a juicy target. I see them snipe off around 500 pts, then die themselves. 

I think the list will lack some punch. Outside the longstrikes there is really nothing hitting all that hard. Liberators and vindictors will not really be able to deal with any threats on their own. Aetherwings are also just "there". The chariots got very little punching power and the heroes are mostly there for support, 

I am just talking competitive gaming here, for everything else this is just fine, I just do not think it has the tools to deal with the big boys out there. For example Sons of Behemat will just walk over this, even if the longstrikes manage to shoot one down, it is unlikely to happen in 1 battle round, even with double shooting, and after that it will be impossible to deal with them before the game is lost. Same goes for Morathi and bow snakes, who will simply teleport a unit of snakes into range as needed and shoot away the longstrikes, while Morathi just tanks. Seraphon will do the same with their ranged firepower, while also contesting objectives way better.

Longstrikes will have to be used carefully, that's for sure. For a less experienced player I'd probably recommend 15 judicators for shooting.

But it's not impossible for the longstrikes to stay alive. If you get 1st turn against DoK, you can shoot off close to 15 bow snakes. That's their points earned right there. If you don't get 1st turn, you can probably hide them with relictor behind some terrain and screen off the teleport.

Same idea with Seraphon, but will vary depending on their list.

Kharadron is hard. You'll have to be super careful with ranges, and prioritize their high range threats, while keeping raptors far enough behind screens. Will need a hard hitting hammer unit to punish them for teleporting close (Gotrek for example).

A big issue with all these high alpha shooting capable top lists is the importance of the 1st turn. If you want to play with shooting, I think you almost have to go for a one drop yourself.

[lare2]

To those who use the app, does anyone know how to get rid of this error message? I've tried multiple hosts but it's always the same message... can't seem to figure it out. 

[Kaizennus]

4 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

We will know later today what is going up for pre-order next saturday, it might still be some stormcast, would make sense after having kruleboyz, then 40k orkz, then back to AoS... I hope... Still even then that would be 1 month from tome release to actually getting any of the new models, unless they delay even longer...

Ah, I thought that the article with the 40k previews was next week's pre-orders. I live in a time zone that is about a day ahead of the UK and sometimes get the timings messed up. I guess the previews will instead be coming up in the next few hours instead?

[Scurvydog]

14 minutes ago, Kaizennus said:

Ah, I thought that the article with the 40k previews was next week's pre-orders. I live in a time zone that is about a day ahead of the UK and sometimes get the timings messed up. I guess the previews will instead be coming up in the next few hours instead?

Yes usually this should be around 5,5 hours from the time of writing this. I have been disappointed so many sundays now though, hoping to see those new models finally lining of for orders... But it would make a lot of sense if at least some was revealed for preorder next week later today.

[schwabbele]

1 hour ago, lare2 said:

To those who use the app, does anyone know how to get rid of this error message? I've tried multiple hosts but it's always the same message... can't seem to figure it out. 

Looks like a bug , have the same will report it. 

[frenk_castle]

1 hour ago, lare2 said:

To those who use the app, does anyone know how to get rid of this error message? I've tried multiple hosts but it's always the same message... can't seem to figure it out. 

I would say it is a bug in the app. "Old" books require you to take subfaction command trait when you select a subfaction. "New" books don't . Validation seems to have been built before new books were available and it only works for "old" books.