Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[jeanfluflu]

4 minutes ago, Champasaur said:

Again, this isn't tournament play. My opponent who is bringing lumineth is only bringing 20 sentinels, so odds are they won't be able to one-shot the raptors. Although I still appreciate the input. 

I'm just more focused on bringing a fun army rather than an army that will have the best chance of winning. That train of thought is why I brought KJudicator and Vigilors.. because they're cool! Sure not everything in my army is top tier, but I still brought the tools to potentially carry the day.

Edit* Also the reason I didn't take Excelsiors is because 10x Protectors is probably not going to be outnumbered by enemy units, and if they are then they probably aren't what I want to be fighting. (Unless they are sentinels and in that case they are dead without the buff)

oh in that case then don't bring the "thunderous volley", you'll one shot teclis and it sure is not very fun.
You can take "unleash thy hatred" to balance your list arround your paladins, and for your stormhost it's up to you then (maybe astral templar to fit the archery/hunter playstyle...Etc)

[Lengthster]

On 9/21/2021 at 7:59 PM, Marcvs said:

with redeploy being a 1d6 you can essentially imagine it as: your movement (maxed at 6")+1d6" must be 9" or higher. Which means translocation+move vs redeploy with paladins is a 5+ chance, a 4+ with 5" move, and 3+ with all others.

Of course this is largely mitigated by the fact that the opponent can only redeploy one unit, so you should aim at translocacting closer to multiple targets, but the one redeployed unit might just be the one you wanted to hit so we're back at the 5+/4+/3+ chances

 EDIT:   @Lengthster let me know if you disagree or think this is not clear!

missed this edit/notification, the example was just unclear to me

[Erdemo86]

This is what i want to try when new Models release. 
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
- Grand Strategy: 
- Triumphs: 

Leaders
Knight-Draconis (255)**
- General
- Command Trait: Master of the Celestial Menagerie  
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
Lord-Relictor (145)**
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (125)**

Battleline
5 x Vindictors (130)**
5 x Vindictors (130)*
4 x Stormdrake Guard (570)*
- Reinforced x 1

Units
3 x Annihilators (200)*
3 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (240)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Warlord

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Call for Aid
Holy Command: Unleash Thy Hatred

Total: 1970 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103
Drops: 5

[Marcvs]

2 hours ago, Lengthster said:

missed this edit/notification, the example was just unclear to me

Perfect, so let me try to systematise it a little bit more. For simplicity's sake I will consider the situation where there are only two units, Unit A (your stormcast unit) and Unit B (the opponent's unit you want to charge).

1) You use translocate. Unit A is now 9" away from Unit B

2) Unit A moves of its movement value (we'll call it MOVE) and gets closer to Unit B. Of course, the closest it can get is 3" away so, again, for simplicity, we will say the maximum value for MOVE is 6".

3) Unit B uses redeploy and moves 1d6" away from Unit A

4) Unit A now charges and rolls a charge of 2d6"

Which gives us the following situation: Unit A will successfully charge Unit B if

MOVE + 2d6 (charge value) >= 9 + 1d6 (redeploy value)

which simplified gives the condition to succeed your charge:

MOVE + 1d6 >= 9

As we saw before, the maximum value of MOVE is 6 (there will be always at least 3" between UNIT A and UNIT B at the end of UNIT A movement), so to meet the condition for a successful charge you need that 1d6 roll to be at least:

5, if your MOVE is 4" (Paladins), giving you a chance of 33% before rerolls (55% after) to succeed in your charge

4, if your MOVE is 5" (normal infantry), giving you a chance of 50% before rerolls (75% after) to succeed in your charge

3, if your MOVE is 6" or greater (everyone else), giving you a chance of 66% before rerolls (88% after) to succeed in your charge

so, in the specific example of translocating paladins, a successful charge is by no means a foregone conclusion, IF your opponent has a CP to spend on Redeploy.

Added bonus info: the percentages we have calculated in this occasion are also the percentages to keep in mind for any situation of charge vs Redeploy (i.e. if you arrive 5" away from an enemy unit which can use Redeploy, you have a 33% chance before rerolls of making that charge)

[PJetski]

15 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

This is what i want to try when new Models release. 
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
- Grand Strategy: 
- Triumphs: 

Leaders
Knight-Draconis (255)**
- General
- Command Trait: Master of the Celestial Menagerie  
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
Lord-Imperatant (175)*
Lord-Relictor (145)**
- Prayer: Translocation
Knight-Incantor (125)**

Battleline
5 x Vindictors (130)**
5 x Vindictors (130)*
4 x Stormdrake Guard (570)*
- Reinforced x 1

Units
3 x Annihilators (200)*
3 x Annihilators with Meteoric Grandhammers (240)*

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Warlord

Additional Enhancements
Holy Command: Call for Aid
Holy Command: Unleash Thy Hatred

Total: 1970 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103
Drops: 5

I think I would rather have an Arcane Tome on the Relictor/Imperatant rather than Call for Aid

[Tizianolol]

Guys a rule question: when I pop my prime,  can my oppomemt use redeploy? 

[macrake]

4 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I think I would rather have an Arcane Tome on the Relictor/Imperatant rather than Call for Aid

And since you're going hammers, I think mirrorshield or drakescale armor is better than amulet on the knight draconis.

[Marcvs]

2 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys a rule question: when I pop my prime,  can my oppomemt use redeploy? 

if you mean when the prime comes down from the sky, no they can't: it's not a normal move and it's outside 9" by definition

[jeanfluflu]

23 minutes ago, macrake said:

And since you're going hammers, I think mirrorshield or drakescale armor is better than amulet on the knight draconis.

drakescale armor is especially nice on big monsters like this but there's more and more MW in the game right now so i'm puzzled.
If there's a way to prevent those by hiding or avoiding the units who does them in close why not but i don't know if i would prefer amulet of destiny.

I'll play more games with the armor though, it seems like the perfect counterplay to things like bloodknigts and rend 2 damages (if you combine mystic shield and all out defense you're on a 3+ reroll save against these attacks with a -1 to get wounded which is great).
 

[Scurvydog]

24 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

-Math-

Great summary, this is also what I have been thinking regarding paladins and is keeping me lukewarm even on the new improved protectors, they are just so difficult to deliver into combat properly. Again we get the solution in the Drakes, they can simply move and charge in the hero phase, completely avoiding redeploy, unleash hell etc. 

This is of course why Gw wants to sell the annihilators, but that requires an expensive character and only works once per turn, which costs a LOT of points. You are well above 400 just to get an imperatant and 3 annihilators with hammers semi reliably into combat, that is 9 wounds worth of dudes. That is just 155 points shy of 36 wounds worth of Drakes that can zip around the battlefield, do monstrous rampages, move and charge in the hero phase, shoot mortal wounds, be at -1 to be wounded all around from 1 command trait and the list goes on. 

Even a 7" rerollable charge is ok, but far from a sure thing, so I just do not see it as a winning strategy consistently. For sure some will do well, but some will also fail miserably, having 480 points of hammer dudes standing around, which takes very little effort to remove at that point.

[CommissarRotke]

18 hours ago, readercolin said:

It mostly depends upon what you expect to see in your games.  If your opponents are primarily going to be playing with a ton of MSU stuff, then you can get away with lances even on 2 man squads.  If you are expecting to face more meaty opposition, then you probably want swords for any 2 man units.

For 4 man squads, lances become a lot more appealing.  A 4 man squad of lances will go through a 20 wound unit with a 4+ save, which makes them somewhat reliable.  They have the maneuverability to get into position and do what they want to do as well, so you don't need to worry too much about getting countercharged when you are trying to get into position.

All this being said, if you are thinking about how you want to model them, I would advise looking into magnetization.  Stormcast tend to be kind of chonky, which means that as long as the difference between the models is just a changed arm, and their arm is likely to be thick enough to hide a magnet.  Additionally, the difference between a stormdrake and the Knight-Draconis is likely to be the entire upper torso section, which means that you can a magnet and be able to have a model that can either be a Stormdrake or a Knight-Draconis.

it does feel like the draconith should be magnetized, but doing that always worries me that i'll mess up the arm beyond repair  though if you're going swords you could probably leave the knight as-is and say it's a regular SDG unit of 2

[JackStreicher]

The German special rule for Protectors is wrong.

The English one grants +1 save

The German one makes attacks directed at them hitting at -1

 

Nice to have bought instant-trash-paper once again

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by JackStreicher

[DanteAlighieri]

Anyone heard any rumblings regarding the possible misprint of not listing Tauralons as a legal unit to take a mount trait?

I actually think not having access to the Celestial Instincts retreat and charge mount trait really hurts the Comet Trail ability. As of right now getting into combat is less than ideal as it will only then trigger when retreating out of combat. Without the ability to re-charge, you're basically stuck with deciding whether to give the +1 to hit or having the Tauralon fight. 

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

The German special rule for Protectors is wrong.

The English one grants +1 save

The German one makes attacks directed at them hitting at -1

 

Nice to have bought instant-trash-paper once again

 

Uff,

thank the horned rat that I prefer the english language over that of the mountain men

[PJetski]

17 minutes ago, DanteAlighieri said:

Anyone heard any rumblings regarding the possible misprint of not listing Tauralons as a legal unit to take a mount trait?

I actually think not having access to the Celestial Instincts retreat and charge mount trait really hurts the Comet Trail ability. As of right now getting into combat is less than ideal as it will only then trigger when retreating out of combat. Without the ability to re-charge, you're basically stuck with deciding whether to give the +1 to hit or having the Tauralon fight. 

Being able to retreat and charge is nice, but Comet Trail only happens when you make a normal move - it will not activate if you made a retreat move.

Send an email to GW (AoSFAQ@gwplc.com) and ask if it is intentional that the Tauralon is excluded from picking mount traits. The more people ask, the more likely they will respond in the FAQ.

[Neverchosen]

16 hours ago, Champasaur said:

I mean double dragon or knight-draconis will always be S tier as long as their points remain the same. I personally am a fan of the double celestar ballistas however. Any of the paladins will probably leave you with too many points to spend. Even annihilators with hammers is 240 which would leave you with 60 points left over

Yeah I might lean into the Ballista build for now as it is cheaper and more varried from my S2D/BCR builds placing some emphasis on shooting. It is a shame I do not have room for a Lord Ordinator but it lets me run the Warmachine Battalion.  I will likely get the dragons down the line but this also lets me play the waiting/savings game and decide between the Knight Draconis and the named dragons.

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, DanteAlighieri said:

Anyone heard any rumblings regarding the possible misprint of not listing Tauralons as a legal unit to take a mount trait?

I actually think not having access to the Celestial Instincts retreat and charge mount trait really hurts the Comet Trail ability. As of right now getting into combat is less than ideal as it will only then trigger when retreating out of combat. Without the ability to re-charge, you're basically stuck with deciding whether to give the +1 to hit or having the Tauralon fight. 

so it's Tauralon missing mount trait and Prosecutor Prime's trident missing extra attack. Anything else we should email the FAQ team about?

[Colgado]

Yeah. Somebody left off the heraldor's whole ability, and misprinted the lord exorcist at 175 pts.

[frenk_castle]

9 minutes ago, Colgado said:

Yeah. Somebody left off the heraldor's whole ability, and misprinted the lord exorcist at 175 pts.

You do not think Exorcist is worth 175 points? But he has a nice staff with a casket on top. That is surely worth 50 points. Joking aside I honestly think both Knight-Incantor and Lord-Arcanum are both better and both are cheaper.

[The World Tree]

Chop the points of the Lord-Exorcist to 125 (same as the incantor!) and it becomes a solid choice. 175 is... mental.

[DanteAlighieri]

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

Being able to retreat and charge is nice, but Comet Trail only happens when you make a normal move - it will not activate if you made a retreat move.

Send an email to GW (AoSFAQ@gwplc.com) and ask if it is intentional that the Tauralon is excluded from picking mount traits. The more people ask, the more likely they will respond in the FAQ.

Oh damn you're right, for some reason I thought retreating and running were normal moves. Well RIP that strategy.

I'll shoot off an email to them as well!

[Dogmantra]

6 hours ago, Marcvs said:

Added bonus info: the percentages we have calculated in this occasion are also the percentages to keep in mind for any situation of charge vs Redeploy (i.e. if you arrive 5" away from an enemy unit which can use Redeploy, you have a 33% chance before rerolls of making that charge)

While your reasoning is mostly good, you can't just cancel the 1d6 on both sides of the equation. It gives you a rough estimate, but is not accurate. 2d6-1d6 works differently from 1d6 alone.

The good news is that with a 4" move you actually have a higher than 33% chance to make a charge before rerolls.

In these charts, A is the chance of either move + 1d6 > 9 or move +2d6 > 9+1d6. B is the chance of it being lower, and tie is of course the chance of it being exactly equal. Sadly the program I am using doesn't have a simple way of counting ties in favour of A, so I've highlighted the failure chance on each chart. As you can see, with 6" (or better) movement, you actually have a 63% chance of making the charge successfully (without a reroll). With 4" movement, you have a 38% chance of making it before rerolls. I also tested with a move of 5 and there it does come out as a 50/50 for either model.

 

 

Just for fun, here are the values for failing a charge with a reroll with the accurate 2d6 model:

So with a 4" move you have a 56% chance of getting in with a reroll, 5" move gives you a 64% chance and 6" gives you  a 72% chance. A fair approximation would be to say that you move up a step, from roughly a third to roughly half your charges succeeding, or from roughly half to roughly two thirds, or from roughly two thirds to roughly three quarters. Not the most elegant approximation but probably a bit easier to remember.

[Freejack02]

3 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

so it's Tauralon missing mount trait and Prosecutor Prime's trident missing extra attack. Anything else we should email the FAQ team about?

Prosecutor Prime's trident isn't an accidental ommision methinks - the hammer Prosecutors specifically cannot benefit from a Grandhammer extra attack on the Prime as well. It seems to be deliberate, but it won't hurt to ask I guess (on both counts)...

[Lucur]

9 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

so it's Tauralon missing mount trait and Prosecutor Prime's trident missing extra attack. Anything else we should email the FAQ team about?

Why Evocators' staves are down to 1" reach maybe. This might ofc be deliberate as well...

[Juicy]

7 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Prosecutor Prime's trident isn't an accidental ommision methinks - the hammer Prosecutors specifically cannot benefit from a Grandhammer extra attack on the Prime as well. It seems to be deliberate, but it won't hurt to ask I guess (on both counts)...

this just blew my mind, its already hard to justify prosecutors. And this even makes it harder. That extra damage on 9+ range didnt hurt anyone. Hated to see this go